Apocalypse Narcissist – Empathy, Sympathy, Sensitivity, and… Apathy

Why is it so difficult to figure out if someone is a narcissist or not?

You’d think, after reading up on the traits and behaviours of NPD, that narcissists would be easy to spot.

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DSM - V of NPD

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They are selfish, rude, manipulative, critical, nasty people, right? Entitled, grandiose a-holes who don’t give a shit about anyone else, right? They use and abuse everyone, right?

It should be obvious, right?

Read or hear anyone’s story of their relationship with a narcissist and, if you’ve never experienced a narcissist up close and personal, you may wonder how come they stayed in that relationship, put up with that kind of behaviour, allowed themselves to be suckered by such a person, and repeatedly let themselves be used and abused, and used and abused again and again.

If someone describes a person they know who is like most of us end up describing narcissists, you’d probably advise them to ditch that bitch or bastard, avoid that toxic waste dump of a soul, that black hole of negativity, that dark matter. Get away, get out, and get smart. Get over it and move on.

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daniell koepke - toxic peopleThere are tons of quotes like this one online… easier said than done, right?

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Remember that by the time we share our story of our particular close encounter with a narcissist, we’re in the angry zone, in the betrayed fury arena, the outraged inning… we’re gladiators and we’re done with showing mercy, this is dog eat dog, the rat race, and only the ruthless and strong survive, right? We’ve sussed out that they’re a narcissist and everything that means in its most awful, painful, horrible deep end.

We’ve made it easy for others to find the baddie in the story… we’ve also made it easy for them to find the chump (that’s us, circled with a red sharpie by us due to how we tell our story). So we make it easy for others to scoff at us for being such fools… they’d never be as dumb as us, not based on how obvious we’ve made the villain in our film version of our true story. They feel smart compared to us… and we get mad at them for feeling that way!

We once thought we were as smart as they think they are… we also scoffed at the idiots who fell for such villains… ruh roh… are we now not just victims of a narcissist, but also victims of karma which is having a laugh at our expense!?!

Did someone once tell us about their story with a narcissist and we… were dismissive, too cavalier, insensitive, unsympathetic, unempathic, a bit too cocky…? No, no, no… surely not!?! We’re good people, empathic, sympathetic, sensitive… except… no… surely…not…

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Apocalypse now humor

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No one believes in narcissists… until narcissists become real to them. And even then… what is real and what is not? Are they the fantasists or are we?

Once upon a time we may have thought they were gods, angels, heroes… but now we can only see them as demons, monsters, malevolent beasts, villains.

By the time you share your story with others your narcissist is Hannibal Lecter or Cruella De Vil… and so others may be perplexed as to how you could have ever fallen in love with such a person, or wonder if perhaps you’re making this shit up… a woman scorned or a man on fire… especially if they’ve never met them.

If they think you’re crazy… consider this, particularly if you never believed in narcissists until you experienced one, if someone came to you and told you about how they once loved Charles Manson… what would you think about that and them, and their story?

It’s hard to be empathic when you don’t have a personal reference point. You can be sensitive and give sympathy, superficially you know that’s what they want so you give it because you know your social cues… however you have your own problems and so does everyone else… and listening to someone else’s problems when you are caught up in your own is the last thing you want to do – you need empathy, sympathy and sensitivity from others too.

And if they’re sharing a story which sounds more like a plot from some film… fiction! You’re living real life, you don’t have time for this!

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signs

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And listening to the story of someone who is in the worst part of their relationship with a narcissist can be too much to hear, information and emotional overload. Their life drama can trigger things in us which perhaps we’re conscious of or perhaps are hiding from ourselves. Stop, please stop… I don’t want to go there!

One person’s problems can have a domino effect on our own.

It’s important to be aware, when sharing your story with others, that you don’t expect too much from them. Expectations = disappointment. And telling the whole story of your experience of a relationship with a narcissist to someone else can be very draining and confusing for them – it is for you, so why do you think they’ll be okay with it?

We need to be empathic, sensitive and sympathetic towards those who offer us a shoulder to cry on, a listening ear, a compassionate moment to share. They’re not obliged to give us any of those things, so appreciate what they are doing when they do it… and try to understand when they can’t do it, or can’t do it anymore. We are not entitled to their understanding, especially if we are not understanding towards the reactions they might have towards our sharing of our story.

