Great post!
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From a great blog!
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Answers all your questions about Narcissists… in a way… which is useful for you!
Rather than making things all about them… this makes things all about you!
Beautiful and healing twist!
Flipping things around with style!
Trying to figure out NPD, those who have it and how they affect you and everyone else… what is what, who is who, and so on can be confusing… because confusion is an intrinsic part of NPD. For those who have it and those who interact with those who have it.
Sometimes it’s worth exploring the confusion to understand it… and sometimes it is best to simplify. Cut the Gordian Knot of confusion with a sword rather than try to untangle and untie it!.
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An Upturned Soul 
Haha I found the post extremely liberating in all its simplicity and trueness! It is actually as simple as that, -yes is the answer to all of your questions. Of course deep down you knew it all along, but ah the denial! This cuts the knot trough with just one blow: yes! Thank you for the link 😀
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This post for me reflects something which I do in my mind when I suspect I’m dealing with a narcissist. I simplify the interaction for myself because narcissists don’t operate on the same human program as non-narcissists.
Most humans are caring, compassionate, use empathy and understanding on a regular basis when interacting with others. It is a mutual give and receive. Cooperation. So if a misunderstanding occurs, we can usually work things out in a logical manner together, by asking questions, explaining, listening, etc. Whereas with a narcissist things operate very differently. It’s a one-way interaction. We’re never going to get logic from them which satisfies us. It’s all about them and what they want from us. It’s never about us for them because we’re not real to them, not separate from them. What we want is irrelevant to them unless it’s useful for them.
I liked the simplicity of this. It’s one of those simple solutions which is actually complex, but keeps the complexity out of sight unless we want to know more about it.
When you’re dealing with a narcissist, keeping things simple is very helpful. It clears a lot of the confusion, especially that confusion which occurs when we don’t understand why they are not behaving the way most humans do. We’re doing all the things we normally do with others, and which others do with us, but it’s not working because they aren’t doing it.
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An interesting blog! Have read many of the posts here by the anupturnedsoul, and the many response’s. I was in involved with a Narcissist for just short of 1.5 years. Starting in August of 2009, and ending in January 2011. The start was just short of mercurial and atmospheric in an other worldly kind of way. It was my ‘soul mate’ I had been searching for all my life. The charm, the brightness of him was incredible- it was really ‘perfect’. I was in a difficult time in my life- and I believed that ‘Good Karma’ had finally shown upon me with this man. The relationship proceeded well the first 6-7 months, however I began to see some ‘odd’ behavior that I just was not able to fully fathom. The first was ‘self absorption’- he just never was able to validate me much of the time, and ask me what my needs where, Then came the lack of empathy- which I though was strange, yet was a striking peculiarity in his persona. Then there was the ‘occasional’ ‘putdown’. As time progressed I began to have doubts about him after the picture perfect start.
Like most ‘non Narcs’ who do require some basic ‘reciprocation’- I began to slowly ‘step back’. This is when the devalue process began, and it escalated over time. There was the ‘gas lighting’, the systematic destruction of my already fragile self esteem. The relationship ended. Like many others I spent much time trying to understand what I did, to make this happen. He told me he was on lithium, plus antipsychotic drugs (2 of them) I initially thought he was bi polar- over time more processing of data. I began to see consistent behavioral patterns then suited not a mood disorder, but a personality disorder- narcissism.
I went into therapy in August 2011- and discussed this abusive relation ship with my therapist, she told me that it could be NPD- at first I did not connect the pieces of the puzzle- over time I did. A years ago I was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. I then entered DBT- and am making a recovery. I began to see the NPD in my former Gay partner in late 2012, early 2013. For me the pain, abuse and destruction of my self esteem, did leave me standing naked and stripped to the bone. But the ‘gift’ that was given to me was finally be able to find my ‘true self’ that I never knew before. Us cluster B’s including the narcissists seem forever trying to find ourselves- and face the trauma and begin to heal. Today I realize my father was likely BPD, and my mother had traits of BPD, and Histrionic PD.
