An Upturned Soul – The Long and the Short of It

Damage - BehindTheShyHand by MoonVooDoo


For a while now I’ve been having an argument with myself connected to how I express myself on my blogs. Every now and then this argument crops up in one of my posts.  Every now and then I experiment with my posting style in an effort to reach a solution. Every now and then this debate causes a blockage in my writing arteries and stops the flow of blood which feeds my self expression.

“There is nothing to writing. All you do is sit down at a typewriter and bleed.” ― Ernest Hemingway

It’s an argument which is not solely mine and which affects many bloggers – Long posts or short posts.

When you first start blogging, your focus tends to be on momentum and keeping your blog going after the initial burst of energy starts to wain. Many diverse things can cause a blogger to lose interest in their blog. Outernet life also plays a part. People often begin a blog during a lull in their life. The temporary quiet allows you to hear what’s going on inside of you and your inner urge to express yourself creatively can finally get your attention.

We all have an unique story and we share it through our creative self expression.

“There is a vitality, a life force, an energy, a quickening that is translated through you into action, and because there is only one of you in all time, this expression is unique. And if you block it, it will never exist through any other medium and will be lost.” ― Martha Graham

Finding your means of creative self expression is the first challenge. After that you need a showcase for it, which the internet provides in abundance. Once you’ve found your showcase you want an audience.

For those of you who are shy that may sound terrifying, the last thing you want for your blossoming creations. Big eyes looking at you. Staring at your creations. What if no one likes what you’ve done.

This isn’t really about people liking or not liking your creations, or even liking or not liking you. It is more about life, and the affirmation and denial of it. It is about exposing our real self, our love, our heart, and leaving it open, vulnerable to the world. We are revealing our soft underbelly and inviting others not to use the opportunity to slice us open.

“We all have secret lives. The life of excretion; the world of inappropriate sexual fantasies; our real hopes, our terror of death; our experience of shame; the world of pain; and our dreams. No one else knows these lives. Consciousness is solitary. Each person lives in that bubble universe that rests under the skull, alone.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Galileo’s Dream

That may sound a bit dramatic but when we express ourselves creatively we feel everything more intensely. When we speak our truth our voice sound louder as though we are shouting even when it is a whisper.

At the heart of all of my cyber bubbles, as I call them, is a person seeking to evolve. This goal has kept me on track and moving forward. Expanding my cyber bubble empire rather than contracting. When it all gets too much for me, I pause and wait for the feeling of being overwhelmed and overexposed to pass.

“Let everything happen to you
Beauty and terror
Just keep going
No feeling is final” ― Rainer Maria Rilke

I have spent a lifetime denying my creative self expression. Destroying the children born from the union of my mind and heart in Lilith style. Hiding in plain sight and knowing that is the best place to hide if I want to be unseen. I could blame others for this pattern of behaviour, and there are a few who went out of their way to encourage it, but ultimately the fault is mine. If I own the problem, then I also own the solution. If I hand the blame over to someone else, then I have to wait until someone else solves the problem for me, and I might end up waiting my life away.

“Let’s go.” “We can’t.” “Why not?” “We’re waiting for Godot.” ― Samuel Beckett, Waiting for Godot

Whoever said that opportunity only knocks once must have been deaf and oblivious to the vibrations. Opportunity knocks all the time, but sometimes you have to be that opportunity who goes outside and knocks on your own door.

The New Year is a good time to reassess how we are living our lives, because we press ‘pause’ on life during the holiday season and review the year that we have just experienced and we make decisions about what we want to do with what we have done. We resolve to continue some things. We choose to stop doing other things. We see where a private revolution needs to happen or where a private revolution which has already begun needs to grow.

“The most important kind of freedom is to be what you really are. You trade in your reality for a role. You trade in your sense for an act. You give up your ability to feel, and in exchange, put on a mask. There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.” ― Jim Morrison

Many people review their blogs at this time. Many people start a blog at this time, either a new one having decided to delete an old one or to have more than one, or they start their very first blog. Many return to a blog they started and then took a break from at this time.

I have kept my blog going throughout the holiday season, for personal reasons – once I stop doing something it usually means I’m done with it, whether I want to be done with it or not. Absence makes my heart forget. – but I am reviewing it.

When I first started blogging it was all about me. I was challenging myself and confronting many of my fears and old habits which had once been a help and had then become a hindrance.

One of the biggest fears and challenges I have faced – this is a hard one to narrow down to one – is having an audience.

“My voice is born repeatedly in the fields of uncertainty.” ― Terry Tempest Williams, When Women Were Birds: Fifty-four Variations on Voice

I have always written my posts for myself with myself as audience, which is why they are usually so long. Because to get at the nugget of information which I am seeking I have to let myself talk until I no longer am aware that I am talking and thus no longer censoring myself, filtering what I am saying and hiding my secrets. That’s when I say what I need to hear.

I have been incredibly shy since I was very young. I know why. Part of the why is due to feeling that I bothered people by being alive. I did. But once you’re alive there is not much you can do about it except cease to be that way. Which is a great loss, because your life is valuable. There is only one you, and when you share yourself, you share a great gift with the world.

“If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.” ― Philip K. Dick

The long and the short of it is – I know some of my posts are too long for others to read, but I have to write those long posts. However I can create short versions of those long posts and I am going to endeavour to do so, thus opening my blogs up a bit more to more people and cater to the needs of different audiences while still catering to the needs of my most important audience member, myself.

Why? Because I have benefitted greatly from you, probably far more than you have benefitted from me. And relationships flow both ways.

My path right now in life is to develop my selfish muscles, yet to also keep my unselfish muscles toned. Find a balance and healthy boundaries between self and other.

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming “Wow! What a Ride!” ― Hunter S. Thompson

One last thing… your comments are very important to me, and to those who when they get to the end of a post want to know a bit more, how others experience the issues in a post. Sharing our views is a very valuable element of human interaction.

When I first began to blog, dealing with comments was another challenge to face. I have always been under the impression that I scare people when I focus on them and talk directly to them. I have proof of this, so changing my attitude has been difficult, but you have helped me. I may sound insane sometimes when I reply, but that’s because you inspire me, and I am at my zaniest when I’m inspired.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying.” ― Oscar Wilde, The Happy Prince and Other Stories

You’ve helped me to continue to learn to embrace and accept myself as I am, a very ordinary human, flawed, prone to making mistakes, getting carried away by a thought or emotion, a bit self-centric, and often blinkered… who is unique in her own way. I hope to return the favour and help you to see your own beauty, uniqueness, value and claim your personal power. And express your self and your creativity openly and vulnerably for all to see and share.

“If I know what love is, it is because of you.” ― Hermann Hesse

Thank you.

*The photo I used with this post is part of the series from which the image I use as my avatar on all my cyber bubbles comes. I have altered it in Photoshop – increasing the damage to my skin rather than decreasing it. All tools used to erase blemishes, wrinkles and flaws can be used to accentuate them too. Your damage is your strength. Your pain is not an enemy, it is an ally.


  1. i really like your writing. You should simply write whatever your heart calls you to put to the page. The rest will take of itself. I especially liked the ending of this one- great job.


    • Thank you 😀

      You’re right! I’m just always arguing with myself, which ultimately is a healthy debate/challenge that usually leads somewhere interesting. I’m very connected to my internet self expressions and have learned a lot from doing them. My main focus is to remain centered in myself because I have a tendency to detach from myself and be as authentic as is humanly possible without making it into a mythic quest 😉 In other words, just be as is and that’s that.

      I am just very aware that all those , like you, who have taken the time to read and comment… gosh! You know! This community is… wow! At a loss for words 🙂


      • You know ursula, I was reading a book about healing from your chilhood and the the quintessence of a healed abused child is resilience, whose fondamental pillar is witnessing;that what you are doing, altruistic, brave and full of love for life…on top of this you are a truly talented wtiter and the depths of your posts makes your blog a sort of sacred place for pure food for thought. very inspiring, your audience thanks you from the bottom of their hearts.


        • That’s lovely, thank you 😀

          I think that the best way to heal our inner child and redeem our painful childhood is to turn our pain into a source of inspiration for ourselves and for others, it doesn’t have to be perfect, in fact it’s better when it isn’t… just to show that we all have wounds and pain, and we all deal with it in our own unique way which when shared becomes something beautiful.

          If we share who we are as we are… it’s a way of saying, there is no shame, there is no blame, and pain shared can be a way for all of us to accept ourselves, be ourselves and release ourselves from the curse and it becomes a gift for us and for others.

          That sounds a bit… mushy maybe, but I mean it in a practical way 😉


  2. I love this! Your style of writing is awesome, and I hope one day to get at that level. Healthy arguments with yourself are always good! I especially love how you implemented quotes there. Ernest Hemingway is a personal favorite of mine so you earned kudos by using that one 🙂


    • Thank you 😀

      My writing style is my speaking style, it’s just me talking… mostly to myself 😉 Let your natural voice speak through your writing and your style will be one of a kind! Because there is only one you and only you can express yourself that way!

      That particular Hemingway quote struck a very deep chord with me! He was a genius who didn’t fear sharing the source of his talent with others and encouraging them to find their own because he knew that we each have genius within us which is individual to us, so we aren’t a threat to each other we’re an amazing team when we work together cheering each other to express ourselves. That’s my view of it anyway 🙂

      Let who you are shine, bleed, and you’ll reach a level which is all your own and no one else can do it like you do it!

      It does require a bit of insane self belief, but we’re all born with that (check out a baby’s smile when it’s not just gas) we just need to remember it.


  3. I don’t think wordpress likes me very much, or my interwebs connection is slower than molasses…regardless, I find your blog exemplary in showing what this whole journey is about and therefore, I’m sharing it! Thank you so much for the inspiration and for sharing!


    • Thank you 😀

      My internet connection hiccups like mad, there are times when I go into a meditative trance waiting for a page to load. I’ve worked it into my posting now, if my connection goes when I’m in draft mode I see it as a sign that I should scrap that post or rewrite it 😉

      Hmmm. Maybe Wp is a bit of a Narcissist trying to censor your freedom of self expression and each time you push through its challenge and post your wonderful bursts of brilliance you break another tie which binds you 😀

      Your blog is wonderful!


      • Supposedly I’ve upgraded to some ‘high speed’ and I’ve had dial up speeds faster than this, I am so frustrated! AND I’ve already made four calls to the company about this. Something is awry. WordPress, that’s a whole other pain in the buttocks, WordPress has always loaded very slow for me…it’s one of the reasons I preferred Blogger…nonetheless, I shall ‘grin’ and bear it…thank you for your kind words regarding my blog.


        • I tried Blogger… now that is frustrating (at least I found it that way and the random blog button… no!)! tumblr is easy peasy and lovely, but better for quotes and images. WordPress is by far the best for writers, it has a very supportive community and I really like the official Wp blog (even though I rant at times at their prompts), they offer great advice and the support forum has loads of blogging and tech info. Just wish they’d stop improving the software all the time as catching up on new things and glitches drive me nuts. The reader often looks like tech screw up hell. But usually it is okay.

          Are you on Broadband? It supports greater loading speed, unless your area (like mine) is the last to get improvements. Also if you’re using WiFi then it can suffer from interference, and if your personal WiFi is not password and security protected your bandwidth can be stolen by anyone who can access it which slows your usage down.

          Your blog is great, don’t give up!


          • Allegedly I am on broadband…I do agree WordPress is a very good platform, I just wish it were a lil faster. I’m happy here. I’m stayin!…LOL Hope it’s not too cold out by you. It’s supposed to feel like -15 tomorrow, I don’t even want to think what that might feel like. Stay toasty warm.


  4. Brilliant post. You express yourself so beautifully and clearly. I can relate to so much of what you have written.


    • I think sometimes it’s one of those scenarios where people are afraid to be the one to go first, and if you just take the leap it makes it safe for others to leap too 😀


  5. I was so glad to find this post see a picture of how you look vs your anonymous pic with mostly your arm in view. I know you wrote you made the photo worse not better but I cant see that ,since I don’t know you in person. Its a great picture.
    You wrote about shyness.
    I suffered from debilitating shyness a child & young person . I always felt that I did not have the same right as others to speak my mind and I always felt confused embarrassed and ashamed around people. This made it difficult to function as a normal child in social settings or any setting actually. A My mom would always bring to my attention how sweet I was & how cute my shyness was. I would never use the word cute to describe it- more like handicapping. She just somehow encouraged it since my sense of not being surefooted really made her able to abuse me more. I self actualized alot as a young adult and really pushed myself to work through my shyness by facing situations and forcing myself to deal with them. Today deep down, my first reaction is still to be shy but I am used to pushing through it. I know you also still acknowledge your shyness.
    Definitely keep facing situations where you feel shy & pushing yourself . It helps you grow so much & you very quickly begin to forget that you were ever feeling shy in each situation. This all becomes very liberating & leads to much growth . This has to be done slowly when you are ready to do it -one small step at a time.
    You have lots of braveness to even post ANY pic BTW. Also to run a blog. I would never be that Brave!
    You’re fiercer than you realize!!! Keep overcoming your shy parts & integrating them into your whole self.
    You are awesome.