That shit has fucked you up… so it may fuck others up too, even if it is secondhand fuckuppery.

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True Empathy

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There are many variables, and the more variables of which you are aware, the easier it will be on you… and on others.

One of the things I find slightly disturbing is the accusation of apathy which those who now know all about narcissists hurl at those who still remain naive about narcissists, especially at those who seem to be aiding and abetting a narcissist – your narcissist whom you have unmasked and now want everyone else to see what you see (which you didn’t always see).

I understand the frustration, and the reasons for being pissed off at those who seem apathetic, but… be honest with yourself, you know the score, you know what it is like to be completely spellbound by a narcissist, or oblivious to people who are narcissists, you know what it is like to not want to see beyond the facade of them or to know that such people exist, it hurts… it hurts horribly to remember those times… but that’s your personal reference point which should inspire empathy in you for those who are still unable to see what you now think is blatantly obvious.

If you’ve really and truly been through the vicious cycle of being in a relationship with a narcissist, a person with NPD, then you know apathy… and you know why others do it because you’ve done it too. It hurts like hell to admit it…

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apathy-i-dont-care

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Before you label me as a schmuck or whatever (whatever = apathy of a sort about labels, accusations and such. Narcissists give those out like after dinner mints)…

I’ve done the apathy thing… I’ve had my long moments of not giving a shit about anyone or anything, mostly due to no one giving a shit about me and my things (lousy excuse but a very human experience).

Growing up with narcissists you learn early on (before you know you’re learning it) that other people don’t give a shit about you… unless you’re useful to them as some sort of object, a pawn in their plans for themselves. This kind of lesson can make you go in several different directions. The easy way is – you become a narcissist yourself (if you can’t beat ’em, join ’em). The hard way is – you keep trying to fight the easy way, stupidly hoping that you’re accumulating good karma by doing things the hard way (while a voice keeps whispering seductively – give up, give in, give everything to everyone else…).

In the human version of good and bad karma, networking, making lucrative connections, profit, gain, screw everyone else, no consequences required, narcissists are better at the game.

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narcissistic writing promptFor some this is just a writing prompt for a piece of fiction… for those who know a narcissist, especially children of narcissists, this is anything but fiction… good luck getting anyone who hasn’t experienced this, a narcissist, to believe you… you’re imaginitive, you are!

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When I was younger I kept expecting that good would win over bad. What a moron, an idiot, a fool, a lucky survivor of Darwin’s law, a fantasist! But those sort of things are subjective… and most people didn’t agree with my version of my particular narcissists, my parents, because they benefited more from the bad than the good… which therefore made the bad = good and the good = bad. They prospered from being on the side of the narcissists… being on my side got them punished by the narcissists who ruled! They pawned anyone who dared to challenge them!

As I got older I didn’t necessarily get any wiser but I wised up and… realised apathy was quite a good tactic to survive the narcissistic reality I was stuck in.

Not many people sussed my parents out as being not as charming or beneficial as they seemed and pretended to be. They had influence, I didn’t… so they always won when it came to recruiting acolytes. My father excelled at this more than my mother, he was famous (sort of, in his circle, she was just his wife whom he hated)… frankly I was my mother’s only acolyte, her one loyal soldier of fortune (to my misfortune).

Shiiiiit!!!!

But every now and then, when a blue moon rose, and pigs grew wings and had a bit of a flight… someone would see through the veneer of my parents’ Wonderland.

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fuck you smile

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I recounted an incident recently in a comment – basically once upon a time someone took me to one side and revealed to me that my mother was a monster. Yes… and…? I know… What am I supposed to do about it for you?

This person was a newbie to this whole rigmarole… perhaps I should have been more sensitive, sympathetic, empathic… but… all they were doing was switching sides between warring narcissists. They’d been on my mother’s side, it didn’t bear successful fruit for them, so now they’d moved over to my father’s side. I knew that wouldn’t work out for them either, but they didn’t know that and didn’t want to know that. It was slightly more complicated than that… but you really don’t want me to explain that mess to you. Really you don’t… neither do I (as that’s part of my selective amnesia years).

