Neptune and Narcissism – Further explorations into Astrology and Narcissistic Personality Disorder… and me.

When I first started blogging I did not have a plan for my blog, I still don’t. This is characteristic of the way I am and have always been. I am a Jack of all trades and master of none. I have Gemini on the MC/10th house and Mercury in Aquarius. I start things and start more things, everything is an experiment, nothing ever gets finished it just ends where it ends, when I get bored, feel I’ve done all I can with that, learned what it had to teach, and it leads into something else. I go with the flow of me… whoever me is in the moment.

This could be viewed as a positive thing, but for most of my life it was viewed as negative. What could have been perceived as a talent was perceived as a flaw.

I used to get criticised for being this way mostly by my Narcissistic mother who found everything I did and was to be wrong and had to inform me about it repeatedly. My father was also a Narcissist, but he expressed his disapproval of me by ignoring me a lot. He did not approve of my being alive, my existence was a betrayal. He remembered I existed when he needed to use me for something, usually to get at my mother. I belonged to her, I was her minion, hurt me and you hurt her… or something like that. If you think Narcissists are horrible to those who are not Narcissists, you should see what they are like to each other, and to those who get caught in the middle like a piggy.

Neither of my parents were particularly interested in my scholastic achievements. If I did well or badly at school it was of no concern to them. What did concern them was how my intelligence or stupidity reflected on them. My image was their image. I was an extension of them, but only when they were reminded of my existence. When I was out of sight… I did not exist. I did not exist even when I was in plain view, I was an eyesore, a thing not a person.

My parents were always afraid that I would be seen as being ugly or stupid by their friends and social circle, so I was constantly picked on to become less ugly and stupid, but I had to fail and succeed at the same time. I had to be a genius and an idiot. I had to be beautiful and ugly. Which one I had to be at any given moment was dependent on how my parents were feeling about themselves in that instant. I had to be constantly vigilant. Mistakes were not allowed, unless they were expected to be made because that was what was needed.

Confused? I was. I have Neptune natally in the 3rd house of the mind. I also have dyslexia. Confusion is my mind’s default setting. My confusion made me existentially sad. It also made me very angry. Mars in Scorpio in the 3rd. And intriguingly I have the asteroid Narcissus – 37117 – in the 3rd too, conjunct my natal Mars. Does that make my mind Narcissistic?

When tackling the concept of Narcissism, you have to remember that it is a natural phase of development. We all go through it. It is healthy. It is the moment we move from being an ‘it’ of sorts to an ‘I’. Our identity as an individual, separate from our parents and others, begins to take shape. Narcissistic Personality Disorder happens when a person, a child, gets stuck in that phase and never moves on from it. They are permanently caught between self and other, no boundaries form, and magical thinking is rampant. We find Narcissists fascinating because they still believe what we stopped believing when we grew up. They never grew up. They created a home in the land of fairytales, while we left fairytales behind in make believe which was not real. They remind us of that time, and that’s why we fall in love with them. But all fairytales have a bad side. That’s when we fall out of love with them. But a dark desire holds us hostage. The wish to save what can’t be saved… if we could do it, it would make us special, a knight in shining armor!

So, is my mind a Narcissist? Maybe. It can be very arrogant, but I know it can and keep a watchful eye on it. Not always successfully. Sometimes I have to let it run amok or it turns on me. Scorpions do that. I used to only allow it to sting me, afraid that I might hurt others… that in of itself was quite arrogant, inverted arrogance similar to inverted Narcissism. I spent a bit of time as an Inverted Narcissist. I recognise the signs.

Can Narcissism be found using astrology? Hmmm.

If you’re going to use astrology to pinpoint the potential for Narcissism, surely you should use the asteroid Narcissus, as the disorder is named after the mythological character. But you can’t have Narcissus without Echo.

The asteroid Echo – 60 – is in my 10th house. Does that mean that my social status and career is an echo of others? Who I am and what I do is what others perceive me to be and do? I have no say. I can’t be heard.

Echo is in transit in my 1st house, conjunct my natal Pluto. Narcissus is in transit through my 4th house – family, roots, and early childhood conditioning – the house through which transiting Pluto has almost exited. Pluto is very close to my Sun in the 5th, my creative ego. Pluto natally is linked to my identity – 1st house. It’s funny in a strange way, but this year more than any other in my entire life of about 40 years I have had to repeatedly prove not only that I exist but who I am (and not just to computer programs that want you to prove that you are human). Transiting Uranus has played a part in that too, as Pluto and Uranus are up to all sorts at the moment for all of us because of the square between them.

