Venus is the new Pluto… or is Pluto the new Venus?

WARNING: This post contains the astrological musings of someone who isn’t an astrologer but loves astrology (and also someone who often talks complete nonsense which seems sensical enough to them).


Do Not Breathe Under Water


Why do I feel the need to issue such a warning?

It seems as silly to me as it may seems to you, but humans are… silly, especially when serious, sometimes that comes out in the warnings we give to others.

Please don’t tell me you’ve never had a belly laugh at some of the serious warning labels on products or warning signs elsewhere – come on, those things can sometimes be the best joke ever!!!




If you aren’t a fan of astrology, you may be a friend of its friend (and sometimes frenemy) – Astronomy.

Astrology loves astronomy, but astronomy sometimes finds astrology bloody annoying. It sees it a bit as its dopey cousin who keeps following it around wanting to play.

Once upon a time the two were one, then they had a falling out, went their separate ways, sort of, and astronomy still hasn’t forgotten and forgiven astrology for whatever happened. In fact astronomy is now calling astrology a narcissist… that relationship must have gone from honeymoon to hell for that to happen. And we all know how the story goes when our dreams become a nightmare for us…



One of the people whom I love to hate is a TV astronomer – they’re actually a brilliant astronomer (but a rather irritating human, as humans can be to others when we hit those disagreement bumps in the road), they do a great job teaching astronomy, passing on their enthusiasm for being spaced out, however they’ve used the media attention and cred they get for their astronomical genius to diss astrology as though it was some sort of antichrist virus, a black hole for intelligent life.

If you don’t like astrology, just ignore it. Why do you need to hate on it if you think it’s bollocks? Methinks you doth protest hater style a bit too much, as though astrology did something bad to you and you just can’t get over it. You’re obsessed with this insignificant detail, and you’re making it more significant because you keep insisting on its insignificance. If it really isn’t all that… stop making it all that! Did you perhaps get your chart done and it bruised your ego in some way that is unforgivable?

Astrology has a way of doing that… what an a-hole!


Fucking Astrology


Astrology sometimes tells us what we don’t want to hear… for humans that’s reason enough to get our hate on.

Astronomy, on the other hand, is always really nice to us and feeds our ego. It never tells us that planet Earth is a speck of dust from a Big Bang. It never makes us feel insignificant as though one random asteroid could wipe us all out, perhaps because it is having a bad day (in space time) and wants to share that with us.

Astronomy, viewed through human filters, always flatters us by informing us that we’re the only intelligent life in the universe. Aren’t we awesome!?!

Astronomy news lately has been filled with those fantastic (and slightly unbelievable) pics of Pluto.

Pluto, lord of the underworld, demoted planet (who doesn’t bear a grudge with us for that, for our fickleness, our proclivity to have to categorise everything and everyone, and then change our minds a billion light year times…), harbinger of doom sometimes in astrology… has a heart on it!




That heart on Pluto lets us know that Pluto loves us and… we are all loving Pluto at the moment. Astronomically!!!

Astrologically… our love for Pluto is less of love and more of… a human love for shifting blame from ourselves onto someone or something else.

Pluto is transiting Capricorn, a sign which so many seem to love to hate.

I got a missive on one of my old posts about Capricorn recently, wherein the commenter said something along the lines of all Capricorns really should be killed because we’re all so awful, except we’re apparently good at sex so… as long as we keep it up, other signs won’t kill us off even though they want to.

Wow! Thanks! That’s really very generous and so very kind! We’re such psychopaths compared to you!

Capricorn is known for being ambitious, quite good at survival, interested in power games, and… being kept alive as a sex slave is at the top of the ‘things I aim to achieve’ list for all power-hungry Capricorns.

Be careful though… if you think we’re toxic and you’re messing with us…


toxic waste warning


In Astrology, the transit of Pluto in Capricorn has had a lot of attention, partly due to its link to Uranus transiting Aries. This Square dance between them has been blamed and credited with a lot of things affecting all of us, personally and on a larger scale than that.

Our global financial mess is being linked to the Pluto/Uranus square… especially the Pluto in Capricorn side of it. Uranus in Aries… well, it’s Uranus… the freedom chaser and fighter (as in fighting for freedom rather than fighting freedom… although sometimes…), and Aries will be Aries… like boys will be boys… and like girls aren’t allowed to use that same excuse (although sometimes… PMS… and things…).

Some of the articles on this combo make a certain amount of sense… however… love for money and things material isn’t really just a Pluto in Capricorn thing. And the desire to break free from old systems of power and stuff isn’t just an Uranus in Aries thing…

All humans have a rebel gene…



…it just adapts to circumstances, and sometimes rebels by wearing a suit and tie and carrying a briefcase. Perhaps the Yuppie generation were just rebelling against their dippy Hippie parents… Greed is good was a reaction to too much making love and not war.

It’s not a Pluto in astrology thing at all to get stuck in old systems, although… power is… a Pluto thing… something it is obsessed with… just as humans are… and humans often equate material wealth and stuff with power. Pluto… sometimes does that and sometimes it encourages you to burn it… burn it with fire!


burning bridges


Capricorn is materialistic… according to astrology, but the sign may only be materialistic because it is interested in what humans associate with power. The materialistic side of Capricorn is after power, not material things. If a blender is a source or symbol of power for people, we want it. But if all it is is a blender which mushes stuff up… then we can do without it. We can make smoothies with our hands if need be.