Its been a long voyage. For my former NPD partner- well I have found myself, and begun to make changes- as for him- he still seems still stuck in his grandiosity and self centeredness. Perhaps one day he will see the light.
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Thank you for sharing 🙂
Your story is a wonderfully clear and inspiring example of finding the gift in the curse of a relationship with someone who is narcissistic, as through your relationship with him and the pain which he caused you, you found yourself. That is a very precious gift and discovery.
I think you were right about this man being a ‘soul mate’ and the relationship was a result of ‘Good Karma’, just a different kind of soul mate and good karma from the traditional interpretation of those concepts. Sometimes a soul mate is someone who acts as a catalyst in our life, who helps us find our true soul mate, the inner soul mate – our true self. And once we find ourselves, then we change and our relationships change in a way which is powerful.
There is a Chinese story and proverb about ‘blessings in disguise’ – http://www.pureinsight.org/node/1887 – which shows how sometimes when something bad happens it is actually good and vice versa, and it is up to us to choose to evolve with our experiences, move with the flow of our lives and learn, explore, or stay stuck.
If this man was on Lithium then he may well have Bipolar Disorder. Certain aspects of bipolar disorder overlap with/are similar to NPD. The highs and lows have a similar pattern – however bipolar disorder is physiological and NPD is psychological. Lithium is a strong drug and would, as far as I know, not be prescribed for NPD. For him to have that drug, he would have had to have been diagnosed by a professional.
Best wishes to you on your continued journey through your life!
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Thank you for the inspiring reply. I have a ‘friendship’ with another man who admits to being bi polar- well its just different. There is not the Grandiosity or the obsessive need for ‘perfection’ I see manifested in the person with likely NPD There is not the instability in the suspected NPD compared to the Bi Polar. I broached the topic of him being narcissistic- in which he gave me no answer. He told me however he suffered a very confusing childhood where there was neglect and abandonment. The lack of empathy I found to be stunning- there was also the attitude that ‘I only want the best’ wanting to be aligned with only the ‘smartest’ people around . I put up with what I see today as psychological abuse with putdowns aka ‘gas lighting’ – I found there to be a coldness, aloofness, a detachment emotionally with an ‘omnipotent’ gaze of superiority. By the way this person has left behind a trail of destruction- another gay man I know who is the process of finishing a EdD- was also involved with him- called him A ‘Troubled Soul’. That being so- the cruelty he inflicted was a huge learning tool for me. I have gone no contact- so the manipulations do not work.
Although no psychiatric medications are specifically approved for the treatment of narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), patients often benefit from the use of such medications to help alleviate certain symptoms associated with this disorder or to manage concomitant axis I diagnoses. Medications that may be considered include antidepressants (specifically, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors [SSRIs]), antipsychotics (Seroquel, abilify) , and mood stabilizers (Such as lithium)
SOURCE: MEDSCAPE
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Yes, once you know of their existence and accept them as they are it’s easier to stay your course and avoid getting lost, even when you are an empathic person. We don’t really need to know the whys (the complexity you refer to –acknowledging the facts IS the shortest way), which I think is where most of us get stuck, probably because we want to reclaim what we believe should be rightly ours (their love, their acceptance for example, while we were unaware of their specialness). We are left to our own devices, confronted with our own messes. Yes they are the trigger, what caused the mess to surface, and that is what I understand when you refer to the gift in the curse. But the mess was already there, otherwise nothing would have surfaced. And now that it’s out in the open and we feel it in all its ‘splendor’, our job is to decide what we want to do about it; we have been forced to face it, but that also implies the possibility to take a look at it, deal with it and get out of it in a better shape than ever, if we decide to take that opportunity. It’s a hard lesson, raw and ‘unplugged’, but like a bucket of cold water, it can not only wake you up but bring you back to life.