That wasn’t my finest hour… but I didn’t really have many of those at that time. I could make endless excuses (growing up with narcissists you learn to be an excuse generator) for myself, but… I was just being apathetic.

What was the point of my getting involved more than I already was, and I was in deep… this person was nice, they’d once been innocent of all things narcissist… then the narcissists had gotten hold of them, they wanted the mirage the narcissists offered – but for those dreams to come true there’s a price to pay…

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rumpelstiltskin

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…most people seize the day, the dream, the offered magic, the gift of the narcissist… ignore the price and then whine later and try to worm their way out of the fine when they have to pay up.

If I’d stuck my neck out for this person, to save them… I’d have only had my head chopped off again. Which is okay because that was always happening to me… I knew how to stick it back on. But… this person wouldn’t have done that for me, they just wanted me to do it for them… so they could get away.

Would they come back for me, helped me as I helped them… nah!

As nice as they once were… and perhaps still saw themselves as being so very nice, that kind of nice is a one way ticket for one person – them. Maybe they’d have told tales of someone (me) who’d sacrificed themselves to save them, an act of kindness for which they were grateful and which inspired them to do random acts of kindness for others (which they bragged about while pretending to be humble about it). Doubt it… most people prefer to be the hero of their own story… but if they had given me that role… they’d have forgotten to mention that part where they could have returned to save me, but decided to let me die or whatever… once they were out… yeah!

And that’s just a best case scenario… you can’t trust those you help to actually get out when you sacrifice yourself for them to do that… many screw you over and stay, maybe that was their plan all along, to worm their way into the heart of the narcissist… then the whole bollocks begins again, only this time you’re doubly screwed!

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Box of Fucks by Domics

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When people are apathetic… more often than not it’s because they’re trapped and can’t see a way out of it, they’ve given up, they’re overwhelmed, drained, really don’t give a shit anymore about anyone… everyone wants you to care about them, no one cares about you other than to care about you caring or not caring about them… they’ll screw you over in the blink of an eye to save themselves.

Trust no one when you live in narcissistville – not even yourself!

So, next time you label someone as apathetic because they didn’t care for your plight, weren’t empathic, sympathetic, sensitive enough for you towards you… a bit of empathy, sympathy, sensitivity flowing the other way might… might explain things to you about their apathy, even if it pisses you off and you hate them for it because you want them to give a shit about you… but they just can’t, they’re exhausted of such things.

Life is difficult enough even if we never encounter a narcissist, but those who end up getting sucked into the version of reality of a narcissist, into a relationship with one… get the life and energy to live sucked out of them. You know what I’m talking about, right?

A narcissist expects you to be empathic, sympathetic and sensitive towards them 25/8, maybe 26/9… more than that, they need more and it’s never enough.

They take it all from you and you really have nothing left for anyone else… and not for yourself either… which is why you seek it from others.

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anthony-trollope -the-delicate-creeper

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When we’re victims of narcissists…

we may not realise how much we grow and feed off our story… off of our victimhood, off of what the narcissist did to us, our suffering due to them, especially when we share it and others relate to it. Suddenly we have power as a victim, and may feel inclined to stay that way because we’re getting attention for it.

we may inadvertently cause others to become secondhand victims of our narcissists.

We don’t mean to do it, but we’re the walking dead and we’re starving, have been that way for a while and… food! Everyone becomes food…

the wound, the virus, the narcissist has… they infect us with it and we become carriers, passing it on as we try to find a cure… we call it healing, but how do others experience our healing?

Some viruses manipulate the minds of humans to get them to pass it on… humans aren’t the only ones with survival tactics.

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potatochipDeath Note

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I’ve learned many lessons from the narcissists in my life, some of which are very twisted, but one of the most valuable ones is – Pain connects us all, more than anything else in life. It connects us not just to other human beings, but to every aspect of life, to nature, to Earth, to the Universe.

We all experience our own personal version of the Big Bang.

We’re all made of star stuff… not all star stuff is light and sparkly.

What you want… others want it too… what you want from others… others want it from you too… and sometimes the best thing you can give to yourself, to others is… nothing.

That void is soon filled… nature always fills a void.