Am I kidding?

Maybe… perhaps…

Perhaps I should point out that astrologically I have Pluto in the 1st house of identity, self, and it aspects my Sun (ego) in Capricorn quite cheerfully with a Trine. And transiting Pluto is straddling my Sun… kinky!


sexy beastA great film featuring a Cappy in a very stereotypical Capricorn role…


However love for money… materialistic love… love… that’s the territory of Venus.

I recently came across a rather superficial article about Venus in the chart and what it means – Using Your Venus… – never dismiss the superficial, as it can sometimes be as informative (maybe more so) as the deep. Not in the same way, but still the surface of things often reflects the deep within for us.

What we see on the surface of others (and other things which represent something to us) can be what lies deeply within us… and we only see it when we project it onto the screen that others (or things) are for ourselves.


what we see in others(can you tell that this post is rushed, that there are things going on which you can’t see…?)


Complexities of human relationships aside… or perhaps delving into them in from a different angle…

Your natal Venus can tell you how you attract other people… what attracts others to you. It’s the charm you turn on or is always on to be appealing to others, sometimes it’s natural, sometimes it’s the natural nurtured, sometimes it’s a bit more artificial… but the artificial needs a natural base, like make up needs your face as a starting point. It’s your hostess with the mostest, your come hither look.

You don’t only use this Venusian charm to attract lovers of a carnal nature… for instance, an actor with a prominent and desirable Venus placement will attract fans. Fans = box office success. Box office success = money. Power also comes with that, but who holds it? The fans, the actor, the people behind the actor…?

A well-placed Venus can attract power, money, success… and be in love with those things too.

Venus is… adaptable in love. Love is an abstract… it becomes the vessel it fills. Can take any shape… form… become any object.

Speaking of which… my natal Venus:


Venus in Pisces.

… is kind of spot on when it comes to describing certain aspects of my relationships with others. Both the pros and the cons… and the cons of the pros and the pros of the cons. Okay it doesn’t capture it all… but… it’s there if you want to see it.

If I’d been willing to just be who others want me to be for them… maybe I’d be rich and powerful by now (pipe-dream!!??).

I don’t know… my effing Pluto in the 1st house tends to scupper things for my Venus.

It’s a bit more complicated than that… always is… especially with humans.

Basically… people often mistake me for someone they want me to be rather than who I am. I used to think that was my fault, sometimes it is, but sometimes it’s their fault for projecting a dream onto me and expecting me to live up to it without telling me what it is… then getting mad at me for disappointing them because I’m too human and not dreamy enough.

We all do that, project our dreams onto others… who happen to be blank at the time to us because we needed them to be blank. Then we took some time to get to know them and…


There’s more to it than that… there’s more to me than that… more to you…

I have tried to warn people about me, less because of me and more because of them and their projections… of which I’ve learned to be very wary.

…but… people don’t necessarily heed warnings…

…do they, do we.


warning label


If we did… well, many warning signs just wouldn’t need to exist.

Something, something… over to you!






  1. The moon will be full tonite, in fact, a rare blue moon, in case you didn’t know. Maybe this inspired your post! 🙂


      • New movie with Jason Stratham on Netflix! War. Did you delete your box office films site because I still can’t find it. I feel like I’ve upset you somehow and this was never my intention. I sincerely appreciated you insight and advice with what I’m dealing with. However, if you’re uncomfortable with my expressions, please let me know.Her latest contact was that “she loved me, was sorry, knew she made many mistakes, and she belongs to me.” I didn’t faulter this time, but questioned if I was the true narc. The answer revealed itself later with her asking. if I was willing to move to her area. No love, sorrow, or self-reflection involved. I’m still lost at understanding, but the acceptance has evolve. I’m sorry if I can’t remember your favourite author. I didn’t mean to offend you in any way. Peace and prayers.


        • Yes, I removed that post. You asked me to delete some of your comments on it. The last time you asked me to delete your comments I understood why you asked, I complied with the request even though it also meant deleting my replies to you, and I requested that you not make a habit of asking me to delete your comments as I don’t like deleting comments or my replies. I decided that the simplest option was to delete the post as it was a silly post and you were the only one who had commented on it so deleting didn’t affect anyone else and you wanted your comments deleted. End of story. I also need to clean up my messy blog, so it’s a starting point.

          Yes, I’m a bit annoyed with you, but it’ll pass, nothing serious, no drama on my end, none needed on your end. I’m irritable at the moment as things are stressful. I also have a narcissist to deal with in my life and I’m fed up.

          I’m not offended. I don’t care if you remember my fav author or not, it is irrelevant. It did however shine a light on something – you’re going around in a circle with your narcissist. Some of that is due to her, some of that is due to you. You keep asking me the same questions and not really listening to the answers, as though you keep hoping my answers will be different next time you ask the question. I realise you’re stuck, it’s easy to get stuck, and you are having a hard time coming to terms with things, coming to terms with things is always hard. That’s why I linked you to Kim’s blog – – because she knows what it’s like to be in a romantic relationship with a narcissist. My experience with narcissists is mainly a parental one.