    • Thank you 🙂

      Blogging is fun and there are many different ways to do it. You can mold it around yourself and what you want to express. It’s a good way to get to know yourself from a different perspective.

      I have many diverse approaches to my shyness, partly because the shyness itself is not always due to the same thing, and is not always the same kind of shy. Each kind of shy needs to be assessed and understood. Sometimes it is an ally, sometimes it’s an obstacle. Sometimes it seems to be an obstacle but it actually is an ally. So, these days I tend to look at the moment in context rather than group it all together, past, present, future.

      Somewhere on my blog there is a sort of rant about the concept that those who are shy must learn to not be shy, as though it’s a bad thing and only a bad thing that needs to be cured. Certain aspects of it may need sorting through, especially if it’s causing us personal distress… but first we need to figure out why we’re distressed about it as we may simply be picking on ourselves for not being someone else rather than accepting ourselves as we are and seeing the shyness as being a part of who we are.

      It’s intriguing because on the internet, which in many ways is a favourite playground of the shy, there’s a strong push in favour of shyness and introversion. Sometimes the pro-introvert stance can get a bit aggressive towards extroverts. Almost like a gang of shy people trying to intimidate those who aren’t shy. Things tend to swing, often to extremes, before they balance out and see the value in both sides, finding a sweet spot in the middle.

      I’m actually not fiercer than I realise 😉 Some of my shyness comes from knowing how fierce I can be and toning it down so as not to overwhelm. When I get passionate about something I’m like a big galumphing bear who hugs people to death 😀

      Narcs love shy people. Perhaps because we appear not to be a threat. We can come across as gentle, sweet, thoughtful, especially to fragile egos that encase deep fear. Since their identity is all on the surface and they judge others by themselves, they see our surface shyness as being who we are, they find it hard to understand that people are multi-faceted. So once a narc sees us as shy, that’s who we have to be for them and never deviate, when we deviate, show other sides of ourselves, they get anxious and try to force us back into our box, the box they put us in.

      Most of the things which we consider to be handicaps, partly because that’s how they feel sometimes, especially when we judge them without understanding them fully or because we’re adopting the attitude of narrow-mindedness towards them (often someone else’s narrow perspective of it), have other sides to them, ones which may turn out to be inspiring gifts and abilities. It really is very much about perspective. And getting to know, understand, and accept ourselves as we are… not how we would rather be.

      It’s all part of our life adventure!


      • Yes, I agree we all have multifacets and it does not define who we are.
        Interesting point about Narcs being attracted to that attribute and then holding us to be be that for them. I never thought of it that way.

        So if a NArc saw you as shy and compliant ( and cherished that about you ) & you begin to act in an independent self assured fashion , they would just get angry with you ( and maybe rage at you ) or push you away since this would frustrate them.They would see you as somehow hurting them with this unexpected behavior. I guess that ties in with their black/white rigid thinking patterns. You’d be like ” what just happened here-.
        what did I do? ” The answer would be— in reality nothing,you were just being your beautiful multifaceted self.

        Ergo – the confusion we feel from the interaction with Narcs. !


        • There’s a book – Nasty People by Jay Carter, Ph.D – which I haven’t read, but of which I came across an extract on a blog – – it’s a good read, very insightful.

          Narcs often use invalidation tactics because it’s stealthy and they can cover their tracks, so if you confront them they can pretend they don’t know what you’re talking about and accuse you of being confused (or worse).

          What you said about your mother and the the way she spoke to you about your shyness – saying it was sweet and cute – when a narc says those things they always have an undercurrent of put-down to them. Do you wonder if perhaps some of your way of seeing your shyness as a handicap of sorts is not perhaps because you picked up on that undercurrent, the invalidation in your mother’s tone when she spoke about your shyness.

          See if you can spot a similar tactic of speech in the other narcs you know – how much of their praise is actually a stealthy put-down.

          Narcs aren’t the only ones who use invalidation, but they tend to use it almost as a default mode of communication. You can spot this technique a lot online, and some people have coined the term – concern troll – for those who start off a comment with ‘I don’t mean to hurt you, but…’ or something along those lines.

          I’ve had a couple of comments on my blog from people who phrase what they are saying as though they are very concerned about other people, that other people will read my posts on NPD thinking I’m an expert, they want to warn others to stay away from me, that I’m misinformed and thus am propagating misinformation, and others should only read what is written by professionals.

          On the surface that sounds fair enough, good advice from a concerned citizen, someone who cares about other people – the undercurrent though assumes a tone of superiority over others – they are assuming that ‘other people’ are stupid and that they are the only one who is clever and can see the truth. They are assuming that those who come to my blog haven’t already checked out the work of professionals, haven’t researched NPD in depth, and don’t have a world of personal experience to guide them.

          They also seem to be oblivious to the fact that this is a personal blog, and that I am writing about my own experiences. The way they phrase their comments reminds me of my parents and the way they used to phrase things, show ‘concern’ for me.

          However NPD does tend to hit us all where it hurts, and I think some of the way things are said is due to pain doing the talking.

          I saw this – – today while exploring a series of referrals from the site to my blog in my stats. I really felt for the person who posted the link to my blog, they got a lot of flack and then had to apologise to those who were upset. I had a moment of wanting to delete my post, the way I used to try and delete myself as a child.

          Sometimes a negative event can make us forget all the positive, even when the positive outweighs the negative by far.

          “what just happened here, what did I do?” – perfectly said, encapsulates the moment!

          At least when things are in writing you can go over them, re-read, re-assess, and get your bearings. Clear the confusion and get a better understanding of it in context.

          When it’s just words in the air, which is how narcs usually prefer to do things, it’s very hard to recall what was actually said and that’s when they get you to doubt yourself, get you to disbelieve your version of an event. They keep at it until only their version is viable.

          When you said you thought I was brave for blogging… I see myself as being foolish. But it’s all grist for the mill of healing, learning to face the things which… it is time to face 😉


          • Nasty People book looks like a good read that would be helpful…I was recently reading info on abuse tactics and one tactic was the abuser keeps talking so much – an extraordinary amount so that you don’t have a chance to process things & hear your inner voice calculating the situation. This denies you proper processing of the situation as it is occurring .And it robs you of the ability to disagree or refuse them as you normally would with proper self talk. I think this is one component that I am realizing existed both with my mom & Narc Doc that go me tangled in this mess without realizing what was happening. Both talk(ed) incessantly.

            “However NPD does tend to hit us all where it hurts, and I think some of the way things are said is due to pain doing the talking.”

            I’ll start calling you Ursula now that we know each other better if that s ok- No one would be here at all on your blog utilizing their precious time unless they were hurting, looking for healing , looking for answers looking for help to a bizarre situation that they have unwittingly found themselves in. Everyone reading is pained in some way. I know I have been going on tangents about the patterns I discovered about my Narc friends and that has offended some readers on your blog who are hurting right now. Just as I wouldn’t want to hear anyone singing the praises of the one who has just unexpectedly hurt me – Narc Doc- I understand their point . I am still traumatized. I work on that trauma every day. I seek to find how dd it happen? What should I do about it? Could I have done something different? Could I have a part of me that allowed this ? And much more. I am suffering from that NArc Attack still. But I seek to learn.
            The Daily Strength incident reminds me of another recent incident. But look, we have to keep in mind that hurt victims of Narcs are HURTING. Especially if they are in trauma mode or stuck with a Narc & unable to pull away or get out right way, they are not in the frame of mind to hear discussions on the interesting nuances of the NArc Way. You & I find it interesting to discover patterns, discuss & learn from. Of course many others find it interesting too. That discussion though is not appropriate for others ( at least at a the moment) I don’t think that invalidates the legitimacy of the blog you run. It is for those who find solace . If not -there’s plenty of other places on the internet to go to find the commardary & solace that’s more fitting. And everyone knows that if you seek clinical definitions and expert advice all you need to do is Google it o find lots of expert information. Harsh words , attacking your credibility? Really? You were raised by 2 Narc Parents & have known many Narcs, you run a discussion board. those are your credentials. You’ll Never please everyone. You’ll also never know BTW how many readers of The Daily Strength actually do look and end up appreciating your blog. They probably wouldn’t post that appreciation there- they’d just come to your blog quietly. I know that’s what I’d do . All the anger & attacking you see in posts there just tells alot about where they are on their journey.
            Ursula, you are Not foolish for blogging. I am blogging on your blog because I was taken to my bed in a fetal position crying & frightened after the unexpected blindsiding Narc Attack. I was just living my normal life then boom! No warning that I was dealing with a disordered person. I have never gone into the details of the way the attack played out but it was cruel , sadistic, & nightmarish. I did not talk to a soul about it for 3 weeks. Then I went hysterical crying in fits. Trauma, flashbacks from my childhood abuse. I had to reach out . I just found your NArc Magnet Post & planned to thank you &move on . I am still here posting every day for almost a month. Putting my personal progress & discoveries out there is not something I’d usually do , but I HAVE to heal I am making progress. I still have a long journey. This blog has helped me 100x more than my therapy which I am also attending. You are providing a service that is connecting a community of people who seek answers. You are facing things bravely. You are healing too.

            “Sometimes a negative event can make us forget all the positive, even when the positive outweighs the negative by far.”
            You said it!


            • I remember one incident very vividly, the physical feeling of it rather than what was said or done. It was one of those moments of narc attack which feels like a shark attack. You’re swimming in the water, enjoying your swim, then WHAM! out of seemingly nowhere, you’re in the jaws of a shark and the still crystalline water is now turbulent and coloured by your own blood. I was in the middle of doing something, my guard was down, my mother came into the room and said something very vicious, I recall feeling as though she had punched or stabbed me in the stomach, I felt suddenly dizzy, ill, winded, and had to sit down on the floor doubled over. My mother was oblivious to my reaction. I remember her eyes and how they were still looking at the spot where I had been rather than where I was. They were hard, beady, yet they saw nothing. She didn’t pause in her talk, like any normal person would when the person they are with goes from standing up to collapsing, she just kept going on her track. I couldn’t hear a word of what she was saying because my ears were ringing. I felt very ill. I wanted to throw up.

              This sort of interaction happened all the time, so I was used to the sudden attacks out of the blue, but usually I was on guard, and detached from myself. I always lived slightly outside of myself, out of body, because I could not allow myself to feel the way I felt. The pain was too overwhelming and I did not have a safe place to process it. But at the time of that incident I had had an experience which had reconnected me with myself, pushed me back into my body, which actually felt great, and so I felt the attack vividly. In an instant I not only felt that attack, but felt all of the previous attacks from the first to that moment. I saw with all of my senses the relationship and my mother as it was. I saw myself in the dynamic too. There was no confusion like there had been in the past, everything was very sharp, in focus, and clear.

              The episode left me reeling but in a very different way from before.

              The narc attack which you experienced, it’s one of those moments in which everything comes together.. It may feel as though things are falling apart, that you’ve been shattered, but actually it’s vice versa, all your shattered and scattered pieces have gathered into a whole.

              If you look at the path you take after such a moment, you realise what a powerful experience it is. It is the source of your healing coming together with the source of your pain. It’s the moment when you know that you have to do something for yourself and pour your energy into nurturing yourself.

              Up until that point most of the work I had done on myself, my attempts at sorting out my issues and such, had been more of a means of escape. I had delved into New Age, psychology, astrology, philosophy, spirituality, etc, in search of a magic formula, a cure-all, a way to think positively, forgive, forget and be happy without having to face the darkness, the negativity, the wound and the pain. I thought I was being responsible, doing things the good and right way. I wanted to be a good person… by plastering over the pain and the wound, rather than really digging into it to get the poison out, facing the darkness inside which is made up of all the hurt we have suffered, our denied feelings, the anger, the powerlessness, our unacknowledged self. Bringing all of what is hidden within out into the open is how we get our personal power, turn the pain into healing.

              I get where the people who react critically to me are coming from. I can see their side of the matter. Their pain is very tangible.

              When someone criticises us, it’s good to take a step back and assess before reacting. There are many levels and layers in all dynamics, and context is important. There’s a balance that needs to be reached – one which validates others and validates yourself too, one which hopefully keeps any form of invalidation out of the equation (including self-invalidation).

              On the internet things can be difficult because we don’t have a real human being in front of us to remind us that there’s a person just like us behind the words. And a lot of the subtlety and nuances of human interaction can be missed – tone of voice, facial expression, body language, sensory cues and clues. Many people surf and interact on the internet when they are alone, so the human whose presence they feel the most is theirs, their feelings and thoughts are the loudest. And communicating through the written word can be limiting when trying to convey something which is complex.