Once you realise that your nature fills your emptiness… then you don’t need anything from anyone, and strangely… that’s when people start giving to you…

Sometimes when you get things from others for nothing… well, that nothing ain’t nothing anymore.

Okay… I’ve lost the plot, not sure if I ever had it to begin with…

Just remember… we’re all in this together even when we feel alone… so very alone… others feel that way too.

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Trouble weighs a ton… and we all carry it… seek to lighten our load… some do that by shifting their weight onto others, then those others carry their own and those of others… and…

Sometimes Atlas shrugs…

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21 thoughts on “Apocalypse Narcissist – Empathy, Sympathy, Sensitivity, and… Apathy

  1. Apathy – yes. You have definitely nailed this one. 🙂 I felt it hugely right after I split from my ex-narcissist, but then I went right away into counselling which really helped me get back on my feet.

    Good post, Ursula. 🙂

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  2. Hi Ursula. Its a good reminder that when we come out of this kind of relationship and then possibly wake up to the fact it was a pattern we were set up by less than empathetic caregiving in the past we have a huge package of anger, confusion, outrage and there is a tendency to tell the story over and over again. I think its important to be careful that this seems like victim hood but only if after a time the person doesn’t want to take any responsibility for their part and it IS understandable people get fed up or disbelieve us. I know it is VERY true at one point someone I knew was trying to express their pain over this kind of relationship and at that time because I didn’t understand (I was much younger) I didn’t totally believe them and cringe about my responses, knowing what I know now that this person was really suffering deeply.

    I had big confrontation today with two of the narcissists in my life, this is never a good idea. I would love to read a blog of yours or get insight into what you think happens psychodynamically when you try to confront the narcissist in this case my perspective was invalidated, then subtly attacked, undermined, scoffed and then the tables where turned when they questioned had I considered it from their perspective (yes I had), was accused of being unloving (though I have stood by and supported this person (my mother) even after very difficult hurtful things. The other person concerned did not even remember their behaviour and then looked contemptuous, questioning and doubtful. I was told that by now (since it had happened years ago I should have got past it and not be rehashing it) to which I replied how can this be a rehash if anything it is a hash as I had swallowed the hurt, disappointment anger and pain and it led me to a very lonely place where I ended up crashing and having a bike accident.

    My question was I being narcissistic in expressing outrage, asking for an apology? (this is doomed to failure, why did I do it again? I have swallowed this anger at their treatment of me over 9 years and today it just came pouring out like the apocalypse and I then got in trouble for being angry, swearing and standing firm when both of them tried to turn the tables on me and guilt me for showing a lack of respect and care. I came away feeling like a prize idiot for even attempting to go there and was literally sick to my stomach the entire time it went on.

    Anyway here is me doing just what you spoke of in this blog. But you probably know how it is when you go through this kind of encounter and come away from it having been labelled the bad guy.

    So semi apologies for the purge and taking up airspace.

    Just one other thing on an astrological note. At the moment both Mars and Mercury are passing through my twelfth house. I’ve been feeling spun out, low on energy then swirling in the cosmic soup of all the past pain that is still being processed and integrated. At times its been difficult to stand up. Robert Hand says that when Mercury is in the twelfth house its best to bring things out into the open which I did today. It didn’t go well but I did get some clearer insight into some of the tactics used when you go to the wrong place to get validation or confirmation.. I wish I was stronger and aware enough not to have gone down that route. But as I read that sentence back I see I wasn’t yet and probably need to be less tough on myself.

    Any experiences to share from you or others on what happened when you tried to confront the narcissist?

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    1. Thank you for sharing 🙂

      Purging is one of the ways we figure things out. It’s what I do on my blog and I often find that after I’ve written things down I get a new perspective on it. I think it creates some space in the mind to allow new thoughts in. Sometimes when I look at what I’ve written I can see things I’ve missed when I kept it all bottled up. Sharing things publicly has made a big difference to me, it makes me accountable for myself, my words, my story, makes me take stock. I can’t pretend I didn’t say or think something, can’t deny my version of a story. There are times when I look at myself and think – OMG I’m so full of shit, such a narcissist… – when that happens it gives me a reality check and actually helps me to understand my experiences with narcissists better, I can see where I’ve been blinkered and can change the flow of things for myself if I’m willing to face up to my part in things.