I do think that looking at the asteroids Echo and Narcissus (sorry Narcissus for putting Echo first, get over it) can be useful, but it is an exercise in creative thinking as not much in the way of official astrological interpretations exist on those asteroids. Some astrologers have touched upon them, but… Hmmm.

Where else can we look for Narcissism in Astrology?

I thought my life would improve once I got away from the suffocating negativity of my family, once I reached that age when a child can emancipate itself from its parents, but when I entered the world beyond family I just found more of the same. Society seemed to agree with my parents that I was useless, not good enough, that I should be smarter, but unfortunately I was doomed to eternal stupidity. Later Society decided that the way I looked physically was ugly, I should fix it, get some plastic surgery, starve myself, but still I would never achieve an impossible ideal of beauty so I was doomed to be eternally ugly too. Society was a Narcissist.

Psychologists in recent years have highlighted the concept that Society is increasingly Narcissistic. When did this rise in Narcissism start? In astrology you look at generational planets to find the influences affecting society and a span of time. Pluto, Uranus, and Neptune travel very slowly through signs and affect generations. I was born during the Pluto/Uranus conjunct generation, at the tail end of it. Those born now will all have Pluto square Uranus in their natal charts, the rest of us will feel the effect of that transit wane at some point, but those born with it will feel it always.

Neptune caught my eye. I often forget about Neptune. It has that effect on me. I went through Neptune square Neptune recently and amongst other things I felt completely insubstantial during that time and yet other aspects felt very substantial, such as my body. Transiting Neptune was in my 6th (still is). I was suddenly very aware that I had one, a body, but what was in that body… Weird, but personal to my chart. I did a post about it vaguely somewhere.

Neptune represents ideals, dreams, and all things spiritual, the collective consciousness and subconscious. From approximately 1984 until 1994, Neptune was in Capricorn. The idealist meets the realist. The dreamer meets the materialist. The spiritual is made manifest. I believe meets I use.

During that time I felt rejected by everyone. I was a reject. Flawed beyond repair. I spent my late teens and early twenties in a very dark place inside. I had nowhere else to go, the world outside was hostile and didn’t want me there. Did not approve of my existence, ergo I did not exist.

The one biggest thorn in my life was that I did not have a dream or ideal to pursue and make real.

That is Neptune in Capricorn’s greatest power – to make a dream manifest in reality. It has an almost supernatural ability to turn was is unreal into something real. And during that time our material reality globally changed dramatically. Suddenly, almost overnight, we all had more stuff, or had access to having more stuff. Money became a god, more so than it had ever been. Money was power, power was money. Material wealth became everything. Having was more important than being, because by having it made you who you were. Status became what you had. Labels labelled you. Your clothes made you. Your job made you. Your house made you. Things made you. Not what you believed or your background or anything else which could not be seen or touched or turned into profit. The arts became big business. Actors and artists no longer struggled to pursue their dream, their dream career became a gold mine for them and for those who worked behind the scenes, the investors and business men and women. Being an actor or artist became a good investment for those who invested in it and for those who made it their career.

My mother was an actress who gave up her dreams to support my father in his when she married him. My father was an artist. Both my parents saw themselves as successful at turning their dreams into reality, and they told life stories of how they always knew from infancy what they wanted to be and they became that. Society at that time, when they were young adults, had just entered a phase where people were encouraged to do exactly that – have a dream and make it real. Go beyond the limitations of the generations before. And many people did just that, and the generations after that kept that ethos going.

When I was a young adult the dream made manifest became even more powerfully enforced. Big business boomed. Entrepreneurs went from nobody to somebody in the blink of an eye, a wave of a magic wand, and then told others how they had had a dream, pursued it, and made it real. How to make your dreams come true also became big business. The power of turning thought into reality. Selling to others how to think properly to manifest thought into something material. So many successful people kept echoing the sentiment – If I can do it so can you, just believe and use that belief, make it manifest.

But I couldn’t. I felt completely out of sync with the times.