              When something triggers our pain, it engulfs and takes over. Our pain can blind us to ourselves and to others. Our pain becomes our spokesperson. We can hurt others because we are hurting, pass our wound on, without realising what we are doing. If we realise it can be mortifying, and we may not be able to admit it to ourselves, that perhaps we’ve behaved in a similar way to those who have hurt us. If we admit it, it is a powerful insight as it can give us a glimpse into those who hurt us and what may be motivating them. If we don’t admit it then we’re stuck making excuses for ourselves, and perhaps even for those who hurt us.

              Narcs excuse the pain they inflict with the justification that they are hurting – their pain is always greater than everyone else’s, no one else feels pain as they do to the point where no one else feels pain, so it’s okay for them to hurt others but it’s not okay for others to hurt them. They can hurt people and not apologise, but they will expect grovelling apologies for every pain they feel – since they’re in permanent pain, they demand a constant stream of apologies. To be catered to all the time and have balm applied to their wounds.

              I think the thing which irks me the most in the criticism directed towards those of us who share our stories about narcs, our experiences, thoughts and perspectives… is when that criticism sounds like the sort of thing a narc would say in the way a narc would say it.

              Like you, I’ve researched the professional and clinical approach to NPD. I assume that everyone who happens upon my posts has done the same. They happen upon my posts because they are researching NPD from as many different angles as they need to find what they are looking for for themselves. We are guided by ourselves, we know what it is we need, we’ll know it when we find it, and we’ll keep looking until we find it, and search some more even when we’ve found it. What we find is really about what we have within us. The words of others can help us find our words. The way others heal themselves can help us to find our own way of healing ourselves.

              The professional view is very informative, but there is something missing – the personal angle, the experience lived. Before I ventured into blogging and social media, I lurked and surfed. Finding the blogs of victims of narcs telling their stories gave me a something I could really relate to, deeply personal insight. Experts tend to be detached, and often only focus on the person with the disorder rather than those affected by the person with the disorder. The stories of those who’ve lived with a narc gave me the view which I had, allowed me to see from their perspective something which was close to my perspective. Their pain and experience shared helped me with mine.

              Sharing with each other is a very valuable part of human interaction and relationships.

              One of the hardest aspects of dealing with being the victim of a narc, is that the narc still seems to dominate no matter what. The talk is still all about them, focus is still on them, and again we get lost in their shadow. Our story grows silent, we talk about them, not about ourselves. We talk about what they did to us, not about what we did to ourselves.

              One of the things I love about talking with you is that you are aware of yourself, you are examining your side of the story, your part in the dynamic of narc and vic of narc. And by doing this, you’re finding your personal wisdom and power. You’re seeing how much power you have in the relationship, and seeing how much the narc needs you more than you need them.

              You have very brave eyes. They’re unflinching in their gaze. That’s a trait which I admire 🙂

              And I’m very glad that you decided to become a part of this community, very grateful too!

              Thank you very much 🙂

              Oh… and yes, yes, call me Ursula 🙂


              • I think the shark attack analogy would be useful is describing one of these attacks to someone who can’t understand what it s like. Thats part of it and then I would add the dementions of cruelty , viciousness, sadisticness , terror, engulfment, and the important selfishness, betrayal , & violation of trust aspects .
                The attacks you describe inflicted by your mom , are similar to those I experienced with my mom. Often , random, & out of nowhere.I dont know if your mom used weapons. Mine pulled hair out of my head, used metal mashed potato mashers, wooden spoons, her hands. I often wished shed break one of my bones so someone could find out what was going on. But she always knew just when to stop. Lot of red marks all over my body but never enough evidence. That part frustrated me cause when got her way in that aspect. I used to run & lock myself in the bathroom when she went to get her weapons to beat me with but she’d terrorize me to open the door trying to trick me that she would not beat me or telling me it would be worse if didn’t open the door.
                You said you tended to disassociate yourself from your body at times. That is common- I did too, There are many classic coping mechanisms that people in this situation instinctively use to survive. That is very interesting how you got to a point where you integrated yourself & got yourself in a position to cope in an even stronger way. I remember as I grew older I made it a strategy to force myself not to cry & not give her the satisfaction she got from it. unfortunately by the time I was a teenager I started to suffer fro severe anxiety attacks at night for seemingly no reason. When I went to therapy to figure it out I realized there was abuse and that I had stuffed all my emotions down to survive,
                When I think of this all now , it almost feels like she got off on it – I dont think it was sexually ???- but it may as well have been. She loved the perverse release it gave her. She loved seeing me running for life, tortured, and best of all crying from my soul. So hard that I could not catch my breath. So beaten that I did not know if I would survive each time. To add it to it – the supposed infraction I committed was never identified- what did I do???
                Yes I understood her pain , she was raised in an F’d up situation. She did not know herself at all. She was very F’d up.
                All very confusing.
                Professionals generally receive only overall clinical training in this disorder. Unless it is their specialty or they have some inside experience they may not regonize the subtleties of the interactions. It echos several other disorders. I wasted years and years of never getting the proper diagnosis of what was happening.


                • Understanding the perspective of the narc gives you an idea as to what they get out of what they say and do to you. It can be very difficult to see things from their point of view for many reasons – why would we want to – but it can be done because we all have a narcissistic side as it is a human trait, we just don’t get stuck in that phase like someone with NPD does.

                  Tap into any area of yourself where you’re rigidly stuck and can’t see anyone else’s view but your own. It can be something positive, but it’s more useful if it is something negative since narcs are stuck in pain/fear. So a situation where you’re certain someone else did you wrong, is wrong, and you can’t accept any other perspective on it but your own, you see yourself as right and in the right, and that’s that. Now amplify that so that it is everything, it is the only way you relate to the world. Add compulsion to it – so anything about which you are compulsive, even something small, amplify the compulsion, add that to the fixed viewpoint. That’s a narc’s perspective. They can only see things from their point of view, it is rigid, they are stuck in it, it is also compulsive. Now take away your ability to be self-aware, to self-reflect, to think things through internally, to sort through your feelings internally, logically, with reasoning. Imagine you have no sense of self without other people. You need others to know who you are, to know how you’re feeling, to acknowledge every thing you think, feel, to make it real. Add to it a sense of urgency, intense stress and pressure – you need to make others see things exactly as you see them, feel it, acknowledge it, by any means necessary. Your existence, identity, everything, depends upon it. You need release, you’re going to blow. You explode and get release – you feel better. That’s that, doesn’t matter that you’ve obliterated others so that you can feel better. Obliterating others makes you feel important, real, powerful. Their destruction proves your existence and superiority.

                  It’s kind of like that. For narcs everything they say and do, it’s all about them and feeding their urgent needs. Their every need, no matter how small, is urgent and as big as the biggest need. Everything is exaggerated.

                  If you meet a charming narc, chances are they’ve just obliterated someone somewhere in their lives. They are often at their most delightful after they’ve offloaded their pain onto someone else. Sometimes that someone else is you. They can go from raging hound from hell to happy good samaritan in seconds. It depends on the narc and their particular story and pattern.

                  You can, with enough personal experience of the narc and their pattern, predict the cycle – children of narcs often try to break the pattern by predicting it and attempting to stop it from going through its stages – never works, but it occasionally does which offers false hope. They’re often replaying their own wound, what made them narcs. Doing it over and over again, step by step, in some ways trying to get a different ending to the same scenario, never understanding that the ending is always going to be the same.

                  Did you say you’d read Alice Miller? She gives an insightful view into the parent/child dynamic, in abusive dynamics in particular. How a parent tends to replay with their child what was done to them by their parent when they were a child – but this time they get to be in the parent role, they get to have the power over the powerless child. That’s what they get off on – the power and the adrenalin.

                  Narcs were indeed F’d up by their parents, who were probably F’d up by theirs. The F’d upness is handed down like an heirloom. This be the Verse by Philip Larkin sums it up perfectly.

                  There was something I wanted to ask you – how are your relationships with non-narcs affected by your relationships with narcs. Do you protect those you love and with whom you have really healthy relationships by perhaps working out certain things with the narcs.


                  • The part where you discuss how it physically made you feel was very telling of the terror you experienced. The part of how your mom seemed not to notice your pain , her eyes being cold and being oblivious to your reactions not reacting to you in a normal fashion shows her state of mind during those episodes. I experienced the same kind of dynamic with my mom. She was the hunter and I was the hunted target. There was no stopping her or negotiating by logic to stop the attack. Ironically, if my mom got wind of someone else hurting me in any way . She would be on a mission to put them in their place and protect me. ( Again, more contradictions adding to the confusion) You talked about an audience. This is a new concept for me. I guess my audience were my siblings who were not getting the attacks. My sister as a matter of fact kissed my moms ass and also egged me on in order to stay on her good side and avoid being the target. I was not as calculating as my sis and I dint think I even thought of that strategy at the time. I was very innocent as a child and not calculating at all. You & i discussed the physical attacks but that was only half the vicious verbal part was the other half. Vileness towards me would pour from her mouth. She annihilated me verbally.
                    Were attacked by both your mom & dad since the both are narcs? I wonder if Narc dads tend to attack the children or if the tend to focus attacking the spouse?
                    . I only have one Narc girfriend . She’s known me since just before I left my moms home to start out on my own. We bonded since she & I both had abusive moms ( not sure if her mom is a narc, but very well may be) This friend is very sensitive, I have to be careful sometimes not to be too harshly honest , she needs to have things gently pointed out. She is also very sensitive to me & my feelings and very thoughtful to me. She can also be VERY selfish, self centered – which she is by nature. I tend on the other hand to be too giving & forgiving by nature,. Lots of contradictions. All are accurate but all mutually exclusive. I guess its that which draws me to her. We’ve been friends for almost 30 years ( not continuously) When I have a crisis – she tends to leave me.Then when its over she comes back & is very apologetic about it and tries hard to make up for it. That is her biggest flaw. We get along well and can spend hours and hours pouring our hearts out to each other.
                    This relationship does not effect my current family in any way that I can think of..
                    NArc Boss is gone and NArc Doc is still there but he is different. He is not a shiny personality like the others. .He is a dark person. Someone I would not normally be really gravitating to . The only thing he has in common with the others is that you can tell hes overcome alot.

                    When you said , ‘ Tap into any area of yourself where you’re rigidly stuck. etc…….’
                    Well that’s him. I barely know him. He kind of seduced & tricked me into having some kind of connection with him. And somehow got me into a trance state where I was addicted. Keep in mind its all implied- we’ve never spoken outside our office visits . He took things too literally and now he is acting like we have something going when we dont in reality. He decided to drop his mask almost immediately after the brief seduction attempt & its very very ugly underneath. He talks badly about others and is mean. Not only that but he is literally a different persona . I though he had s split personality when I saw this . He was literally frantic and all that came to mind was acting a patient in a psychiatric hospital pacing around.That was the first time.
                    . Next time was in the middle of a procedure with his nurse was in the room. He must have been pissed at me for a while over the fact that I decided to see a different specialist for some other procedures I needed. He took it personally , which I did not know . That is when he decided to blow, right in the MIDDLE OF MY PROCEDURE. I was reclined and helpless. The fact someone else was in the room made me less on guard & It added to the shock. You would expect someone to confront or take something out on you if you were alone , not in front of others. ( BUT as you say, its an audience) I tell you this now since I figured out the basis for his anger , but in the moment & for the next few weeks. I did not even know what his anger was about.. It appeared to be baseless . He never stated it outright, he just said a read between the lines statement.

                    I am planning an exit strategy .I am not into abuse . the interactions in the meantime are so dramatic, I’m trying to figure out how this all happened in just a few short months.


                    • The basics of a narc attack are – it’s all about them – which is partly why they are so confusing and distressing for us on the receiving end because it seems to come out of nowhere and we try to make sense of it using our own personal points of reference – what did I do. Thing is – you did nothing. You don’t figure into the narc’s frame of reference, no one does. They need to vent because of pressure build up and so they do. Wham! But the attack doesn’t really come out of nowhere, it’s been gathering pace, like a storm front, inside the narc and they need a lightening rod to set it off and release the pressure and so they find one.

                      Their preferred ‘receptacles’ (that’s us) of their venting – the people onto which they dump their shit – are those they see as being harmless to them in some way. People who are weak – as in those who care for them. People who are powerless – as in their children – who have to put up with their shit no matter what, who are dependent upon them in some way and whom they control. In a patient doctor scenario – for a narc doctor the patient is similar to being a child and the doctor is the parent who has dominion over the child. The narc is saying – you have to put up with me because you have no choice as I have the power.

                      They can, in some ways, only vent at those who can’t run away from them because they are terrified of being abandoned.