          I don’t have a problem with you, so feel free to keep hanging out here, but please remember I’m human and have human stuff going on in my life too.


          • Thank you for the direction and explanation. I don’t share much, and I found your ‘ear’ and understanding comforting. I’m sorry if I relied on this too much. I know you have your own juju going on, but you’ve seemingly come through it well, and I was just seeking the same. After her last contacts without self-reflection or remorse, I’ve completely accepted she is what she is without doubt. I guess my hope was holding out. I picked drinking again for the past several days with the blinds shut, wondering why I can’t just pick myself up and move on. I honestly just want to cry, but the tears just don’t come. I’m sorry that my shares were burdensome. I will keep them to a slight. I still enjoy your shares, writing and stories. Keep posting! And please continue to pass along any movies you would find worthy of review. I sincerely love the art in this particular form.

            Have you viewed this one yet?
            I think you’ll find it rather entertaining. Namaste


            • I totally get that, and appreciate it. My blog is a place I come to get a bit of respite and perspective, to vent and figure my own stuff out as I vent. So I get it when people use my blog to do the same.

              I’m just really exhausted right now, the past couple of years have been draining on me because of having to revisit old haunts which I had kind of left behind me, and other reasons, in some ways it’s been great as I tend to post more when I’m stressed and share more because of it, but there’s a flip side to everything and therefore sometimes I’m less understanding than people need me to be for them because I haven’t got anything left to give.

              I’m human like you are, and prone to being very messy 🙂

              Just need you to remember that I’m human and have a life going on which ain’t picture perfect, I may seem sorted but am I? What we see in others is often what we need them to be for us rather than who they are. I have narcissists of my own to deal with.

              And you do need to stop obsessing about your ex, you’re making things worse for yourself by doing that. I know it’s difficult as narcissists like you being obsessed with them, encourage it, poke and prod until they’re all you can think of, and they’re like any addictive substance… so, stop. Pause. Think. Reflect. Focus on yourself, not on her. What you need must come from you, not from others.

              You can do it but only if you’re determined to do it.

              Want a movie about a female narcissist – La Spagnola ( – it’s Aussie but it’s subtitled.


              • No worries love, I love your regardless. My life has been icky sticky lately, and it doesn’t all have to do with her. I’m sorry you’re dealing with the same sick. I just never saw this one coming. Love you Ursula. Keep loving yourself.


                  • I wasn’t trying to be disrespectful. I was trying to be humorous. I’m sorry if thats humor didn’t come across. I’m very upset about her stating that she wanted to see me for my birthday. my birthday was yesterday and it was all just a little one in almost a year. I hate her for this but I hope you understand my mind frame
                    I’m sorry to be so heavy. thank you for everythimg Ursula


                    • Happy Birthday! 🙂

                      You’re a Leo Sun, explains a lot. Have you ever had your astrology chart done? It’s an interesting way to explore the self, and stuff.

                      So Kim is the name of your ex. I don’t think you’ve shared that info before.

                      I do get your frame of mind at the moment, sort of, you’re a big ball of hurt right now, your skin is raw, and you keep poking your own wounds, making them bleed again and again. Sometimes you hope someone else might offer healing, but you’re the only one who can heal what’s going on with you… a part of you prefers the pain, has grown attached to suffering. Your suffering and pain have sort of become your identity. Maybe that’s just online. We get attention when we’re suffering… when we’re okay we don’t get that kind of attention. But others giving you attention for it isn’t going to heal it, it may actually encourage you never to heal. It’s up to you – what is it you really want and what are you really doing?


                    • Thanks for the birthday wishes. I told you I was a lion awhile back. I’ve never gotten my chart done but I do believe astrology plays a big part in our lives. her name is not Kim. I’m just done with forums about narcs. I didn’t expect you to join me in the pain. I just took comfort in your understanding. but I have embraced the pain, unfortunately. my life is very messy right now in all ways and not just emotionally. she dismantle it piece by piece year after year
                      I seem to take one step forward and then four back. I just want some quiet peace for awhile in so that I can gather myself but it doesn’t seem to happen with her constant irritations. it’s all just for sport forever for her. thank you for all your advice and understanding. I’m going to take a break for a while. with love and respect. Cheers


                    • One of the most important things to do when dealing with the aftermath of being in a relationship with a narcissist is to take a long hard look at your own participation in the problem. Not in a blaming, shaming way, but as a way to free yourself from the ties which bind. Do you really want to be free of the drama or are you addicted to it and don’t want it to stop. You have power in this situation. All that pain is actually a powerful energy, the kind which can be used for healing, but can also be used for hurting, yourself and others.

                      Like a lion with a thorn in its paw – the lion lashes out at the world because it is hurting then wonders why everyone else is being such an a-hole. If the lion wants to stop being in pain, then it has to remove the thorn – but the lion is perhaps afraid of removing the thorn because it has become rather attached to it, to the pain, to the strange kind of self importance which that pain gives it, to the excuses it can make for itself because it is wounded, and to the justification that none of this is its fault. The lion didn’t deliberately step on a thorn, didn’t want or intend to get hurt, however why does it keep the thorn when it has recognised that it is there and could take it out, and allow the wound to heal.