Many years have passed, I’ve worked through my darkness (still working on it), times have changed. I have changed with them.

I was reviewing the path of my life, and overlaying it with the astrology of my natal chart. I was interested in astrology during those dark times, but even astrology rejected me then. I’m a Capricorn Sun. You’d think that when Neptune was in Capricorn, that being a Capricorn would have been the ideal. Maybe it was, but… it just seems to be not a good sign to be if you want to hear anything good about yourself.

An extreme if quite common example (I realise this is intended to be humorous, but…) – Urban Dictionary: Capricorn

Once you’re in a dark place, you see everything through dark glasses, and perhaps that is the way it should be. Rather than try to escape the darkness perhaps that is where you need to be, to pass through it and one day emerge into the light, with a new understanding and appreciation for both light and dark.

My blog is in some ways where my light side and dark side meet and dance a delicate dance, spinning together until it is hard to know which side is which, which is how I view it. Yin and Yang. Don’t split the negative and positive, because one can only exist if the other one does too. Merge them. See the flip side and all the shades in between. Perhaps you’ll see what you thought was bad is good and… well, maybe what you thought was good is not as good as you thought it was. That could free you, even if it hurts a bit.

What is this post about? No idea. Lots of possible ideas. I was just contemplating this and that. My blog. My blog stats. Narcissism and Astrology are my top posts. Strange. Is that who I am to you? Is that what you want from me? Is that what I am going to give you? Or…

I have no plan for my blog, not then, not now, probably not ever, it flows as I flow. An experiment… in a life made of experiments (that’s what I call mistakes and not mistakes). That’s it really. Or is it?

Being visible when you’ve spent so much time being invisible is unnerving… yet quite exciting and challenging too. Who am I? Who do you think I am? Am I meant to maintain who you think I am, but who is that? Will it please or displease?

Oh… just let it all hang out and be…

Who I am is always in flux, yet… there is something which does not fluctuate.

I debated not posting this because it is long and messy. But… if my blog becomes about what others want or what I perceive others to want from me, I lose myself, I know I am doing that, and my Pluto side kicks in and rescues me from my folly. My Pluto and Neptune are tied by an aspect. Pluto always saves me when I lose myself in confusion usually in a severing ties manner. If my blog stops being mine, about me for me, accidentally being about others for others… my blog stops being.

Yet, I want this to benefit others as much as it benefits me, because things should flow both ways. Being able to do my blog my way, helps me, and your comments help me, and those who comment regularly have probably noticed how their words inspire mine, so I need to be selfish but also give as I get. My ideal is that you get as much from me as I get from you… and we can use what we get to give and get more… Something like that.

Thank you.

For a post linking Astrology and Narcissism try this: The Psychological Vampire, Astrologically Viewed by Lynn Koiner

If you want to find the asteroids Echo (60) and Narcissus (37117) in your chart, go to Astrodienst, create a guest user profile with your birth data, go to the Extended Chart Selection, enter the numbers of the asteroids at the bottom of the page where there is a space for it and click to generate your chart. While there consider playing with other asteroids too. Compassion (8990) and Talent (33154) are two I have experimented with, with intriguing results. Compassion is conjunct my natal Moon and Talent is in Scorpio in my 3rd (um, oh, dear!). Have fun with it!

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8 thoughts on “Neptune and Narcissism – Further explorations into Astrology and Narcissistic Personality Disorder… and me.

  1. Thank you for your blog.

    I’m sorry for all the pain that you suffered at the hands of parents that didn’t know that you were/are precious..

    In response to the question you asked yourself about being a Narcissist. A Narcissist by definition would never even entertain the question. So, you may have some personality issue’s ( we all do) but, you are not a Narcissist.

    Your present doesn’t have to be a projection of your past.

    Might I suggest you use your wonderful creativity. and design, and make, a life that makes you and others you love, happy!

    G-d bless!

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    1. Thank you for sharing 🙂

      I agree that the present doesn’t have to be a projection of the past, but it is influenced by it in many subtle ways because it is a part of our structure, so it’s worth exploring options, including the ones such as asking oneself if perhaps we’re a narcissist – there doesn’t have to be an answer to this kind of question, it can just be left open as a way to remain mindful.