                      So, you being in the middle of your procedure is the perfect time for a narc to vent because you can’t abandon the narc and you’re a captive audience – the captive audience includes his assistant who also could not leave the room. In fact the rage may have been more for the other person than it was for you. It can be hard to tell who it is truly aimed at because ultimately it is all about the narc and whatever demon they are fighting in that moment – which is often someone else, someone who hurt their ego, someone whom they did not and could not confront, so they take their fury out elsewhere – when they feel safe and not liable to be challenged.

                      Much of what goes on with a narc is a knock on effect. They stew and obsess over things – slights, comments they didn’t like, misunderstandings, etc – for weeks, sometimes longer, then they explode because they can’t resolve it inside, they can only release the pressure outside. Once they’ve vented they feel better and are sometimes euphoric – which can be weird if you’ve experienced their wrath only to watch them giggle and be joyful afterwards as though nothing happened, and they look at you and ask you wtf is wrong with you, why are you lying on the floor bleeding, crushed and in pain, life is to be enjoyed, gosh you’re so negative while they’re the picture of positivity.

                      Once you let a narc get away with attacking you, they know you’re a safe place for them to vent and spew their shit, and they’ll do it again and again and again, until you put a stop to it. Don’t be fooled by their ability to be apologetic and very charming afterwards, that’s just playing to an audience, buttering you up for a slide into their hell again.

                      With a narc the exit strategy is to just leave if you can. No explanations, excuses or anything. Just go. Do what they would do. If he was done with you, he’d discard you and leave you completely flummoxed as to why.

                      Of course I don’t know what kind of doctor he is and why you’re seeing him and so there is that, and finding a new doctor if you’re in the middle of treatment for something can be stressful, difficult, and may be counterproductive for your health. As long as his medical ability is professional and what you need, then there is that to consider too. You have to put your own well being first.

                      The narc family dynamic is different for every narc family and children of narcs. Certain things are similar – it’s hell and we come out of it having to undo, if we can, the damage which they have done and have to reparent and reprogramme ourselves.

                      A narc parent who protects their child – is not protecting their child, they are protecting themselves. We, the children, may see the behaviour as them being protective of us, defending us, which can be confusing and seem like a contradiction as they are usually operating from a base of them versus us, so suddenly being a part of their side versus another side is like suddenly being cared for after being uncared for for so long – for us their gesture is a shard of love from them to us. What it actually is, is them making everything about themselves as usual. They protect us when they think an attack on us is an attack on them. It’s all about them, and we, as their children, are an extension of them, an object which they possess. They can do what they want with us, to us, no one else can because we are private property of the narc. They would behave the same way if someone broke a vase they valued, stole a trophy they treasured, spilled a drink on their carpet, or criticised their fashion sense. At least that’s the way it was with my parents. However if someone, let’s say, criticised me while complimenting them, then they’d side with the critic. Narcs have no loyalty to anyone but themselves. Everything in every way is all about them.

                      There is one particularly valuable lesson which narcs teach us… to notice and appreciate those who are not narcs 🙂


                    • God Bless You Ursula for getting it, getting the situation & getting me.
                      You are right about the Narc parents protecting the child in reality to defend themselves since the child is only an extension of them.Their motive is not as it appears to the child.( LOVE) Also that the parent would turn on the child at any time with others if that was convenient & self serving in the situation. My mom bonded with her many many girlfriends over the ” oh lets talk for hours about what these Efen kids do to us. They suck the life out of us. Poor me. ” Her admirers loved & adored her. She would get herself &the whole family invited to these admirers homes for lunch then dinner into the late night for coffee& dessert because they were so engaged listening to her bullshit- they could not get enough. This scenario happened often with many. On weekends we were always visiting someone all day & night. Then during the week they chatted with her on the phone for hours while she ignored us.

                      I can only give the overview of Narc Doc due to that is a blog, but there are lots more details Very dramatic.I did fight back as happened . I yelled back. he stopped it. Then we had a brief disagreement about something else. He admitted I was right, shook my hand ( as if to apologize- which I had told you) and left
                      I got some more words in. It was drama drama drama. So , I was thinking the nurse was there , its f’d up but I’m ok.
                      Then later the shock started to hit me that I was attacked in a reclined position. ( Feels Scary) Then flashbacks to childhood abuse.
                      Then when I confided to a couple of people including the therapist a few weeks later- they did not think it was so bad- especially when they hear that a nurse was in the room. The reaction is more like he was probably having a bad day or he may be sensitive or have a problem with the other doctor he was tamtruming about. Also I was told that I my have said something to make him mad- which I may have inadvertently. This explanation is true- partially.
                      I think the explanations could be accurate but if you look at the situation from the NPD lens, you can see what REALLY happened – A Narc Attack.
                      When you know that “audience” concept to NPD – it changes the way you see the story . Thank you for teaching me that . It is a huge piece of the puzzle.
                      That is why I am so grateful I found your blog when I did.
                      If I did not find you & find out about the NArc Ways I would have gone misunderstood once again about abuse , which was the story of my childhood. People cannot picture what you are saying- it sounds exaggerated to them. ( But the nurse was there, a doctor would not do that to you, I’m sure you mom loved you, shes always such a great host to everyone. )

                      I have not and will not go back alone.
                      BTW – he did NOT like this when found out I was not coming alone to my next appt. & went so far as to frantically personally call me & get me to come back to see him alone. ( that was very telling, he has never called me prior so I knew exactly why he was calling me- )

                      Prior to that he tried once to get me to text him but I turned that down ( creepy) & I saw his disappointed reaction
                      I have to go back a few more times , for complicated medical reasons to finish up. I’m fearful inside. Then sometimes the denial kicks in & I think of all the ways he knew how touch me emotionally. I want to forget it all happened and get more of the connection good feeling. Lots of cognitive dissidence.
                      I was reading something though about abusers that said not to confuse Intensity with Intimacy. I need to really get that lesson into my head.
                      Very Intense . Lots of Drama, Drama, Drama on both sides. We are both very intense.

                      Did read This be the Verse by Philip Larkin very good & true. On my moms side yes generational abuse with her mom all broken families . My dad also from a fd up broken family. Also read Alice Miller some good points. THX.



                    • Thank you 🙂

                      The important thing to take from this narc situation/relationship is what you learn about yourself. Because ultimately his issues are his issues – he’s a narc, everything is about him, and narcs confuse everything – so what they take out on you is probably nothing to do with you at all. More often than not they vent one place about something occurring elsewhere. And you won’t necessarily ever know what any of their ‘crazy’ is about.

                      So you focus on yourself. What this triggers, what this stirs, what it evokes. Are these old patterns repeating? Do I draw these things to me, these people to me, if so, why? Is there something I need to resolve within myself, if so, what? Exactly what you’re doing. That’s the value of it. What you learn and discover about you. The narc is not your concern. But the narc affecting you is your concern.

                      Doctors have to have an assistant in the room when they are with a patient – this is due to certain doctors abusing their position. If you feel the need to also have someone accompany you to the appointment. This is alarming, but you know that and you have every right to do what you want and need to do – so what’s his problem with it. Any other doctor would not question such a choice, and may even encourage it as having someone with you offers support, especially if the procedure is for something which is distressing… or anything really, it’s your business, why is he trying to butt in and control it – what’s his problem, that problem is invading your space, trespassing on your territory and infringing your rights – typical narc behaviour. Isolating and controlling.

                      Anything which a narc does to you, turn it back on them – everything is about them and not you. Make sure the fear you’re feeling is actually yours and not his – if it is yours, listen to it. If it’s his, hear it for what it is – his fear trying to find a home in you and then take over – don’t let it in. If it’s already in, boot it out and return it to him.

                      Don’t make excuses for him as in – he raged at me, not sure why, maybe I did do something which made him mad, I probably did, so maybe his tantrum at me when I was in a vulnerable position and he was in a strong one over me was justified – we all do things which make people mad, just as people do that with us. We get triggered and we trigger – that’s why we all have self-control and logical reasoning. We don’t fly into a rage – certainly not in a professional scenario, sometimes in a personal one but even then we have a sense of self and other – we don’t rant at them, leave them reeling, then blame them for everything and expect them to get over it and put up with it, to not respond.

                      Usually when someone makes us mad we try to understand the situation, work things through, claim our part in it, and allow others to claim their part – we don’t wait for the person who made us mad to be vulnerable and under our power before we confront it, and we don’t confront it by having a tantrum which scares the crap out of them and makes them fearful to be around us, even in the presence of others and especially when they are alone.

                      We are aware that they have the right to their reply and reaction if we do lose our temper and can’t contain it. We don’t abuse our power in the way that he did. Then expect you to forgive and forget and come back for more. But abusers do expect all of that and so much more. One rule for them, whatever they say it is, and loads of rules for us, also whatever they say they are.

                      Yes, you may have triggered him – then again maybe he triggered himself and blamed you. Either way or any other way – his behaviour is out of order. And those whom you confided in about the situation – some of what they may have said has to do with how you told it, and some may be due to others not really grasping things – him having a bad day is no excuse for what he did. We all have bad days we don’t take them out on those who are under our care. If we do, we should take a good look at ourselves. It is out of order.

                      You said that you don’t allow people, men, normally to treat you this way – delve into why he’s allowed to do it. Now I know there are practical reasons for staying with this doctor, but that aside, what else is going on here. Is it the intense drama that taps into something compulsive within you. Is there an addiction of sorts to the intensity of it, the drama of it – is it only something you get from narcs. And what is this something you get – that’s what you need to find. That’s the puzzle solver.

                      Alice Miller’s book – The Drama of the Gifted Child – is very insightful.

                      Please take good care of yourself 🙂


                    • No ,males can not treat me that way. It goes for him too. Thing is I’ve never been tricked & sucked into an interaction like this before. I would never let things get this far if I EVEN sensed something was maybe even off. I am always hyper vigilant.

                      Well , not true the was one male that used to trick me – my dad. he tricked me into games of sadistic abuse Sadistically physically hurting me then acting like it was it game an telling me that I had to deal with the physical stinging wounds he inflicted on me since I was a participant in the game. Maybe it conjures up a similar feeling now. I was tricked into this spot . My abuse from my dad is the reason I am so hyper vigilant with protecting myself from being disrespected by males. HTF did this happen? This doctors krytonite charm outsmarted me. DANG!
                      Hes a star “magician” too- has the whole package . . DANG!

                      Now after the abuse incident:—- Can he still charm me when I talk to him ? Yes —It’s sick. Can i still get pulled into drama? Yes. These are my issues – my codependency issues. I think alot has to do with once you start getting the adrenaline & dopamine running thorough your body , they don’t easily stop, even if there is an incident such as this. You’re head knows to stop but your body is craving these which came with that trance component. I am avoiding him as much as I can. I will be done with treatment & out of his world very soon. Mark my words its true. I do not stay involved with abusers.

                      What irks me ?
                      He’s an evil genius.
                      I have to admit I met my match – finally someone who could outsmart me and my seemingly foolproof wall of hyper vigilant self protection which has served me very well for many many years. . Very crafty of him.

                      I guess I’ll just be my strong self now.
                      Finish up with him then shake his hand. I will secretly silently congratulate him on this .huge feat. He defeated my wall. He did not defeat me. Kind of flattering he would go through so much trouble to crack my code. Well, I’m restrategizing my self protective wall with a new code and it will include virus protection from this kind of Trojan Horse virus. Its updated. He also will not even have the opportunity to crack my new updated code. There wont be a next time.

                      I’m done looking at this trough the Narc lens. I’m going to carry it to the finish line only with the abuse lens. Narc or not- its abuse.

                      I share my scary , almost unbelievable experience, as a cautionary tale, to vent some of my pain & fear, and also to let you know how I even came across the discovery of the concept Narcissist Personalty Disorder.

                      I thank you for listening & helping me process this scary uncomfortable situation.


                    • Have you ever seen the film – Svengali (1931) – it’s based on a George Du Maurier novel. It’s about a woman who falls under the mesmeric spell of a man and it transforms her life – in part for the better as in the trance into which he puts her she is able to sing beautifully – in part for the worse as he is obsessed with her and sees her as belonging to him.

                      This doctor has given you a gift (you have given yourself a gift through him) and that is in some ways what all narcs give us (what we get from them). They are negative muses. Once we begin to work through all the elements of the relationship, what we find can give us a new sense of self, a deeper connection with ourselves, more personal power, and can unravel some of the knots which we may have been carrying for many years.

                      The connection between him and your father is important – that gives you insight into your own story and a way to understand it. That’s why acknowledging how you really felt, how distressing the situation is, and how abusive the incident with the doctor was is so vital. It may be very painful to face it all, but to push it out of your mind and explain it away will hurt you more. This way you gain access to pain as an ally and claim your personal power. You validate yourself and your experience.