                      Astrologically at the moment there’s a lot going on in Leo – Venus is going backwards through the sign, which may stir up issues connected to relationships, especially how we sometimes create our own relationship disasters, especially in love, or if we didn’t create them how we sometimes make things worse for ourselves.

                      No one else can give you what you want in life, in love, etc, only you can do that, no one owes you anything even if you think they do, and if you keep trying to get others to give you what you want, you’re going to keep getting frustrated. And if you try to take it from them, because you think someone owes you something, or should give you something, then you’re going to turn yourself into your ex. Especially if the person who you want something from is a narcissist. That is a danger when we’ve been in a relationship with a narcissist, they have a way of bringing out the narcissist in others, in us.

                      Perspective is vital, and taking a break is a good idea – a while back you started doing some things for yourself which made you feel really good about yourself. That’s the way to go. Give yourself a break, give yourself the experience of feeling good about yourself. Take that trip you wanted to take. Buy a motorcycle and be an easy rider, go somewhere you’ve always wanted to go and meet some new people along the way. The world is not populated by your ex.

                      Take care!


                    • I don’t blame anyone and no one owes me shit. The “thorn” has imbedded itself in so deep that I am unable to remove and not trying to pass along the pain. I would be so done if I didn’t have a little one. She doesn’t deserve abandoment. But I just need quiet and space to get my head in the right place which isn’t happening. I just didn’t know what the duck I was dealing with and unfortunately i don’t have the funds to do what I’d like at the moment.


                    • Thing about you is that you’re a really great guy with a heart of gold, and you deserve to enjoy that, you deserve to be happy being yourself, living your life. Your ex poisoned who you are for you, made all the great things about you seem like bad things, and you lost yourself in her version of you. That can happen when you fall in love with a narcissist. Your love was good, don’t let the experience with her make your love a bad thing.

                      Don’t keep letting yourself get caught in the drama. You did the right thing to get out, let yourself be out of it. You’re very smart, you know what you need to know about narcissists, about your ex, you need to remind yourself of what you know and use it to break the vicious cycle. She keeps dragging you back in, and you keep letting yourself get dragged in because you hope to get something which you’ll never get from a narcissist. You’ll never get her to understand anything, she’s stuck in her own private hell which she shares with those who have a relationship with her. You don’t need to be stuck in her hell, or your own private hell, and you don’t deserve to be there.

                      Your little one needs you to be the sane one.

                      I’ve been where you are. I’ve been there recently thanks to my mother showing up like a wrecking ball. I know the pain and the fury. Many years ago it turned me into a very narcissistic person, hurting others because I was hurting and not being able to see what I was doing, and even when I could see it I didn’t know how to get out of the deep dark hole I was in. I would ruin any chance of happiness because I couldn’t handle being happy, I was too comfortable being a miserable ‘mare. It was safer being miserable than taking the risk of being happy and then have my parents ruin it for me with their drama and chaos.

                      I eventually had to be brutally honest with myself, which hurt like fuck but it did snap me out of the cycle I was in, and forced me to make the effort to figure things out and get out, then stay out. Staying out is sometimes the biggest challenge because you’re in new territory and it can be frightening to live outside of the realm of the drama, narcissists make it seems so attractive and it can be very addictive. Happiness is rather boring compared to misery sometimes.

                      I’ve been a bit hard on you recently because you’re so close to freeing yourself from the mess. It’ll take longer to flush the narcissist toxins out of your system. But you out of all people can definitely do it and succeed, you’ve got balls, golden balls!

                      Do you surf? I knew a guy once who lived with his family, they’d forced him to come back home because of a drama, and he got hopelessly stuck in their chaos. He was a very angry guy. But, he surfed. And when he surfed he was one of the sweetest, happiest, chilled guys you could ever meet. Surfing was the place he went to be himself, reconnect with who he was, get away from the chaos at home. Eventually he decided he’d had enough of other people’s chaos and he moved to California (took a road trip to get there) to surf. No idea what happened to him, but just before he left he had such a radiant glow about him.

                      Find something you can do which is all yours, where you just go with the flow of being and everything else melts away for a while. Get back in touch with the great guy that you are!


  2. Oh my. I don’t know what to say about Venus, as you might recall from our recent astro-chat. I fear she doesn’t like me much. Even though transit Neptune has been trining her for over a year and will be doing so into next spring.

    My natal Venus being in Scorpio (Pluto-ruled), and my natal Pluto (and Uranus and Jupiter) conjunct Ascendant, I don’t know what to say about Venus-Pluto either. I think they’ve become entangled for me…at least in my more naive days they were so.

    One thing I do know: in recent years I have grown terribly tired of reading that Venus is only about relationships. I am so effing sick of that word…relationships. I suppose that’s natal South Node in Libra talking.

    I am so effing sick of being preached at about relationships, that now I basically tune that sh*t out or turn it off. I just want to be left alone. Seems you know how that is!