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I swear I’m getting worse at posting every day, always post at the wrong place, sorry, that was the answer to you comment! 😀
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No worries, just go with the flow 🙂
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I love how your insight works 🙂
Yes, yes, yes to all that you said ( a different kind of ‘Yes’ from the one in this post! – a life-affirming ‘Yes’ rather than an – accept what you can’t change – one).
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Thank you Ursula, it always makes me happy when my ramblings reach somewhere and I never know if they will. I find your blog a inspiring place to let them lose in a spontaneous way, so I’m glad you’re happy with them :-). About the insight, I’m not even sure I can consider it mine, I suspect it works its own way :))). Insight must be just that, looking within rather than without. The without gives a lot of important knowledge (some withouts), but the knowing, that’s something else. I think it comes from experiencing/discovering yourself first, that is my experience at least. And as you always say to your readers, by being kind, very kind with oneself. Yes the overall message is life affirming, because I think we’re all going in the (that) same direction; when one acknowledges that, everything flows more easily. Someone said that all things happen for you, not to you 😀
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Have you ever been to this blog – http://www.mindmapinspiration.com/ – a mind map is a wonderful way to visually experience the connections and flow of thought. Illustrating your ramblings may reveal more about the steps of their dance. Insights in sight 🙂 Exploring ourselves helps us to discover others as well as us, and sometimes uncovers the threads of our story in a way which binds it all together in a tapestry.
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Thank you for the link, I had never heard of mind maping. I’m pretty sure I now mostly use my mind (consciously at least) for practical purposes, which would be a very boring thing to map I think. I don’t think I’d be able to map my ramblings, as they just appear and disappear as quickly as they came leaving no trace. I forget them again quickly too, though paradoxically enough they also stay somehow. And I can’t prompt them to come either, so it’s very elusive, very difficult to map down (heh ). I don’t try to hold to them either, once the idea, insight or whatever comes, I just let it go again (also because it’s so sudden, like when you get a glimpse). But they are easily excitable, I just never know what excites them 😀
I have always liked to write things down. Up until my late twenties I kept a diary, and it did help me to clear things up. Now I wouldn’t even know what to write about. I don’t ‘create’ the thoughts, I guess you could say. Which is why it’s so difficult to pin them down.
Exploring ourselves is I think they only way to discover others, for if the mirror is not clean enough the image you get will never accurate, it would be tainted, and it’s also a sure way to verify that we indeed are all part of the same tapestry. We all share the same basic stuff, so the more you know yours the better you understand the ‘superficial’ differences of others. And thus also the easier it becomes to accept them (and love them).
I guess I just avoid to get entangled in anything, especially not in my own mind, I try to stay out of trouble 😉
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❤
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❤ back 🙂 every time I post a heart I think that's an ice cream…!
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‘When you’re dealing with a narcissist, keeping things simple is very helpful. It clears a lot of the confusion,’ how true indeed- a few words to them seems to be far more successful then many. Some have said they are (narcissists) not human- a strange variation perhaps- totally rational to the extreme- do they aver feel joy?
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Some of what is said about narcissists is an external perception, the personal view of how someone else experiences their behaviour. A lot of how we perceive others comes from how we perceive ourselves.
If we think that we are right and someone disagrees with our view, we may conclude that they are wrong because we are right. Does that mean that they are wrong just because we’ve concluded that they are?
If we consider that our way of thinking is the way that everyone thinks and we come across someone who does not think as we do, we might conclude that they are stupid, or crazy, compared to us. Does that mean that they are actually stupid or crazy just because we’ve concluded that they are?
If we are openly emotional and feel that everyone should be this way and we meet someone who does not express their emotions at all, we might conclude that they don’t have emotions. Does that mean that they don’t have emotions just because we’ve concluded that they don’t?
So when someone says that narcissists are not human, this is more of a reflection of the person saying that. The narcissist does not behave as they do, or as others like them do, they can’t understand the narcissist at all, can’t recognise the traits which they associate with being human in the narcissist, so they reach the conclusion that the narcissist is therefore not human. This judgment usually occurs after the person has decided that they do not like the narcissist. It is a label born out of pain and fear. When we don’t understand someone, can’t relate to them, when how they are remains an unknown to us, we tend to reject them.