                      There are many ways to explore further – not through the narc lens but through your own lens, to get to know your own code thoroughly. The better that you know yourself, the simpler it is to protect yourself as it lessens the need for elaborate protection (and the hyper-vigilance which goes with it and which is exhausting) which could become restrictive to you being you the way that you are naturally and freely. Your life should be about you, not about others who want to make your life all about them – be careful that in protecting yourself from them, your life becomes about protecting yourself from them and therefore it’s all about them. I fell into that trap. Use what you know to make your way of living and being a stronger presence – being yourself loud and proud is good protection.

                      Thank you so much for sharing 🙂


              • Thank you Ursula for recommending this to me . I was able to watch it on YouTube. I enjoyed it alot . Very interesting that you paralleled this. So many similar elements.
                I dont know know if I specifically shared this with you , but honestly I was somehow hypnotized/ brainwashed . ( I MUST PREFACE — I SWEAR I”M NOT A WEIRDO -EVEN THOUGH THIS SOUNDS LIKE I LOST MY MIND- 🙂 )

                The day it got weird, when he tried to comfort me about a recent family loss, I was talking to him and I was responding to something he said and I was responding in kind an off putting manner because ( he had verbally emotionally crossed a boundary with me that was not appropriate) and mid sentence I shook my head and changed my response to him and it was the opposite response of what i started out to say. . I swear this happened! I have Never done that in my life – its not me.
                So at first I wondering if we had a special soul connection. Then as time went on & weeks passed I started looking up hypnosis as an explanation but that did not seem plausible since I did not see that occur. I found Neurolingiustic Programming NLP that some doctors use to relax their patients. ( others use it to brainwash , sell, or more sinister purposes) That seemed plausible. I can recall a few things said that may have had NLP embedded messages. I’m pretty sure that accounts for much of what happened that got me in this state of mind.

                Also in the movie , you can see how he was comforting & warm to her and used that to control her. She also had someone else in her life and he did not care at all.- he just hijacked her into his life The telepathy part was also interesting. I know I had asked you if you ever heard of this. I do not have any real belief that we do have that on an ongoing basis — I would not be betting money on it, but I somehow sort of suspect it????? Hard to explain.

                Also of interest is the long back story of how I came to meet him and lots & lots of spiritual coincidences some that cannot easily be explained away ,so much that I had my eye on those, astounded as they occurred , and I’m sure that clouded my judgement about what was happening in reality.
                These last few months have been a huge time of transformation for me.

                We cannot understand the intention of the universe until the right time , when it is time to know.
                ( But waiting to know – does get me stressed As you can tell , I want all answers now! (: )


                • Sometimes you make me chuckle 😀 and even though we’re talking about something serious, it’s very hard to keep a straight face! Funnily enough blogging has helped me a lot with not worrying that others will think I’ve completely lost my marbles. I’ve always known I was a weirdo so… 😉

                  Besides what you’re saying is not weird at all. Part of the reason some people study things like NLP is to use it to influence other people. to be people-whisperers. Mind games have always been a part of human interaction and there’s always someone who wants to evolve it into telepathic control. Corporations use it all the time, especially in advertising.

                  I saw something along the lines of what you describe recently in a film or TV show, can’t recall where, although it is quite common especially in psychological thrillers. It may have been in Lie To Me. No, I think it was in Leverage. They also used it in Hustle. Touch + implanting thoughts in the person touched.

                  When you mentioned NLP I had this image pop into my head, what I associate with it. About a decade ago, maybe more, there was a big push for NLP in the UK. The front man who was selling it to the UK public is a guy who is a hypnotist. He’s a rather famous hypnotist over here. Anyway the push for NLP came at about the same time that hypnotism was popular as a cure for everything. This guy had been trained by Richard Bandler – the man who co-created the whole NLP movement (he apparently had a major bust-up with the other co-creator – so I guess NLP didn’t really work for them or it worked too well and they couldn’t share their mind control kingdom). He teamed up with Richard Bandler to push NLP. I was curious about it, but one look at Bandler and I decided to avoid it. I did read a book about it. In theory it’s a good concept, but in practice… depends on the motivations and intentions of the person using it. As with everything. Things are neutral power-wise until a human being touches it and uses it. Then it becomes whatever that human uses it for.

                  Everything that happens to us, happens to us on many levels. Sometimes they tap into our past and there’s an overlap. Nothing is ever as clear cut as we would like it to be, or it is too clear cut and we would like it to have more meaning, be more mysterious. Ultimately things are what we make of them, and we can change what they are, just as we can change memories by looking at things and people and ourselves differently. We are artists when it comes to our lives. We make of things and people what we make of them, adding colour and so much more. This can transform us just as we can transform this. I’m very close to going off on a tangent into Hermeticism 😉

                  The important thing is your experience and the transformation it has brought about, which you have brought about. Powerful time for you 🙂 that’s always stressful, but it can be a wonderful kind of stress, new energy coming in sweeping away the old.

                  Take care and enjoy the ride, scream if you want to!


                • Ursula, Something else of interest that I’ve been thinking about. After the Narc attack incident I brought someone with me to the next visit. That was despite the surprising phone call I received from him during which had told me that I dont need to bring anyone with me. . ( which I know meant – I do not want you to bring anyone) When I “disobeyed his command” & brought someone anyway- This seemed to really freak the doctor out & he was visibly distressed. He was acting very uncomfortable , his persona was oddly different & I would say he appeared to be almost having an anxiety attack , It was off charts – weird , weird , weird. Not only that, but the nurses when we arrived indicated inadvertently that they knew I was bringing some one How strange is that? As you said, why is he acting this way? I very often have someone with me at doctor aptts or go with someone. My other docs always are perfectly fine with it.

                  The next time I saw NarcDoc after that , I left the person in the waiting room to try to avoid so much drama. Narc Doc started referring to himself as “WE” –as in “me & my practice or me & my staff”- he did not say that though, he just kept using ‘WE’. where he would normally use & had always prior used “I ” or “Me ”
                  ( Believe me I know cause he was always in the past fishing for compliments .I remember how vividly & often he used say “remember when I did that great accomplishment” ) The use of ” WE ” seemed ridiculously obvious, he was using it for a reason, It was done often & throughout the visit , even though it was only the 2 of us there in the room. I kept trying to keep my energy closed off from him He just observing me . He even checked something & then immediately asked to check it again , just to see if he’d get the same “closed off ” response from me. He kept acting in a hesitant way with me. He wasn’t incessantly bantering — for once. It almost felt like we were 2 opponents in a wresting cage quietly sizing each other up before the match .Maybe we both had things to say or questions to ask which could not be asked aloud.

                  Do you think these reactions just cause Narcs are such black/ white thinkers & too rigid to adapt to new rules or changes in interactions that they did not set ? I’d appreciate your thoughts .


                  • You have the measure of him and the situation. Trust your view of it.

                    The use of ‘we’ instead of ‘I’ or ‘me’ in this case sounds like it was an attempt at regaining dominance and authority through intimidation. It’s similar to other speech patterns which people use when they want to give the impression that they are part of the majority and you are in the minority, which is used for intimidation and invalidation of you and your position to strengthen their own position and make them seem authoritative. It’s a sign that he was feeling weakened and needed to support himself with a gang, clique, group. His ‘we’ was filling the room with people who were on his side, sort of like him saying – you are surrounded, put down your weapon and give yourself up to me. Your take on it is correct.

                    Narcs tend to have one game which they like, it’s the one which gives them the supply they need. This will be the one they play compulsively. They don’t like it when they can’t play it. And they don’t play well with others, change the game and the rules, make them play your game and they will not like it one bit. They don’t want to play your game they want to play theirs, so they do not adapt. They do however usually have many tactics to deal with a change of game, tactics designed to force you back to their way of doing things, their game, their rules with them as control freak king or queen. Tantrums, blackmail, wheedling, stonewalling, confusion, blame, insults, etc. If your Doc uses NLP then he’ll try that (and wonder why it’s not working). They repeat, repeat, repeat. Their rigidity may work against them when you change the game and rules, but it works in their favour in other ways. They will wait until you let down your guard. So be careful… he may have lost one round, that may make him more tenacious next time. You have to have more stamina than a narc to take them on, because playing their game is all they do and they’ve been doing it since they were a child.

                    So be wary. It’s very useful to pay attention to the comparison between what a ‘normal’ person would do in a similar situation. Like you said, you other doctors have no problem with you bringing someone with you – you could actually use that comparison on the narc, but that might start a petty war. Just use it to strengthen your position within yourself. You have a ‘we’ too. Use it. And if you want someone with you in the room with him – do it. If you’re changing the rules, change them. There is no reason for you to handle this on your own, unless you want to.

                    Take care of yourself, and be sure to give yourself credit for the progress you make with this, it is a difficult process and you need to boost yourself, give yourself a high five of awesome 🙂


                    • Ursula,
                      You’re right they have been doing these things since they are a child so they have expertise by the time they are middle aged from all the relationships & experiences they’ve gone through. Not in a good healthy way , just in a way of being better and more precision tuned at their dysfunctional skills & precision Plus we are dealing with a brilliant doctor mind here.
                      . That is the exact reason he was able to pirate attack me (as you previously said ) skim my defense walls with such precision in record time & then see into my entire being down to my inner layers of a wounded infant & then kick down my entire defense system in barely any time with barely knowing me.
                      I’m telling you, It’s really artful. I knew he was brilliant but I had no idea he could be be reading me as we had medical visits. I don’t feel bitter about it .. I’m kind of glad it happened. I didn’t remember half the things that happened to me as a child until this happened then boom its all coming up.

                      My concern is I just don’t know how I can protect myself now. I hope all I need is to rebuild a smaller simpler wall. I hope it wont be too low & then I have more violators in my life. i wont know till I get out there to find & out.
                      I dont have a choice now but to find out.

                      I do have a “we” and . I showed him but did not use the word. I had to do it to protect myself. I fought for things with him & made him cave a few times. Maybe even everytime? I know what to do & tactics to use when I need to do this to get things done my way when we don’t agree. . He’s the one having trouble accepting that. I just feel afraid around him now & its very paralyzing so i am at a disadvantage in a big way. I cant really play this sick game with him anymore cause of my fears.

                      I was told by one of the people I confided in that its not fair or right for me to “take out” my childhood trauma that came up on him.. That i should be reacting to what he did to me but not dump all of my brought up trauma on him. To that I say – “F” it. Not in this case. He deserves all my hysteria , overreactions , demands, head games and what ever else I can manage to muster up & dole unto him. Its the least I can do to return the favor of what he did to me that day of the attack. Like a gift from he him me that keeps on giving. No I will not “forgive forget & F myself over again ” ( as you say ) .

                      But as you said , they wont stop til they play the game the way they want it. I dont know what his game is. I dont know what he wants from me at this point. I am just a patient who will be done with treatment soon. I am married. He knows that. We were enjoying each others company when we had brief visits. I’m still me. Just fighting for my rights to get the care need as I always have. He knew I was like that. Not sure where things went wrong – oh yea when he got too comfortable with me , dropped his mask, showed me his ugly mean side then dumped me when I was in an inferior physical position & in an inferior balance of power position. Excuse me for forgetting.

                      I was also thinking about how the air felt ( the environment) during last visit (What AM I going to with you.- was in the air)
                      It was so distinctly different than when he used to be happily bantering with me (and gentle quit seduction was in the air). Also when I brought someone ( Dont be a bitch & do this to me- was in the air ) I have felt like I was somewhere completely new each time one of these environment changes happened. with him. It is so palpable. Its mind boggling. It gets you set up for the next round , even before you arrive.
                      . Also I wonder if maybe my home was like that growing up. Maybe it was . I have think about that.

                      Alo I think these environmental airs set you up for what they insert in your head. Thats part of the brainwashing. The air is set by their sheer will power ( & getting the audience preset up in this to really set the air even thicker .) You walk into it & your role i set up for you. That s alot for unsuspecting person to overcome. You “fall in line” without knowing you are even” in a line with the potential danger of falling in ………


                    • It’s very difficult to explain things to other people, especially when they don’t have the same personal reference points and experiences as you. People, on the whole, try to be understanding, which is a great human trait, however in certain circumstances it becomes an obstacle to understanding.

                      Narcs get away with a lot (and therefore think they’re more clever than they really are) because people make excuses for them. People are empathic, with a narc being empathic is a weakness. They use our empathy against us and for their own benefit.

                      For instance – Poor guy, don’t take your shit out on him. Which is fine and true if the poor guy is not a narc. But if the poor guy is a narc – what about the fact that he’s taking his shit out on you? Narcs project everything and everyone onto us – but we’re not allowed to do that to them. Yay for double standards!