    My goodness, though…you’ve got natal Pluto trine Sun AND transit Pluto conjunct Sun (so, trine itself)? Hoo, doggie…that’s a whopper to deal with, I bet. Maybe in the best way. Maybe it’s the right thing at the right time, to help you cultivate your own kind of power and light as you arise from the darkness and ashes of your past.

    You phoenix, you. 😉


    • Thank you very much 🙂

      I’m actually probably too comfortable with Pluto and its effect on the Sun (ego). Getting my ego destroyed is parr for the course, if someone else doesn’t do it, I will instigate it. I also have Saturn square Sun natally – it’s always reminding me that I’m useless. Transiting Uranus is conjunct my natal Saturn – it’s been interesting. The usual has been unusual.

      Venus/Neptune contacts… I have that natally by square and by transit – transiting Neptune is just now slowly edging away from conjuncting my Venus. So glad my Nep square Nep ending a while ago, that was truly draining. When I first read up on Nep/Venus conjunct due to a Nep transit it had a tagline of – Everything is beautiful. I was like – yes, it is… but that can be a problem as much as it can be a solution.

      Neptune/Venus contacts are confusing because they offer so much but what is real? And does it matter what is real and what isn’t?

      In superficial astrology my Venus in Pisces gets a lot of loving – especially by others, by astrologers who write about it, as others see it as being a people-pleasing placement of the positive kind. Oh, you have Venus in Pisces, great, let me share all my problems with you, I know you’ll be understanding and compassionate, I also know that you’ll hide your own problems from me because you don’t want to bother me with them, so everything will become about me and not you! Venus in Pisces doesn’t mind and encourages that!

      Frankly… I love my Venus in Pisces, but not always! It’s a bit of a bleeding heart placement.

      Venus in Scorpio usually, superficially, gets the – Oh, wow, aren’t you the siren who no one can resist! – if it is only considered in terms of relationship with others then maybe you are a siren, at least for others and their experience of you. You can handle the dark side of others, may even encourage them to explore what is taboo and revive them because you can accept it, it’s child’s play to you. You love the dark and deep, and can help others to appreciate it too – which is why you’re a siren to them. The beautiful mermaid who is sensuous central…

      But what about your side of it?

      And what about everything else it connects with?

      Anything in Scorpio… needs an understanding of Pluto. So Venus in Scorpio needs to figure out its connection to Pluto in the chart.

      This post was partly inspired by the fact that transiting Venus is in my 12th house. It be stirring those murky waters… transiting Mercury and Jupiter are there too. That’s where my natal Moon resides. I often have no idea what I’m feeling, and may feel… that I feel nothing. Which is quite attractive to others if your feeling nothing allows them to fill that void with the everything they’re feeling.

      Venus in Pisces is sometimes that annoying person in a film or TV show who has something to say but so do others and it lets others go first and then decides not to say anything because what others said first has changed its mind about spilling its beans.

      Have you explored the transit of Saturn in Scorpio, it’s about to go direct on its last visit in the sign. Quite a few astrologers have written about the importance of this transit, especially in relation to its last visit there, and since it will have transited your Venus – it will have honed the meaning of your experience of all aspects of love and Venus related matters. It has also been in mutual reception with Pluto in Capricorn. There’s some intriguing cross overs between the two.

      Has you noticed that the more you want to be left alone… the more that seems to invite others to not leave you alone? Try to connect with others and they run like hell, but run like hell and suddenly they want to connect.

      Life is weird… astrology can sometimes shine a light on why it is that way 🙂


      • Wow! Where do I begin? :^) It’s all good.

        Transit Uranus conjunct your Saturn…in Aries…oooh! Liberation from what’s been limiting your true self. And surprises, so they say…I’ll be having that transit sometime next year, delayed by Uranus going retro just a couple of degrees shy of my Saturn.

        You’ve touched on something that’s been causing me such ache…the Neptune-Venus “what’s real, and is *any* of it useful in waking life?” dilemma. For me, while Neptune is trining my Scorp Venus, it’s also opposing my Virgo Mars. Oy. I want to get moving on so many practical, detailed projects…and I can’t get a dang thing going. Successive shutdowns for a year or more now.

        What you say about your Venus in Pisces sounds so much like my own experience with Moon (and Descendant) in the fishie sign. That’s another reason I think I’ve burned out on the relationships thing.

        AS for Saturn soon to leave Scorpio, oh, my dear, I can only pray that it will bring some respite. I have a loaded Scorpio sector: Mercury, Pallas, Venus, Juno, Ceres, and Neptune…the first four in my second house, the last two in the third (Placidus…but sometimes I wonder…). I suppose I’m like you, having so much under the rulership of Pluto that I don’t know anything else.

        But it might interest you to know that the day Saturn entered Scorpio back in October 2012 was the very day I got clued into the fact that my former director was a malignant narcissist.

        As for Venus in Scorpio, well, I still don’t know very well what it needs (or needs to tell me), but the siren thing is only a small slice of it and long past now…so I go on pondering. I do find it hard to let go of things I’ve loved and valued, and yes, I have been finding SO often lately how people “run like hell” when I do reach out, but when THEY want something from ME, well…who am I to turn them away, right?