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  2. Heyy
    I’m happy to have found another with the same query. I seem to be a magnet for narcissists and this time around, thought, interesting if I can peg something in the chart (for them, not me).
    Not that I have so many on hand to compare but the most recent ones each have Sun in Libra and Apollo in Leo. I thought that interesting. Can we say Ego?!
    The placement of Narci itself seemed to have no relation nor aspect to Neptune.
    What are your thoughts?
    Thank you

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    1. Thank you for sharing 🙂

      I read a post by an astrologer the other day which addressed something along these lines with regards to psychopaths rather than narcissists – http://twilightstarsong.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/deep-pockets-and-empty-hearts-rule.html – like they said, trying to pin down a personality disorder in a chart is nigh on impossible.
      “I doubt that it would be possible, or ethical, to identify a psychopath from a natal chart. Too many variables, too much “grey area”, too many unknown factors from the person’s background etc. Given a certain set of life experiences it’s possible that any one of us could display some psychopathic tendencies. Perhaps astrology might indicate those in whom “tendencies” could most likely mushroom into full-fledged psychopathy?”

      Exploring this possibility of using the natal chart in this way is interesting but it is conjecture and to make conjecture into something else would require an exhaustive study. Even a study like that which the Gauquelin’s did, which tried to be extensive, was brought into question because it still only used a relatively small section of people compared to the population of the world to draw its conclusions.

      With astrological placements there is a neutrality to them, each placement has both a negative and positive expression, levels and layers, and overlaps between the two. Then there are aspects to consider, and transits which may trigger them and bring into focus issues which are latent or cause a need to face something.

      One person may thrive under a Saturn transit while another may succumb. A Pluto transit can transform one person for the better while another one changes for the worse. Thriving and succumbing, better or worse – are subjective based on perspective.

      If you have someone whom you consider to be a narcissist – are they really a narcissist or do you just see them as one? Does everyone who knows them agree that they’re a narcissist or is that just your experience of them? Is it their chart or yours or a combination of the two which makes this person a narcissist for you?

      I’ve seen a lot of threads on astrology forums addressing the issue of whether there is an astrological signature for NPD in a chart. The answers tend to vary according to the person answering – and there is no way of knowing if the person answering is or isn’t a narcissist themselves. Narcissists more than non-narcissists tend to be more certain that they can narrow something like narcissism down to a sign, placement or aspect, and thus label people who have it as narcissists without questioning their label.

      I think it’s worth investigating placements with the idea of identifying something like narcissism, checking out ideas – like does narcissus in the chart have relevance to narcissism in our lives – and exploring the charts of those we have experienced as narcissists, as well as our own charts for information on why we may attract narcissists or experience others that way, etc.

      Generational influences are rather interesting – such as the rise of narcissism in society, and now the rise of awareness of narcissism in society – and the corresponding planets and aspects which go with those, usually attributed to outer planets as they move slowly and affect many people.

      I found this snippet of thought from an astrologer rather interesting – http://www.elsaelsa.com/astrology/feeling-seriously-disillusioned/ – as it mentions generational influences, how things were versus how they are now. Saturn square Neptune is a definite bubble burster for everyone’s ego at the moment – certain things are definitely generational learning curves which we also learn personally.

      What we see in others reflects us back to ourselves. The narcissists in my life all have different charts, but the one thing they definitely have in common is that they trigger placements in my chart and the challenges which go with those placements. So understanding my own chart better and myself better is the way to go for me. When dealing with narcissists, past or present, I now ask myself – what can I learn personally from this (the transits hitting my chart, atm, support that).

      We all have all of the signs in our chart – so perhaps the signs we notice are trying to spark up a dialogue inside of us with that part of our chart. Or get us interested in an area we haven’t explored that we need to explore.

      What do you think?

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  3. hello Ursula !

    I am Mika ,from Romania .

    Your blog helped me a lot last year when i was searching informations about Npd .To be short ,two years ago i was discarded by my narcissistic husband .We have a 5 year boy . I was so confused ..and i went to see a therapist . step by step i understood that i was abused by a NPD- the therapist told me that he has a hystrionic/narcisistic disorder .Here in Romania we have little info about this type of disorder .After 6 month in therapy i realised that i was atracted by him becouse i was raised by a narcisistic mother ,I never felt love from her side ..So I am on my way to healing and recovery .
    I want to thank you for your blog ,i found a lot of help here and also in Kim Saeed’s blog . From her i learn to implement NO contact .