                      IMO, if you’re dealing with a narc and you want to use them to sort through the shit you’ve experienced from all the other narcs in your life, especially if those narcs were your parents, then it’s open season and a good opportunity. Sometimes the only way we can access what’s buried inside of us, what we’ve denied and hidden from ourselves and others, is when someone similar to those who damaged us stirs it all up again by repeating a similar scenario, pattern and dynamic.

                      F’it if it is considered unhealthy and wrong by someone who is detached from it and above it all. I’d hold them to their words when their shit gets stirred, let’s see how reasonable, understanding and magnanimous they are then.

                      We all have our struggles… best not to judge when we’re not in struggle mode. Thanks for the opinion, I’ll do things my way, make my own mistakes… maybe my mistakes aren’t mistakes at all. We’ll see. I’ll send you a postcard from down here to your up there 😉

                      You’re in the zone – see it, feel it, let it transform you.

                      As for your protection – if this frees you from why you had the high defensive walls in the first place, who knows, maybe you won’t need the same type of defense after you’ve dealt with this. You’ll have more awareness of your personal power and everything else, as you already have and are working on having more.

                      For me personally. I don’t have anywhere near the sort of defenses I had because I trust myself to protect myself just by being more authentically myself, and because I know what and who I can deal with and survive. It’s still a work in progress. But I’ve found that the more open I am, the more protected I am. It’s weird because I thought being open would make me very vulnerable, but it seems to be the opposite. Without my massive wall of defense I’m more flexible, which means I bounce back faster. I don’t break or fall apart as easily. And people don’t feel the need to attack me in the same way as when I put on a front of being strong and strongly protected by high walls.

                      Sometimes the opposite of us is us. The opposite of safe is safe. The opposite of protection is protection. Or at least the opposite according to what we have been led to believe. Hard to fathom, some things only make sense once you’ve lived them 🙂


                    • LMAO about your opinion on giving it back to him. I think hes bored without the drama. Thats been my role I guess. Thats what he wants from me. I dont act that way towards people. , He evokes it. Like he’ll tell me to call him to let him know how I’m doing after treatment. I really would not mind or may even wish I could call. But I think that I dont want the audience to get the wrong idea or even him to get the wrong idea or so I dont call or call *& leave a quick message about my progress with the front desk. Shouldn’t be a big deal right? No, he gets upset I know cause I did not follow his plan & obey his command. That s the kind of drama I mean that I got sucked into . It s a no win situation. Glad i am starting to see some of these dynamics. It was all invisible to me before now- even though I knew something was off , . Yea for clarity. Hope it keeps it coming. It’s so freeing.
                      I do want to be more authentically myself, I do think I have some things about me ( especially narc caused scars) that no longer serve me well.. I am a very young spirit for my age. I stay young cause I’m stuck there .( like a narc is stuck) But you know , I can get out when I’m ready , so I’m not really stuck after all. . Thanks for sharing your views on that with me. It’s scary .I know what you mean about sometimes you do things that you had in your mind would be scary but you find such ease once you just try. The fear can be 100x worse than just trying. I have spent my whole adult life so far just trying to avoid being anything like my mom in anyway shape or form. Thats alot of work. It also makes me extreme sometimes. Its hard not having a model to be a mom. Much less trying to be the opposite of her in my mothering.

                      Back to Svengali. I do understand the cautionary tale of the lesson. I also wanted to say , the main character & the whole movie really reminded me of someone I was drawn to . Someone I used to work for . The story is almost our story actually. ( minus the hypnosis part) He was a questionable character with a gift of gab but I loved that about him. He was older than me . I was very similar to the female character in many ways. Bubbly ambitious. . He took me under his wing & endeared me cause i made money for him, There was never any sort of physical attraction between us & he was not a narc. But I was captivated by his ways . He really helped me grow. In reality I I probably did not need him, but in my mind I did at the time, Also, i do overall tend to get attracted to characters like that. They have have to be just harmless enough though. Also already accomplished, like Svengali was a musician in his own right. He could have gotten out there & done more with it. He needed her in a way & she needed him in a way.
                      These types work so hard at getting at you that they are hard to resist. Sometimes I let them in. I have always grown alot from these experiences. I’ve never gotten hurt by them . I wouldnt want a romantic partner like that though. It would never work. They’re fun a side relationships -as friends only . (:


                    • Learning to relax into ourselves is difficult when you have a history which you don’t want to repeat, there’s a sense that if you relax your guard… something will happen, something will take over. Something like your mother. It’s a fairly common fear for daughters to have. I’ve seen quite a few posts about it. But it gets much worse if your mother is a narc or disordered and abusive in some other way.

                      There’s a beautiful, poignant post I read the other day – – which shows that sometimes a bad mother can teach her daughter to be a good mother and human being by setting a bad example.

                      So perhaps you can stop worrying about finding your mother in you, or being like her, because she taught you how to not be anything like her already.

                      I was wondering, you said somewhere that you used to be into astrology, did you ever cross reference things like your experiences with your chart, and did you ever look to see if your chart showed why you find strongly charismatic types so fascinating. This is just a curiosity, I find many answers to my questions by exploring my chart, and I just wondered. Feel free to ignore this 🙂


                    • One thing that I was impacted by on the Invisible Scar was it discussing the family dynamics . how the mom controlled all information between the siblings and would even tell big lies to pit them against each other. In my grown life my mom did this in a BIG unfathomable way. Talk about a headF***. I cant even go into the details but siblings turning on each other in vicious confusing hurtful ways. Never understanding what the F*** was happening . Having a sneaking suspicion that this WAS happening but denying it simultaneously—- cause really, would anyone be THAT EVIIL ? My own mom??
                      It couldn’t be ….Denial , denial brushing way all the evidence. So hurtful. What hurts more ?- whats Happening in these hurtful confusing interactions or the Truth? Too much to bear. You would NEVER believe the stories I could tell of what she did. All the pain & devastation. Any happy moments were always squashed by my mom & this maliciousness. None of us speak now.

                      Youre right , & i agree its high time to stop worrying about being like her. I am tired of being at extremes to be the opposite. I’ve been looking at my life. It effects me all over. It exhausting to keep up with. I need to adjust everything now & find my genuine points where I want to be . I can settle anywhere in the middle . I dont need to be polarized any more. I’m officially ready to make that change.

                      The compulsive NArc game – I did see that with my popular NArc Mom. She kept her many close friendships going but always had one special fan that she was very fond of for the moment. She would immerse herself with that fan and be very obsessed with them .they were very special to her. I can just put myself there as me being that for NArc Doc & see why me pulling back after his outburst is sending him into a Fing tizzy .Special fans do not do that . i never saw a fan do that to her —-but yikes …..I cant imagine if they had al hell would have broken loose.
                      She didnt have NArc attacks aimed at them either , just at home.
                      Also worth saying is that she loved her friends & they loved her. She did not scheme behind their back s or talk badly about hem or anything like that. She did hate many many people , but not her special friends.

                      I do think that’s my magnet pull to Narc types. For once I get to be a fan , sometimes even the special fan that they are compulsive about. Thats what I meant by the pedestal. It a cool place to be. I was never discarded just sometimes demoted to a regular fan by my Narcfriends if life & circumstances changed. I honestly never saw my mom discard a friend in her circle. So when I read about that I cant really see it.
                      Like i said , maybe that just refers to love interests??? Maybe it something I cant see???? Not sure.
                      I understand about normal people dumping you and Ive been there on occasion like anyone else but not with a narctype. We usually have a hurting quiet mildly painful ending if it ends or cools off. Interestingly with no drama. Actually we don’t have any drama in these friendships . Narc Doc is all about invoking drama on the other hand so I dont know maybe this time I will get see the discard of a true full NPD person?

                      Not sure how a doctor would discard me any way. If our relationship allowed us more time to communicate with each other I’m sure I could calm his fear crap down. I just dont want to get involved that way & start crossing lines & boundaries . Hes freaking himself out with fears and his own neurotic worries . I GET IT. .I have a scared feeling of his capabilities for revenge so I will have someone with me as I finish up there. I feel that calming him down is actually a more beneficial option for me & more humane . But that choice sacrifices myself into being pulled further in when I have decided to get out.

                      Charismatic/ slick type attraction – reason : I am not calculating towards people but they are I want to learn more. It’s fascinating hearing their reasoning & perspective.

                      Havent been into astrology since I was a teen so I barely remember the charting . Interestingly my mom & I were only born a few days apart. That may make a good hobby for me to get back into soon. Thanks for bringing it up.


                    • I came across this today – – which I think gives added insight, and sort of touches briefly upon the special fan dynamic.

                      That’s an excellent insight about the special fan. And I know exactly what you meant about the pedestal because that is what narcs do during the initial stages of relationship. They idealise and idolise. You’re special, perfect, a soul mate, the only person in the whole world who exists. They love you like they’ve never loved anyone ever. And then it begins – the price you pay for being ‘loved’ by a narc.

                      Some narcs don’t do the discard, not in an obvious way. They keep people hanging on, they’re just not as in love with them or as interested as they were before but you never know when they might be useful. It’s a bit like a child collecting toys. The newest toy is the most special, and they ignore all the other toys for a while. Then the new toy breaks, gets boring, and eventually it gets added to their pile of toys which they keep but which aren’t as special as they were before because they’re used. But no one else can have their toys even if they don’t want them. Every now and then an old toy suddenly becomes useful, special again, especially if someone else shows an interest in it.

                      The list of traits and behaviours of a narc which are considered signs of someone having NPD are accurate but there are variations which is why professionals always add a disclaimer when they publish the list and mention the spectrum of the disorder and its variables. Context, environment, upbringing, status, social and career factors, etc, all weigh in. A narc who lives in a small town is going to be different from one who lives in a big city. You can’t discard people in a smaller community the same way that you can in a place which offers a larger selection of alternative communities. However a narc in a smaller community often has more influence than a narc in a larger place. They like having a kingdom over which they rule like a despot. Some narcs only feel capable of doing that with their immediate family. A certain type of narc doesn’t do the full discard, they only do it as a last resort if someone consistently confronts them.

                      The variations of narcs is partly why there is so much info about narcs online, we’re all trying to put the pieces of our individual narc experience together. The clinical view has a lot of info, but also leaves so much out. That’s why researching different resources is so necessary, and reading people’s personal accounts often offers more in depth insight which can help us understand our own experience. Ultimately we’re the only ones who can figure out all the aspects of our own story and the narcs in our life and how they’ve affected us. If we’re attracting and being attracted to narcs, that is a goldmine of information for us about our own story, exploring it may yield the keys to unlock our shackles.

                      Placating a narc when you can’t do otherwise is the most recommended by professionals tactic. You can do it without getting sucked into their drama and without sacrificing yourself. All you’re doing is simply being ‘nice’ to them because that way they shut up and stop being a nuisance long enough for you to extricate yourself from their presence. What you need to do first is sort your own mind out before you do it, that way you stay focused and clear. You have to remind yourself not to fall back into your role-playing for him. On the outside it may appear to be the same role, on the inside it’s different because you’re the one setting the rules. It’s a shift inside in thinking.

                      You might find this interesting –


                    • I have never thought of it as “the price you pay”, I just thought of all those dynamics as “life”. You just deal with painful things from others There is really nothing that intolerable that anyone can do to you What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger,Those are life’s dynamics in my mind.
                      Wow , so maybe I’m really messed up boundarywise. I am thinking now my perception of healthy reality may not be not the same as others . I know I have loose boundaries , but it must be worse than I thought. My family of origin house was a constant free for all of abuse,neglect , confusion, no boundaries & chaos. I will continue my quest & continue to observe. TY for the feedback.


                    • I don’t think any of us perceive reality, healthy or otherwise, as anyone else does. We all have our individual take on things, because our life is unique just as everyone’s is. Sometimes we find others who have a similar take as we do and it confirms our view. When we meet those who have a different take, they open our eyes to possible options, that there are other versions of reality, healthy and otherwise, which we might find interesting to explore. That doesn’t make our take wrong or right, it’s just different. That’s why sharing is so fascinating.

                      You had your survivor instincts turned onto max to cope with your childhood environment. This is neither good nor bad, it’s both. Everything has both positive and negative, what we have to look out for is how our perception affects us. As long as it works for us, is for our benefit and doesn’t harm others (and this is open to flexible interpretation, especially where narcs are concerned), then it’s productive. It’s when our particular perception starts to affect us in a restrictive and painful way, that it’s important to rethink, review, alter what may need to be altered without necessarily throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

                      Appreciate who you are, how you are, how you relate, perceive, etc. This is a part of you, your individual spark. Be open to shifting things around a bit, being open to other perspectives which may enhance your own and therefore give you benefits you didn’t realise were available to you. Always appreciate and respect the path you have taken, that path was necessary, just realise that the path ahead doesn’t have to follow the path behind unless you want it to. You have options and you deserve to benefit from them.