        Argh. Yes, understanding some astrology can help explain oftentimes why we and others do what we do. And through it I find a lot of insights into the endless permutations of individual uniqueness — more, of individual paths. Knowing some astrology definitely has taught me that trying to control or preach to or judge others is pointless…their way is their own, as mine is mine.

        Have you ever tried to put together a list of natal placements or aspects that might show an individual who’s a “prime” target for narcissists? Venus in Pisces and Moon in the 12th (or in Pisces, as mine) sound like a place to begin…


        • That’s an intriguing question – Can a tendency to attract narcissists be seen in the natal chart?

          I’ve read quite a few astrology posts by astrologers exploring narcissism through astrology, trying to identify the possible signs of narcissism in a natal chart, attempting to figure out which aspects or placements are most likely to show a tendency towards being a narcissist. Quite a few focus on Neptune because of its connections to delusion and illusion, magical thinking, etc.

          There’s a really interesting book – Through the Looking Glass by Richard Idemon. It’s compiled transcripts from an astrology workshop. It explores relationships through the natal chart. Very insightful, especially due to the way it is written, conversations, people relating while discussing relationships, which adds depth to the subject. The Moon and Venus are discussed quite a bit as they are connected to how we relate.

          I’ve also read a few threads on astrology forums discussing NPD and astrology, but they mostly approach it from the same angle – trying to figure out which sign or placement is most connected to someone being a narcissist. Trying to identify narcissists using astrology.

          The few astrological discussions about attracting narcissists which I’ve read tend to focus on the assumption that narcissists seek out empathic people. Which in some cases is correct, some narcissists are drawn to people who offer or appear to offer them compassion, understanding, and empathy.

          However not all narcissists are looking for that from others.

          They’re attracted to people based on the ‘blank’ in themselves which they’re trying to fill, an aspect of personality which they want and which someone else represents, the role they have in their life story movie that needs a certain character. They collect different people for different reasons, and may keep the different people separate from each other, therefore those people don’t know about the others (although they sometimes find out about them and are shocked to find that the narcissist finds this person attractive). Narcissists are prone to compartmentalising. They are prone to being different people to each person they meet.

          Therefore the problem with trying to connect natal placements with attracting narcissists is that narcissists tend to be attracted to different people for different reasons. In some ways I suppose one could conjecture that a narcissist is filling each part of their chart with people who represent a certain house, planet, placement, for them. So they need one person for one thing, another for another thing, one person for their identity, another for their values, another for their intellect, etc.

          Most of the narcissists I have known flit from one person to another based on what they need – they may discard you for a while, during that time they don’t need what you represent for them, however also during that time they’re in the company of someone else who does represent what they need at that time, then they get their fill of that energy and move on to someone else, maybe come back to you. They rarely like being alone as it usually scares the crap out of them, they need others to be their mirror, without others they don’t know who they are – who they are depends on others, and they need different people to reflect who they want to be at any given time.

          So narrowing it down may be more complicated than it might seem to be. Perhaps the easier option is to focus on why you think you attract narcissists, and then work with your chart exploring that – however if the narcissists are your parents, then they weren’t attracted to you (if you use karma, then you could say that you were attracted to them – but is that a narcissism issue?), they didn’t ‘target’ you per se. A child of narcissists may get ‘molded’ into whoever the narcissist parent needs them to be, and because a child is quite malleable, and this trait is much liked by narcissists as you become a multi-purpose tool for them… that could set a person up to always present a malleable face to the world which would be attractive to a lot of different narcissists who seek a magic mirror.

          And for every person we attract, there is our attraction to them to consider too. Attraction is not just positive, it is negative too.

          On my post about Chiron in the 7th ( I’ve had quite a people share that they also have Chiron in that house (some in the same sign, others in other signs), and have also had a relationship with a narcissist, particularly with a parent, usually the mother, who was a narcissist.

          Chiron is a tricky astrological character – in some ways it points to the negative which draws us to it so that we can be wounded, because we need to be wounded to inspire us to work towards healing.

          And there’s also transits to consider. And the interaction between your chart and the chart of your particular narcissist, and the transits in their chart which may have influenced their choice of ‘target’ at that time.

          I have played around with my chart trying to figure out which parts of it connect with my experience of narcissists. Not just what attracts them, but also what repels them. My Venus in Pisces and Moon in 12th both factor in for me as possible attractors for narcissists. They’re connected via an opposition, and a square to Neptune (it’s a T-square in the delusion/illusion sector of my chart).

          Those Moon in 12th tends to hide their emotions both from themselves and from others – which is great for narcissists as they’re not interested in your emotions, they want to project their emotions onto you, and have you feel what they want you to feel when they want you to feel it, both negatively and positively. Funnily enough when I show my emotions openly narcissists tend to run a mile.

          I mostly attract covert narcs, the overt narcs I’ve met usually dislike me. I think this is because covert narcs tend to play emotional games, whereas overt narcs play mind games. I’m quite reserved around people when it comes to emotions, but I’m not at all reserved when it comes to the mind. That may be due to my natal chart – Mars in Scorpio in the 3rd square Mercury, Uranus trine Mercury, and Mercury in the 5th (loves to play). Or it could be due to growing up with narcs who encouraged mental dexterity but stunted emotional expression.