    What is bothering me now is the thought that my son can develop this disorder . Searching for his natal chart i saw that he has narcissus in first house retrograde pluto retrograde in first (as you have it ), neptune in pisces in 3 th house (same as you ),the sun in gemeni in 7th square chiron in 3th and capricorn moon . i do not like the ideea of a capri moon (taking into acount that it describe the kind of mother he has ) ,becouse i am a pisces moon / leo sun and i love him very deep .

    I went with him to a homeopat therapist and we came to the conclusion that he has some deep fears for water (swiming ) ,elevators ,small spaces ,bathrooms door ,abandonament . He is taking some homeopatic granules Ambra Grisea ch 30 and I saw some improvement in his behavior .(He is now closing the bathroom door when he is in). With God help ,we will do beter .

    Much love ,
    Mika

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    1. Hi Mika, and thank you 🙂

      Don’t worry too much about your son, he is young, resilient, and stronger than you know. Remember yourself as a child to know him. Besides, he has you beside him, supporting him, there for him, guiding him with your love.

      Your love is powerful!

      Children of narcissists don’t automatically become narcissists, NPD is not a hereditary disease (even if some people say it is, it is not), nor do they necessarily suffer anything more painful than most children do going through the growing pains of life. There are many factors which make a difference, both positive and negative. Your awareness will make a positive difference. Just let your son be a child.

      Don’t worry about the astrology side either – astrology is a tool, a language of sorts, not a definite answer. Astrologically Capricorn Moon is a tough placement for the Moon. The Moon is where we find the emotional nature of an individual. It can represent the mother, the experience of mothering, but that can be interpreted in many ways. Astrology is very metaphorical, symbolic. Overall Capricorn Moons are just more reserved and down to earth with their emotions. They may not express their emotions the way that other Moon placements do – which is why sometimes this placement of the Moon is misunderstood.

      When you read an interpretation, remember the person who wrote is writing from their own natal chart, so a more fiery Moon or openly emotional person will find the Capricorn Moon difficult to understand.

      Your Pisces Moon will interact and understand the Capricorn Moon quite well. So trust your own instincts and feelings. Allow your son’s emotions to evolve in a natural way, a way which is comfortable for him, and just adapt (Pisces Moon is very good at that) to support him without indulgence, just acceptance.

      He’s very young, and will be going through the natural and normal narcissistic phase of development of a human being soon. Don’t worry or interpret his natural and normal childhood narcissism for anything else. Don’t jump to the conclusion that he has NPD. Children are always more narcissistic than adults, and it is healthy for a child to be that way.

      Give him space, love, acceptance and time to discover himself. He’ll be fine. Love him as is and let him love you as is. Acceptance is a powerful kind of love.

      For NPD to develop there needs to be a constant traumatic invasion of the child by a controlling adult, who refuses to allow the child to be a child, to be themselves, and replaces the child’s natural self with the parent’s concept of who the child should be for them.

      You’re not doing that, so everything will be fine. Enjoy being a mother to a wonderful child, and just let nature and loving nurture take its course 🙂

      Best wishes!

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  4. You just described my own life. All my wounds are open now, but thank you for writing this post. I hope to find healing some day. I was raised, no not the word raise, I was made to grow up with narcissist parents and now trapped in a marriage with a narcissist. I usually wonder what bad karma I had to deserve this life.

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    1. Thank you 🙂

      I used to think that being the child of narcissist parents was due to my own bad karma. That I deserved to suffer because somewhere in the past, a past which I could not recall, I had been bad. But then it occurred to me that that view is something which narcissists, especially parents who are narcissists and treating their child badly, would encourage – they want us to believe that what they do to us is our fault, and if it is not just our fault but our bad karma’s fault then they get away with everything they do and have the perfect excuse for it.

      Perhaps what appears to be bad karma, is the bad karma of others for which they do not want to take responsibility… and they try to make us believe that their bad karma is ours.

      Judging whether the karma we have is good or bad is based on a human concept of good and bad… humans often get good and bad mixed up, particularly when those who influence how we perceive good and bad are narcissists.

      Healing often comes from taking what seems bad and turning it into an inspiration for something good.

      Best wishes and blessings!

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