The story of the Elephant Man is a very good example of how humans react to people they do not understand at all.
There is an ugly side to human nature, and in some ways narcissists embody it. So, yes, they are human. They do experience joy, but it may not be the kind of joy which you consider to be joy.
When you first met your ex, during the honeymoon phase of the relationship, did he seem to experience joy to you?
You consider narcissists to be rational. I, on the other hand, think that they are irrational.
I also consider that narcissists have empathy, it’s just not the kind of empathy which non-narcissists can relate to as being empathy. Then again I consider that what a lot of people call empathy is not empathy but sympathy.
It’s all about our personal perception of the world around us. In some ways we are all solipsists.
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With my Ex- we have no contact. I have not seen him since August 2012, when he went into a nasty rage against me. I guess I had caused some kind of narcissistic injury’- little did I know then. I still assumed he was Bi Polar- since the medications he took- typified what is prescribed for that mood disorder. I may also add that he had been an inpatient for a time several years ago. Remember this, after we split- I did not understand what happened between us. When I went into therapy 3 years ago, I explained his behavior/ this relationship to the psychiatrist , she said immediately ‘Narcissistic’ was likely. I had heard of the term before, in fact dated someone in the late 1980s who seemed very ‘egocentric’- the relationship ended quickly. But in retrospect the two behaviors where nearly the same- self absorbed, detached, and nearly emotionless. My degree is in Geography- not Psychology.
Over time, after relentless reading, plus the 1.5 years of observing his behavior- like a clinician perhaps, he seemed to meet every check box in the DSM diagnoses (I would say 8 out of 9) wow. Do I think now he is a ‘Malignant Narcissist’ or a Psychopath- NO- despite his extreme narcissism, I see some ‘ghost’ remnants of feelings- not many – but a few- the Psychopath is essentially feeling free. I keep him as a Facebook friend. He does not bother me. I have compassion for this man, frankly I feel he is not happy. I understand now that we cannot even see each other as ‘friends’ since his control issues and inability of reciprocity make it difficult for us to communicate. All one can do, is radically except what this is, without judging. Hopefully he will someday develop the insight, stay in therapy, and make some adjustments to his toxic behavior toward others.
After 3 years of therapy, including DBT- I understand why I became enmeshed in this kind of codependent relationship . I needed to get to the root of my own issues, and not totally blame someone else. If one fails to do this, then they have learned nothing! I struggle day to day with BPD- its caused me much trouble throughout my life. Yet now I am moving forward- with a more vital, caring understanding of who I am (finally) and that of others, including my NPD ‘friend’.
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Actually Geography is useful as a way to understand certain aspects of psyche. People can be equated to countries, places, a city. When we meet someone we travel to their landscape, as we get to know them we explore their streets and those who live there (aspects of personality) and through the experience we gain a different perspective on our own landscape and its populace. Sometimes we stay in a place longer than we thought we would, we stay in a relationship or keep repeating the same dynamic in one relationship after another, almost as though we are trapped there until we learn what it has to impart to us.
Sometimes we read up on a country in a book and imagine what it will be like before we go there, so we imagine what someone will be like. Then discover that the place in reality is different from what we imagined, as is the person. Sometimes this causes conflict for us because we are torn between our imagination, our ideal, versus the reality which isn’t always something we want to accept. But when we do accept it, it can have a profound transformational change upon us, our landscape shifts, our perception shifts.
Life is an intriguing journey, we create mind maps as we move through our landscape discovering it, and there is always more to be explored and new ways to explore it, ourselves… and others.
What we see in others helps us to understand what is within ourselves. The landmarks which grab our attention are symbols which tell us about the landmarks which exist within ourselves. Our thoughts about others show us ourselves.
We can never really know someone else, but we can know ourselves. 🙂
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