          The chart needs to be seen in connection with ourselves, our story, because our placements get shaped by our lives. SO one person with the same placement may express it differently due to live experience… what do you think?


          • Yes, I agree…there’s little or nothing cut-and-dried about astrology, charts, placements, and how the chart owners experience and behave in life. The scope of meanings and possibilities is much too vast. That kind of shifting, artistic uniqueness is one of astrology’s compelling attractions…and frustrations!

            There’s a natal aspect I have, Neptune sextile Ascendant, for which I found a long interpretation including this quote:
            “People are misled by your sympathetic and docile nature into thinking that you will not challenge them.”

            When I saw that, I had to laugh, because it expresses so clearly why I think my malignant narc former director hired me. It’s particularly a laugh when you consider that I also have three planets plus Chiron square my Midheaven…a natural born rebel against Authoritah!

            I think it was Kim Saeed over at Let Me Reach (and perhaps other sources as well) who said that individuals of the Myers-Briggs INFJ personality type (which I usually test as) are very frequently targets of narcs. And that Neptune-sextile-Ascendant aspect feels to me a lot like the INFJ vibe — the Counselor Idealist. Empathetic, wanting to fix what’s broken, flowing with things, keeping oneself to oneself as a general practice…stuff we’ve been discussing here.

            You wrote in your Chiron-in-the-7th post: “In all my encounters with therapists, healers, and such, I have always ended up sitting quietly listening to them tell me about their problems.” Yeesh! INFJ much? 😉 (I’ve often had the same kind of experience.)

            Your Moon-Venus-Neptune T-square sounds fascinating. What a trio of rich, beautiful energies to be so connected. How have you worked with the dynamism of the T-square? What house and sign hold the “missing leg” across from the Neptune apex?

            I have natal and progressed T-squares, and I’m trying to understand what to do with them — how exactly to use the empty place to resolve the tension. For instance, I have several natal T-squares with the missing leg on my IC in late Sag. Does that mean that I’ll always have a hole in my life on the home/roots/philosophy front, that’s just the way it is, so suck it up and deal with it? Or if not, what the heck am I supposed to do, and how, to fill that hole and solve the mystery?

            It can be so vague and confusing, you know?


            • There’s a great section in Howard Sasportas’ book – The Twelve Houses – in which he goes into aspects between houses, thus squares, oppositions, etc, and how they may play out and be experienced. With my T-square I explored it using his guidelines, and then checked out the ’empty’ section, and read it as though the T-square opposed and squared a placement in it.

              Astrology is largely an abstract concept – so it can be worked with by adding a theoretically point. What you call a ‘missing leg’ can become a real limb, if you want it to be. And if you used’s massive asteroid list, or fixed stars, or hypothetical points, you’d probably find that the house has something in it and may actually turn your T-square into a grand cross.

              My T-square also focuses upon the 9th house through what is ‘missing’. So, what is the 9th house, what is missing, and if we explore the missing link, does it help, does it bring balance, or a solution of some sort?

              For me the 9th = philosophy, travel (not just of the physical kind), the willingness to go, visit, enter, lands which are ‘foreign’. To be willing to be rootless, yet find a ‘home’ there, but to also be aware that this ‘home’ may be temporary and the roots found may get pulled up before they settle, find nourishment – but perhaps that is their nourishment and the unsettled element is what is settled.

              It’s not dissimilar to experiencing a narcissist, and what we learn from that experience, especially if that experience is a new thing rather than something familiar, rather than the long term North Node or natal Chiron karmic juju.

              Your experience of your particular narcissist – What did you learn from it? Could you equate it to the T-square and to the ‘missing leg’? Were you perhaps thrown into a foreign land, forced to travel into territory which was new? Did it change your philosophy of life?

              Compare natal and progressed, and solar return (especially during the time of your narcissist experience) – where are you going, where did it lead, what was the destination, what was the starting point, what was the journey between starting point and destination – all these can be seen through a chart – natal, with transit and progressed.

              Squares, oppositions, hard aspects… they’re a gold mine, if we’re willing to let the pain show us the way.

              I’m an INTP, btw. This is an intriguing site for exploring the MBTI – – but I would say that as the person who created it is an INTP 😉


            • I came across this post – – this morning, and thought you might find it interesting with regards to your missing leg in late Sag. Yes, it’s about nodes, however that is actually helpful as it addresses the challenges of learning to balance ourselves.

              It’s also interesting that the link you gave me, when I click on it, takes me to an error 404 message. With the way my mind works that is relevant. It could be viewed as the universe saying that perhaps what you think people see is not actually what they see, or that others are not the only ones being misled, where Neptune is concerned – we may be misled by ourselves, our perception of ourselves may not be as real as we think it is.

              IMO, dealing with a T-square requires understanding the issues the T-square points at. You have to understand the problem first. What is missing is what we think is missing, and what we think is missing is perceived through the eyes of the problem. Thus what you think lies in the realm of the missing leg is actually what lies in the T-square.