      When others share their experiences and views with me in return I often find inspiration in their story – sharing can be very powerful.

      It’s interesting because you often mention your anger, but when you write about your story and experiences that’s not the feeling which comes across. Your words don’t seem angry, the energy within them isn’t aggressive, it’s not attacking, and since I only know you through your words I find it difficult to imagine you as you sometimes describe yourself or mention how others see you. However when you mention your sadness and confusion, that does come across, that energy is within your words. I can see the confusion swirl, and the sadness falling like rain.

      Sometimes what is perceived as anger isn’t anger. Perhaps a reevaluation of what you and others call ‘anger’ is needed. We sometimes mislabel things, especially emotions, and the mislabeling occurs because of how the emotion impacts us. Sometimes an emotion like sadness can feel as though it is attacking us, it knocks us over, and if we’re resisting it we may think it is being aggressive when really it is us who feels aggressive towards it, therefore it gets called anger, but it isn’t anger. Strong emotions evoke strong reactions and we sometimes only notice the reaction, and that is what influences our take on what is being expressed.

      The mislabeling is particularly common when interacting with narcissists because they see things only from their perspective, how they are being affected, what they are thinking and feeling, what they need and want, what they don’t like, etc. Since they are aggressive, even the passive ones are aggressive, and some of why they are aggressive is because they think others are as aggressive as they are, they’re always on the defensive and always see themselves as being under attack. A narcissist can accuse you of shouting even when you’re whispering, and take offense even if all you said was hello. They tend to think everyone is as angry as they are at the world. They’re always on the offensive and take offense at the slightest thing.

      If you’re confronting a narcissist and you know they’re a narcissist then it helps to remember that they don’t listen in the way that you would want someone to listen, they don’t hear, feel, react as most people do, they don’t communicate as non-narcissists do. If you’re trying to get them to see a mistake they made, they will defend themselves as though it was a matter of life and death, and their most common defense is to deflect, distract, and attack.

      If you’re trying to have a serious heart to heart with them, they’ll point out that you have a spot on your face and it’s so disgusting they can’t possibly concentrate on what you’re saying. This unsettles you and screws up your concentration. If they think you’re trying to point out a flaw in their perfect selves, they simply point out to you what is wrong with you and distract you with it. They tend to know exactly where to hit you to push you off course. They know which buttons to press to switch your focus away from them and onto you, or away from you and onto them depending on which one will give them control of the situation.

      If you tell them that they broke a promise, lied to you, betrayed your trust, hurt you, etc, instead of doing what a non-narcissist would do, which is to try to discuss the matter with you reasonably, logically, work things out, see things from your side, share their side, meet you halfway and try to resolve the matter, apologise, make amends, etc, they will derail your story with their own. Their broken promise becomes your broken promise, their lie becomes your lie, their betrayal becomes your betrayal, the hurt they caused you becomes the hurt you caused them… whatever they did to you is nothing compared to what you did, have done, are doing to them. And whatever they did to you is your fault. They initiate the drama games and they always win because they’re experts at it and will stop at nothing to win – they’ll stab you and then call the police to have you arrested for trying to kill them.

      Mostly what I’ve learned from my attempts to confront a narcissist is – it’s a waste of time, energy and effort, and it tends to cause more of a mess than the original mess you were trying to solve.

      Sometimes it is unavoidable and needs to be done, but if it can be avoided, why put yourself through it. They will never give you what you want because the relationship is all about what they want… and not giving you what you want gives them what they want.

      Astrologically anything which is transiting or aspecting your 12th will cause hidden things to surface and give you the opportunity to uncover ‘the hidden enemies’ in the unconscious. Mars there tends to stir the sediment up a lot. Based on your chart, if I was you I’d also factor in what’s going on in your 1st, which transits are conjuncting your natal Uranus. Your need to be free is being stoked by Jupiter and Venus (that’s just gone retro).

      Take good care of yourself, and be gentle with your beautiful soul!

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      1. Thank you so much Ursula. I am so interested in what you are saying about our reaction to emotions and the impact, so the emotion gets mislabelled. I am not sure I understand fully what you are saying, but I guess are you also saying that emotions can seem like a threat that brings a feeling of fear or a sense of being attacked so a defence of some kind is mounted or an attempt to deflect or turn things around or it is misinterpreted due to the emotion not being fully understood?