                      Have you ever come across the work of Pema Chodron. She is a Buddhist, and her work reflects that, but it applies very beautifully to life in general and you don’t have to have an interest in Buddhism to benefit from her insights. Her book – Start Where You Are: How to accept yourself and others – is a wonderful read. Helped me a lot to relax and open up 🙂

                      Pema Chodron “Troublemakers” –


                  • Ursula, Love these 2 articles you sent , I have my first thoughts but l want to think some more before replying

                    I love the toy analogy- You’re brilliant !!! I like your explanation for the variations of how they function in different segments of society .
                    I just want to say , I really don’t get the discard part. I’m starting to wonder if I am blind to it. Would it be like when Narcdoc verbally attacked me cause he was hurt about something? Or is when you are demoted to a regular friend from special friend , or is it when they dump you & wont talk to you anymore or cool it off with you (as in what happens in normal relationships) ? Please explain , cause I never saw my mom do “discard” to anyone. I dont recall it happening to me with anyone I know? From what I read , it seems like a sudden friendship drop after an intense closeness has occurred.


                    • Continued- if it is like a demotion & being put aside like a worn toy , so what? This did happened to me with my long time Narc girlfriend recently actually Shes not as into me or close with me as we had been in the past few years. That s cause things changed in our lives. I’m not going to call that a NArc demotion or discard. even if she is a NArc . She & i have gone through that before. That happens in any friendship, Things in friendships change as situations & interests in life change. Sometimes we are closer to certain friends. Sometimes we drift. Sometimes we have to end a friendship . I cant tie this in to my story for some reason.


                    • The discard is similar to what can happen naturally in normal relationships, when people drift away from each other. But usually both parties understand what is happening, may agree that going separate ways is the thing to do, and can discuss things if they have any questions or want to perhaps reconnect. It is also similar to a break up, only again, in a regular relationship, both people involved can discuss things, may have seen the end coming, and at least get some closure.

                      With a narc you never get closure. Ever. And this is a major torn and torture device. What you get is unceremoniously dumped. They stop talking to you. Unfriend you without warning. Maybe you’ll only find out from gossip that you’ve gone from best friend to worst enemy. And you won’t know why, won’t be able to find out why from the narc, what they’ve said about you behind your back won’t make any sense at all and may be very horrible, and it is very bewildering and hurtful. One minute everything is okay, the next it isn’t. They go from making you feel like you’re the only person who matters to them to pretending that you don’t exist, you’re dead to them. That’s that and you don’t get any say in the matter.

                      If you try to get closure from them, confront them about the discard, you get walloped with blame, condemnation, it’s all your fault and they have to get away from you.

                      That’s the more common narc discard which people refer to as it is sudden, painful and very confusing. The narc discard gives people the feeling that they’ve been thrown away like a piece of trash. It’s starkly horrible. There is a lot of information about it on the internet.

                      The other type of narc discard is not quite as sudden or obvious. Narcs who think they’re ‘nice’ tend to use this one more often than the other as they don’t want to look bad when they dump people. So whereas once they bombarded you with emails, phone calls, visits, they just don’t anymore. If you contact them, they’re too busy, involved in ‘something’ and they’ll get back to you later (never), it’s all very important and hush hush, or they simply say nothing, ignore you, wait for you to ‘get the message’ and go away. This type of discard means they can hang onto you in case they need you again. They also may blame you for the lack of contact (not usually overtly) or make you feel guilty for noticing that they’ve been ignoring you. You may hear gossip about yourself if you move in the same social circles – people who once liked you may look at you funny and also avoid you. It’s sneaky poison which is the ‘nice’ narcs favourite weapon.

                      Narcdoc attacking you was not a discard. If Narcdoc had his assistant send you a notice – out of the blue – that you had been referred to another doctor, that he would no longer be your doctor. That would be a discard. Especially if it was accompanied by little to no explanation and any questions you had would be left unanswered or answered in such a way that would leave you feeling as though you had done something wrong, committed a sin of some sort in his eyes.

                      Being demoted from ‘special’ friend to regular friend is a part of the discard. It is usually a lead up to it. ‘Nice’ narcs do that one a lot.

                      It is – a sudden friendship drop after an intense closeness – like you said. If you haven’t noticed it or experienced it, it may not have happened or it may just not be something which catches your attention. You may view it as being normal if it has happened, remember that a child of narcs views many things which narcs do as being normal because to us it was normal (until we questioned it when we were exposed to people other than narcs).

                      A lot of what narcs do is an exaggerated version of normal. It seems fine until the penny drops that it isn’t. Also depends on the narcs you’ve experienced. On their favourite games and MO.

                      I wouldn’t worry about it. Focus on the things you do recognise and understand.


                    • First of all, I realize I’ve been chatting with you for 6 weeks and I am turning into a total blog hog so I apologize for that. You were right though, blogging has helped tremendously. I cant believe how much insight you have helped me gain about so many aspects of my life. Every day now I wake up & I discover something new & important. . I also realized that I have repressed a TON of stuff and alot of surprising things are surfacing .I went through much worse abuse than I had consciously remembered. I’m purging & gaining insight. But good news is I’m handling it ok. I have some support in place when it gets a bit much. Understanding my life with my mom & family of origin through the Narcissism lens changes EVERYTHING for me. I am seeing so much of why I made the choices I did in life when sometime the reasons were allusive to me. Now it makes sense. I am learning that I have suppressed alot and have many blocks of mental amnesia that I must have subconsciously used to cope with the abuse. I know I tended to disassociate at times, but I did not realize the extent. I did not even realize that the disassociation continued throughout my life when something really threatening happened. The abuse from my dad was worse than I admitted , it was molestation that was disguised as games. He was supposed to be the good parent, as compared to my nutjob mom, so I could not bear to think that noone was there for me. There were 2 other scary/ inappropriate incidents that I did have with doctors in my life when I was in my younger years. I had blocked them out but was able to recall them today. This helps me realize why this NArc Doc thing ha such a tight grip on me. I took some new steps today to move away from his grip. Sorry for the long purge.
                      I appreciate the support and kindness you’ve given me .


                    • Selective amnesia is a survival tactic. It’s how humans deal with trauma, if we remembered everything we’d find it difficult to keep going. Many things get pushed into the subconscious and only resurface properly when we’re ready to deal with them. Certain things can only be dealt with when we feel safe enough to face them. Which is why shit often hits the fan when we relax. Relaxing means we feel safe, thus things we’ve been avoiding present themselves to be sorted out and understood. Distance from an event, in time, helps to ease some of the stress of it and gives us observational detachment.

                      Selective amnesia is a particular component too of NPD. So dealing with a narc brings that heavily into play from many different angles. Narcs do it and we end up doing it too to handle having to deal with them. Children in an abusive parental situation are very prone to blanking unpleasant events and memories out, either because their parents force them to do so, to buy into the parental version of reality, or because it’s too overwhelming to face the actual reality so an alternative is chosen and memories are rewritten, forgotten, buried, etc.

                      When we are ready to acknowledge our whole story, bit by bit it all comes flooding back. It can be very disorienting, shocking, confusing and intense, but it is also liberating. Takes a while to sort through it all and readjust. It changes everything, makes things clearer, bring things sharply into focus. We see like we’ve never allowed ourselves to see before.

                      You’re an important member of this blog and community, your contributions are honest, brave, insightful and wonderful expressions of sharing your journey. The comments on my blog enrich my blog, and I know people get a lot out of reading them. So, thank you very much 🙂

                      Keep doing what you are doing for yourself, trust yourself, trust the healing process you’re guiding yourself along.


                    • I just wanted to say I read your reply to aoefe about your N mom on THOUGHTS ON “HOW TO PLAY THE NARCISSIST’S GAME”. I could have wrote what you did nearly word for word about your NMom. ( except the tracking you down part) TY.

                      There may be elements of the covert – who knows? So let ‘s discuss Narcs I’ve known:
                      From my personal past experience in my perception ( also remember this whole dynamic was unnamed ) until around the the time I found the concept/ definition of Narcissism,,the N types that I have known were pretty obvious in their almost flamboyant charm.
                      Attractive and magnetic.Well groomed and so put together , you cant help but want to be around them. Full of compliments, noticing material things and characteristics about you that typical people may not notice. Good at really seeing who you are in a way others can’t, pointing out your specific special talents & characteristics to you in a way that melts your heart and really makes you feel understood & special .
                      Also they have apparent pain on some level that most people cant see but it seems to echo in all they do. They are aware of this but accept it as part of them & just forge ahead. The male I knew just seemed to have layers and layers to him like an onion. He seemed to have an endless hole of emptiness & pain that the could not fill , though he keep trying. ( I told him both of thee these analogies on 2 different occasions). The female just regularly in conversations with me discusses her inner pain in relation to many topics that evoke her pain. She’ll say “well you know how I am , how I take things personally. She’ll say ” I always have the be the one giving , doing etc. ” These people have long term marriages are very successful in their careers and are socially successful I try not to look to close at he dynamics of their marriages cause I dont think it a pretty picture at all. Male is married to a Barbie doll trophy wife. They create quite a show as the perfect jetting around couple who has it all.
                      Female married to husband who is not allowed to express his opinion or she makes sure he pays quite a price.. She did not know how to mother so she tried to model my mothering style to my child and copy all I did . ( that was not good since I was extreme in trying to be a good mother ( whatever that is – who knows since I had no role model myself) She took my crazy model and made it on steroids to try to be competitive and PUSHED HER KIDS SO HARD TO BE SUCCESSFUL that I actually think she turned them both into Ns. Her son literally went around as a child shamelessly saying ” I’m the BEST, I’m the BEST,” He was raised to believe that.
                      I’m being real & discussing the good & the bad. Overall, those these 2 people were very special to me. I was closer with them each on some level than I could ever get with others.
                      They dont seem to have the button pushing component Narc Doc does ( push my weak buttons, and provoke me to pushing his back worse) ,and neither raged at me, instead they would easily get hurt. Narc Doc does both- lots of easily hurt and then adds manipulation ,& rage. This part is like my mom.
                      My mom & Narcdoc were NOT as nicely packaged as the other 2. I personally would not be drawn to either in a social setting, instead definitely repelled. They have a mean controlling auras to them that fill the room . I felt my mom had an aggressive overbearing aura which is quite unfeminine, I don’t know why so may people liked her? Svengali card , maybe but only cause I was sitting there counting on him. Counting on his expertise & care . He added the other components in a under handed tricky confusing way. In any other setting, hes one who I would have no interest in EVEN having a conversation with. On the street, hes the kind I would just blow off if he even talked to me Not a good vibe . Sort of geeky. Not my physical “type” even. He just reminds me of this little mean frustrated boy I used to know from my childhood neighborhood. This boy was so mean that he teased the little girls and bullied them One day on the bus he taunted me and made fun that my mom walked me to the bus stop. I ignored him but he was aggressive and he actually hit me . I’ll never forgot it. That was from my shy days and I never told anyone, just felt felt ashamed & confused. That is who he reminds me of . I see that exact boy in him . Look wise , personality wise.
                      So not sure if my 2 shiny magnetic Narc friends are just very narcissistic but not actually NPD but Narc doc Narc mom are/were. There are commonalities but clear differences.


                  • I only knew narcDoc a little over a year and spent way lees than 10 hours of my life with him. I know nothing about who he really is at all
                    This is such an odd situation – of where someone who you really don’t know can have such an effect on you.

                    I remembered something today— upon my second meeting with him he said something to me that I just brushed off & did not think much of at the time. I travel to see him since he is a specialist that I do not have to see often,. He initially indicated that somehow this flattered him. Then upon our second visit he said to me that he mentioned me to this mother at a dinner where he saw her – the fact hat I traveled across several towns to come to see him. He also mentioned to her where i was originally from ( as I was new to town) .I had forgotten this conversation but I see that it set me up to really trust him , thinking that he appreciated my patronage. Who would have dreamed he would secretly manipulate me then abuse me?
                    I am finally sorting alot of this out but it has been very confusing.


                    • Can you see what he was tapping into within you? To unravel the knots of confusion, it helps to see what within us made us vulnerable to the manipulation of a narcissist. Narcissists are not as clever as we give them credit for being, a lot of what they do is similar to what a talented salesperson does, they play to our vanity and get us to sell things to ourselves. That’s how we get hooked. So explore the pedestal concept further, it is a place of insight. Therein lies your personal power in the situation. Don’t give him more power over you than he actually had and has. That’s how we keep ourselves trapped in the dynamic.