              With the missing leg in Sag, on the IC, and squares to the IC, maybe the ‘natural born rebel against Authoritah’ (which is also a Uranus in 1st/esp. conjunct ASC tendency) needs to understand the true nature of their rebellion, and the underlying dynamic of it. The rebel needs to see that they need the very Authority against which they are rebelling as a rebel ceases to be a rebel without someone or something to rebel against and if that is an identity which is dear to them, through which their ego defines itself, then the rebel may be causing the situations as much as they think those in Authority are causing them.

              In some ways the 9th house/Sag requires the centaur (which connects to the other astrological centaurs) to know the ground their are treading, to truly understand the path, every grain of earth which constitutes it, the lay of the land behind, below, ahead, and to also pay attention that in their quest for freedom they are not trampling on the freedoms of others. Quite a few historical rebels have become dictators, and they sometimes become far worse in their authoritarianism than the authority which they overthrew. Some rebels want the authority against which they rebel. It’s a natural progression to move from one extreme to another, because it is a whole, therefore the rebel must experience the other side, they need to know what having authority is actually like, experience what they are truly fighting, and be the one who others may rebel against to understand the whole dynamic. Are trying to fix what they think is broken by breaking it, and once they have broken it with what do they replace what is broken?

              I find it intriguing that you said you have ‘a hole in my life on the home/roots/philosophy front’ – sounds to me as though there is no hole there at all, but what is full is perceived as being empty and so it is. Neptune makes its illusions seem real. Then along comes Saturn…

              During one particularly hard Saturn transit, conjunct my Moon (therefore affecting my t-square), it was made very clear to me that pretty much all of the problems I had with others, with the world, with myself, in life, were created by me. I had to take stock and make an inventory of all my grievances and then rethink them.

              The problem and the solution lie within us, they’re a part of us, they make us who we are. Sometimes it’s time to ditch an identity (Pluto in the 1st), sometimes the rebel needs to grow up and become an authority in their own life, of themselves. The rebel has had enough practice at being a rebel and needs some practice at being an authority – an authority on being rebellious 😉


  3. Hi Ursula, Egotistical Douchebag here. 😉 ( Hoping to give you a smile.) I don’t know much about astrology other than that I’m a Leo (July 30) married to another Leo (Aug 6), which my limited information tells me can be either really good or really bad.(It’s been really good.) What’s been more interesting to me, though, is the conversation you had with Beth about narcissism & astrology. Fascinating.

    I also read your exchange with M. I know from the tone of your posts (and directly, also) that you’re going through a shitty time of it right now. Please accept a virtual hug, and remember that everything you do here is greatly valued, as are you. I really hope that this will be over soon for you. 🙂


    • Hi there, Egotistical Douchebag, Greedy Emo with Neurotic Bitch rising here 😉 You totally made me smile! You always do, as a Leo it is natural for you to shine your Sun even where it don’t shine like under the rock Capricorns like me hide (even though we’re supposed to be climbing such things).

      I got into trouble with Beth due to what I said. M is a little more forgiving about the stuff I say to him, perhaps because he realises I’m a nutcase.

      Blogging is weird, sometimes I think people think I’m being a ‘writer’ in my posts rather than just being myself, and they don’t quite get that I really am this messy human who analyses herself and stuff to death 😉

      Your virtual hugs are much appreciated, more so because they’re virtual – real hugs make me nervous and bring out my inner ninja (not the onion-cutting kind).

      I’m fine, just really fed up with narcissist stuff. I try to keep focused on what’s good rather than what is not, but sometimes I’m just a tired and cranky old goat!


      • Yes, I read your exchange with Beth on the other post. I really wasn’t sure why she became so upset. My interpretation is that you were participating in a lively back and forth, but I didn’t get the impression that you were insulting, just expressing a different point of view. It’s unfortunate.

        I don’t see you as a nutcase at all. Or maybe I’m a nutcase, too. 😉

        While your writing is often quite lyrical, I understand that your blog is an outlet, a place to explore and self-reflect. We readers get to participate in that process. 🙂 There are so many people on WordPress who are aspiring writers that I guess the groupthink is that everyone else is, too.

        Good to hear that you’re fine. We all get to be tired and cranky at times. I had a major case of the cranks the day before moving day. M told me that I was being testy. I think he was being kind.

        As you tell so many others, be good to yourself. 🙂


        • I’m sorry but I don’t recall the incident. but testy is not a word I would use. fiesty is. but it would be used in good humor and fun. I don’t have a problem with you or anyone in fact online. it’s not worth my time or energy. I’m new to this. I stumbled down the rabbit hole through my experience with a narc. I found a lot of kooks and a lot of good people. I think Ursula is one of those good people although she won’t take the compliment. I find her writing style intriguing expanding and eloquent. I also find her writing style spot on and interesting. I know she’s going through a lot with her pesky and billy mother. but I still believe she’s a nutcase lol. aren’t we all in our own ways? I didn’t catch the conversation with Beth. but I believe fighting online is retarded. even if you win you’re still retarded. I don’t believe Ursula partook cared too or tried to. but she has very strong opinions. I hope she will continue to express them without hesitation or editing. isn’t this the point? I wish the best for both of you.



        • Thank you 🙂

          Human life is a constantly evolving thingamajob, and interactions are like slinkies. I could never get my slinky to work properly! Grumble!

          And you be good to yourself too (and we’ll both nod, then probably not do that) 😉


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