        So many times in my last relationship it felt like my grief was such a threat to my ex partner. When his own father was dying and we went a long way to visit him, I started really feeling sad (sadness too over my own father’s death so many years before) and was crying. The next day he took my car as he wanted to move his father to a new place on his own. He told me he didn’t want me crying anywhere near his father when his father was not well. I accepted it, but it made me even sadder. He took my car, left me alone with his sister all day and then accused me of being jealous when I said how lucky it was the his father was getting dietary advice to deal with his stomach cancer as when my father was sick that did not happen. I can understand the two griefs were separate but one evoked the other. On the way back home I got in trouble for playing a KD Lang CD with sad songs on it and then the silent treatment for days after which I was told I needed to leave my sadness behind in order to be with him in a relationship.

        Part of the incident I was seeking apology for from both my Mum and sister was the similar. Me trying to come to terms with deep sadness. My sister saying my mother did not need to be around this, coming in taking over the house I had retreated to owned by our mother and me trying to rest, feel, heal but not being able to really do it due to invasion. Then my sister asking my mother to choose who she preferred. Mum chose my sister and her ex husband because in her words “they were not unhappy all the time”. I started getting headaches after this time. I took myself off to the UK shortly afterward but boarded with a family with a similar dynamic and had a bike crash. Bad panic attacks and the swirling difficulties I experienced and have experienced since began then really bad C-PTSD as I now understand it, an accumulation of a head injury trauma reaction and complicated grief.

        I got precious little support after my father died and I have shared about this in my blog. I was drinking very heavily at the time and having outbursts due to repressed grief. It took many years for it to surface and my marriage ended due to my husband being threatened by it. Then the next relationship I have just spoken of which ended 4 years ago.

        What I find difficult is that my Mum now claims to have supported me to the best of her ability. Was a good mother, and I should be grateful to have been born into such a happy home. I know now it is denial on her part. She wont own the fact of how alone I was (well only grudgingly). I have been told that I am not alone in suffering, everyone else is suffering too. I finally see it for what it is after the last attempt to get closure or acknowledgement. So while it wasn’t a great idea to confront them both, my sister has apologised while my mother had done one of those confusing narcissistic apologies which is not really an apology but a “how could you be so insensitive as to have pointed out my faults” kind of begrudging defensive apology.

        I think I know what you mean when you say you don’t feel me as angry but as deeply sad and confused. Thank you so much. For so long I have wanted to believe my Mum isn’t a narcissist due to other good qualities in her. I know she is human, not all bad, a subject of her conditioning but I also know I in no way got what I have given. The hardest thing on Friday was having my love questioned after all I have given to her over the past few years. That really, really hurt, but also drove a message home.

        Thank you for the forum to express this here. I always feel the need to apologise for expressing what I really feel and I struggle with a harsh inner critic, I now know MOST DEFINATELY WHY and am therefore much closer to freedom. Perhaps that is the meaning of Jupiter waxing onto Uranus while Uranus is stationing RX to trine my north node at 18 Leo.

        Without blogs like yours and the loving feedback you so tirelessly give I do not know where I would be,

        Thank you so much.
        ❤ ❤ ❤

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          1. Thank you very much 🙂

            Trying to get someone else to acknowledge your side of a story is one of the hardest things in life to do, especially if they are a narcissist. Narcissists are very entrenched in their version of reality. But even non-narcissists can be very attached to their version of events, and may be defensive when you challenged their perception.

            If the story is an old one, one which happened many years ago, then people may be reluctant to go over things, relive the past, and memories are not reliable, they’re easily rewritten, obscured by time, by what happens afterwards, by what is happening now, what people need to believe about what happened, about themselves, particularly when the story is emotionally charged.

            When someone does take the time to listen to your side of a story, particularly if your side involves them being painted in an unflattering way, and they allow that perhaps they were at fault in some way, that they could have done things differently, or they make the effort to understand how you experienced them, even if they feel that your experience of them may be wrong, and if they offer an apology or acknowledgement of any sort, even if it is with reluctance… sometimes that’s all we’re ever going to get, and it can be what we need to move on. They don’t have to do that, so if they do, it needs to be appreciated, even if it falls short of what we were hoping for.