                    • Yes , its disgusting. I forgot all about it. It seemed like a natural conversation with a new doc. The comment was a bit over the edge , but not as much as it sounds on paper. We just seemed to get along well and have an instant rapport which was why I forgot about it. I guess it planted a seed in my mind to view him as friend not foe no matter what. Hence the confusion of how can this person who is so very fond of me attack me over some BS in a sadistic manner?
                      I dont feel he just an evil manipulator who was conning & playing me .
                      Well, I have to say partially , he did it cause he was hurt since he was so fond of me & he felt that I was not a loyal patient since he expected me to do something that in his mind we agreed to . Narcissists do that. If you don’t follow their rules , you give them a new wound. When they are wounded they lash out. Trouble is I did not know he has NPD. I had no way to know. Sorry to keep saying this but if I knew I could have “walked on eggshells” with how I said things to avoid a wound. I have been trained since birth to do that & I can do it well.
                      I know to a normal person reading this – you’d ask why would you even say that- why why you want to appease a NArc & give up your own opinion & rights? That s how i was raised. I don’t mind doing it sometimes with some people. It not bothersome to me depending on who I am dealing with and if I decide to do it. ( You can ask why would someone want to be a crocodile trainer ?)
                      He did do some nice things along the way to help me , but it always seemed to have to tie back to him so he got credit or befitted from it somehow.
                      But in this case, even if I knew he was NPD , there is too many other bad things he did , like using NLP on me to manipulate me. Also, disordered NArc or not, a handshake is not enough of an apology for his unprofessional abusive scary NArc attack conduct.
                      So , thanks for letting me rant. I am almost done with my visits and I have moved him to official “foe” list.


                    • I think you’ll find that a ‘normal person’ reading this would not wonder why you would appease a narc. Diplomacy and tact is one of the main behaviours of humans when dealing with other humans. In fact it’s the recommended by professionals tactic for dealing with narcissists. Only it doesn’t have to entail giving up your position. That is something which children of narcissists have to learn or unlearn. we can be tactful, placate, without the whole walking on eggshells out of fear thing.

                      This is why it is important for us to realise how a narc taps into us. How we let them in, like someone inviting a vampire to cross the threshold of our home. We play a part in the dynamic. For us to balance the power dynamic of the situation and interaction with a narc we have to understand our part in it and adjust it.

                      Yes, the narc is clever, manipulative, is accomplished at finding people’s ‘weaknesses’ and using them to their advantage. Yes, they’re charming and lull us into false security, etc. They hold a large portion of the fault and blame. However if we blame them for everything and portray ourselves as a powerless, helpless victim and puppet, we’re still caught in their version of reality, still in the ‘trance’, giving them all of our personal power, helping them to keep a hold of us. We need to look at ourselves unflinchingly and see how we allowed ourselves to get sucked into their thrall and game.

                      We may be a victim of a narc, but once we have acknowledged that we do not need to remain a victim. We can turn being a victim into the inspiration to heal the things within us which allowed us to fall into the hands of a narc.

                      Kim Saeed wrote a post about that recently –

                      And this post is also interesting to get a different view of the dynamic – The Drama Triangle: The Three Roles of Victimhood –

                      Build on the insights you have gained to move away from old patterns and into new strengths.

                      And don’t worry about what other people think of what you are expressing, that can lead us astray, focus on what you think of it.


                    • I was progressing well then had a slip back to my addictive issues The addiction to this dynamic is very alluring & tempting – unhealthy bonding -it makes you feel good- but in reality is toxic for you , I’m not a victim . I am part of the dynamic.even if he is a doctor & the dynamic was unbalanced . That is the BS part of all of this .How can this happen at a doctors office??????????????????????????

                      He could seriously do harm to me. .Sometimes I do like to play back & forth with people in this dynamic, but not this time , he has full NPD and plays dirty and its not safe.

                      I’ll be OK > i’m focused on my goal —to get out . Also getting ready to leave my therapist who has no clue as how to help me. What a waste of my time. I hate when you waste months of bearing your soul only to realize that this therapist is NOT going to be able to help. UGGGH! I also must propel myself by starting something new, just need to get focused & move my energy somewhere else.


                    • HI Ursula,

                      I’m doing lot better today. Hope you are too.

                      As you recommended , I visited Kim Saeed’s blog and she has some good links there for Guided Meditation via You Tube. I have been using & it’s been extremely healing for me. I have gained alot of clarity. TY.

                      I also had a new thoughts on what I told you about what NarcDoc said at our second visit. I am wondering if he found it exciting hat I traveled to to see him bc perhaps he has a reputation locally for all the Narc shit he has done to others .If that is true , I would have been “the perfect new patent ” Perfectly blind & gullible with no chance of hearing anything from anyone to clue me in & no worries for him in the future of me trashing him locally.
                      I have a hunch that, is the case.
                      Especially with all that :WE” stuff. I also think that it was a set up for ” WE were all here medically taking care of you – if you think or imagined anything else , you’d be wrong” . He did not go into that since was still playing with me , but the backup defense protection system to protect his reputation & ego was set up an ready to go , just in case .
                      It also may have been a warning to me showing me to either surrender , comply and obey his directions to me or he would have no choice to set his system in motion.
                      This demonstrates to me that has expertise has done this very often to others.
                      The day he Narc attacked me when I was in a defenseless position then shook my hand gently immediately after, I knew on a subconscious level what i was dealing with:
                      An expert abuser just like my mom.
                      One who could cover their tracks in an instant and have the whole world fooled into thinking that the victim “imagined the whole thing” . It was like a magicians trick. An illusion. Everyone can only see the illusion , but I know it only a trick – what is really going on.
                      That is why i had that trauma episode, I knew subconsciously that he was RELENTLESS ABUSER .
                      I guess its time for me to admit that I was a victim.
                      I did not want to admit it. I wanted to have power and be strong.
                      I could not surrender to being a victim with my mom – I would not have survived if I did.
                      I would have mentally gone insane from her verbal torture or have been physically maimed in some way. I also would have have lost my belief in God , my belief in spirituality & in the Universe. I would have also lost my belief that people are basically good. I would have lost belief in kindness & in hope,;
                      Despite my deplorable unbearable situation with my NArcMom I always had to fight beyond my human capacity to survive , to live , exist.
                      I exhaust myself daily to this day locking doors and rechecking them to make sure I’m safe. I exhaust myself protecting myself from possible threats all around on so many levels. Analyzing and reanalyzing. It so much work.
                      I have to admit , here , I was dealing with an expert illusionist and I was fooled.
                      I have to really own my victimhood here. I was prey. I have to surrender to it . I cant take any responsibility , I cant own it. The problem with doing those things is that their not mine to own. .I don’t want to be a victim in this scenario but the truth is that I am. Hopefully when I finish my visits I can at least be the one who chooses “which hill I will die on”..
                      I told you that I recently realized that I realized I no longer have to be polarized and be be more flexible as an adult. So I will begin my journey with this: I will not be afraid to be a victim sometimes. It ok It doesn’t mean I will die or cease to exist.

                      I can only start with the Serenity Prayer :
                      God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
                      The courage to change the things I can,
                      And wisdom to know the difference.



                    • So awesome!! Even though I have been recently practicing guided meditation to try to achieve insight & to relax, I kept using the same excercise over & over again for months. I kept seeing the same insights over & over again as a result. I decided to try a new meditation exercise a couple of days ago, that I mentioned to you. That really seemed to change my consciousness in a very positive direction.

                      Once I decided to really admit my own limitations & reach out the Universe for answers they came almost immediately.

                      One day later, I found myself at a car dealer with my spouse, we ran into a salesman who in a less than one hour has us both reeling. He must have used some sales influence mind control on us & we both had trouble breaking off from him even though he was not treating us nicely. I had that bad annoyed feeling , yet compulsion to continue with him. He made us sit there for long periods waiting for him & clearly had no respect for us or our time He asked us questions in a manner that put us on the spot. He was not like likable , actually obnoxious Why was I feeling unable to just leave as I was intending to do ? . My spouse who is very street smart & usually strong willed was reacting the same as I was. After we managed to get away from him, he came out to the parking lot with is hands flailing at us , being rude & acting like he was the boss of us . We both felt bad & were irritable.
                      I pointed out to my spouse that he must have used some sales mind control on us & we were both experiencing the trance state as a result. It was a confusing , irritable state of mind . We shifted gears to more pleasant things like lunch & felt better in a few hours.
                      This episode served as confirmation to me from the Universe that I had truly been under a trance & had similar technique used on me with NArc Doc. Since my spouse was involved this time , I was able to see the effect it had on him (and myself) and I interpreted it as confirmation that I it was really time to get out of that dangerous situation. The Universe gifted me with an alternate VIEW of how these things can happen. It was a sign that you can be a victim in your own innocence.

                      Sometimes we need to take a new direction instead of the same old one that we keep using over & over again which is not working but we just dont stop to acknowledge that.
                      Sometimes we can’t be strong enough, and we do have to ,completely surrender & truly open ourselves up & reach out the the Universe to ask for help and for answers and be wiling to Accept help and to Listen for Answers.



                    • Car salesmen… sigh! Very similar to narcs! The narcissist ethos runs throughout business, kind of started back in the 80’s, was always there but then it became the ‘thing’ to be and do – Wall Street, the film, was a milestone for narcissistic culture, especially in business and the corporate world. The important thing is to observe and notice, and evolve from there. No recriminations… just learning and growing.

                      The times they are a changing’… slowly.

                      Trust yourself… let the dark emerge into the light 🙂


                    • Can you discuss what you know about Covert Narcissism.? Please also watch Ross Rosenberg’s You Tub segment . I dont want to put link since last time it came out large last post . I think after watching it more than once I get why I was unable to detect many things in NarcDoc . Also why I never really trusted him in a way I could not define and why his aura felt so dark to me.
                      Even though he is a Narc, this kind of person in my mind is practically a different species than a typical Narc.
                      In my mind. with nonCovert Narcs what you see is what you get, once you identify them. Their ways are narcissistic.
                      It seems a CovertNArc is way better at hiding their narcissistic. ways. They do not appear to be a N since they are experts at keeping it hidden an blend in like a camelion, actually acting convincingly kind. It seems like they are generally meaner when things come out and significantly more manipulative .


                    • I don’t think your NarcDoc is a covert narc, from all that you have said about him and your interaction, he sounds like a typical overt narc.

                      It can be confusing going through all the variations of NPD. New definitions, sub-types of NPD, keep being added, with different psychologists often giving different labels to the same thing and muddying the waters in their efforts to clarify them. The thing is that each person who has NPD is an individual, with unique experiences and formation of their NPD wound, and therefore their NPD will manifest through them and be shaped by who they are, how they are and what their particular life is like.

                      The manipulative tactics which all narcs – overt and covert, cerebral and somatic, etc, – use are ‘covert’. In other words their manipulations are usually not in your face blatant/aggressive. Some narcs are blatant/aggressive, but that is not the norm for NPD. The norm for NPD is subterfuge, charm, getting under your skin by schmoozing their way into your life, hence the reason why so many people are fooled by them – the narcs even fool themselves with their ploys and manipulations.

                      So, there is a certain ‘covert’ element to all narcs. They’re all chameleons, they all hide from us and themselves, they all pretend to be who they are not, they put on the act that is going to get them the results which they are after. That does not make a narc a Covert Narcissist.

                      A Covert narcissist is most often someone who is playing the ‘victim’ and they tend not to be as charming as the typical narc, they certainly don’t play the Svengali card, they play the ‘poor me’ card, they’re helpless, always in distress and it’s always everyone else’s fault, they’re whiny, wheedling, they complain about everyone and everything, and criticise all the time, they’re passive-aggressive, and the only people who find them charming are those who have a ‘hero/saviour’ complex. They appeal to the ‘fixer’ and problem solver in all of us – however no matter how adept you are at solving problems and fixing people, a covert narc is always one step ahead of you and their damage can never be healed. They can be very typically narc aggressive when confronted about their endless ‘victimhood’. The poor little helpless victim turns into a vicious victimiser if you try to take away their victimhood and their impossible problems. These are the narcs who often claim to be empaths, HSP’s and so very considerate of everyone but themselves. They’re also the ones most likely to claim to be victims of narcs – and they study how to do it, reading up on ‘being the victim of a narcissist’ then mimicking it better than actual real victims of narcs. If they claim to be a victim of a narc, their narc is always the worst one ever and they compete with other victims to be the one who has suffered the most. The difference is, unlike real victims of narcs, they don’t have any intention of learning from the experience, healing and moving on.

                      Some links describing this:






                    • Before you respond to my narc friends post , I’ve decided to reframe the post to “a statement of Narc shenanigans that I’ve participated in ” Its more of a thinking aloud than a question for you. I seem to own it more once I release it here. You & others see what I’m really saying – then I see what I’m really saying. I’ve only been aware of & looking at this dynamic a few weeks I’ve been living this dynamic in various ways without thinking about it all (except sometimes feeling confused) for over 40 years .
                      Please bear with me as I heal TY………………………..


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