            Your sister gave you an apology, that’s a big step, and makes the confrontation worth it. As for your mother, she explained why she can never give you what you want from her, and that too is a big step. Sometimes not getting what we want, not getting the kind of closure we hoped for, can be as valuable as getting it – it’s closure of another kind.

            The most important person who needs to know your story and acknowledge it is you. That is one of the most precious gifts you can give to yourself, that’s your path to freedom – because you denied yourself your side of the story for so long, and now you are embracing the truth. So give yourself loads of credit for that, and for having the courage to stand firm, stand up for yourself. Your time is now 🙂

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            1. Thanks Ursula…yes there is a real sense of closure with trying to get my Mum to see. She cant fully emrace her own deep pain so …and is invested in her own defence…its not up to me to make her see anything anymore..

              I kept doubting this was so …so I have reveived a gift the end of my own Neptunian wishful thinking….Saturn on the fourth again soon to drive that home.

              I think im more like my Dad in that I think more deeply…Unfortunately he was cut off emotionally too and never stood up to Mum in her whirlwind but shrugged and laughed it off…possibly a good response but left me alone in it..

              Anyway its a gift really…I feel sad for my living sister subtly abused in later years by Mum but with lots of her traits she saw and was trying to change.

              But im powerless over other people I think that is the primary lesdon of interacting. We arr separate to otherd and we can only connect once we know our True self well and learn to know others through empathy…a long journey.

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              1. You did what you needed to do, and stood up for yourself, told your side of the story. The rest is up to them, and like you said, you can’t control what they choose to do. That you’d like for them to understand is always a wish. Maybe one day they will, but you can’t wait around for them to do that. Just keep guiding yourself through your healing and along your path. Let your soul show you the way 🙂

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  3. Reading about narcissists makes what the Lord says about the wicked (unregenerate) clearer. Wasn’t long ago, i thought the Lord was being way too harsh about us humans. So much for what i think ;/

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    1. Thank you for sharing 🙂

      If you consider the history of the human race, we’re still newbies and have a lot of living and learning to do. We’ve come a long way and still have ways to go. Sometimes people like narcissists give the rest of us the inspiration to be a bit more caring, conscientious and aware of our part in humanity. There are a lot of wonderful people in this world, but they’re often the ones who are quiet about it, they just are and they just do. Those who hurt us often get more attention from us than those who soothe us, because pain demands that we heed it, whereas when we feel good, we just feel it.

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  4. Great post! Yes I guess apathy is just a survival mechanism when u live with a narcissist. Denial is also a huge part of it. I can’t imagine how it feels to know u spent half ur life married to or living with a narcissist. But I will never judge anyone for not knowing. It can be very subtle especially with a covert narcissist.

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    1. Thank you very much 🙂

      Yes, you’re right, denial does play a part in it too, and it can be difficult to sort through it as there tends to be more than one kind of denial going on, which makes a knotty mess. Denial is a large part of the narcissist’s repertory, particularly the covert narcissist. So the denial loops back and forth, more and more strings join in and you find yourself entangled with the narcissist. Their lies become yours, and your lies become theirs.

      It’s a strange experience to break free from it when you’ve been in it for a long time, it’s a bit like crossing over from an alternate dimension or another planet.

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        1. I’m fairly certain you’re asking this because of P and your story with P. I’ve been reading up on your posts about P. That story is very complex… lots of factors to consider from many angles.

          For many of those involved in a long term relationship with a narcissist it can take ages to figure things out and finally decide to break free… and that’s not easy by any means.

          To answer your question – yes, sometimes the time spent living it is a benefit and spur, but there’s a long road ahead…

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          1. Yes he knows what she is. He just can’t believe he wasted so many years unhappy. He still thinks he can get answers n closure. Not gonna happen. So I wish him well but he’s out of my life.

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              1. Oh I know that. He’s addicted to her and the abuse. Being ignored, unloved n treated like crap except at parties? He’ll never really have her but he just kept trying.
                Wow, I’m definitely going to read this book! I would like to know why I kept trying to “save” him. Thank u!

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