Chiron opposition Pluto – When Old Wounds Resurface

If I change my mind one more about about the subject of this post, the post may implode before I publish it…

but I wasn’t so much changing my mind as trying to focus it…

usually I have what feels like a billion thoughts swirling around, all of which are in conversation with each other trying to find connections, patterns, meaning… trying to figure things out and synchronising them with other things, puzzles, questions, and whatnot… or they’re arguing which sometimes is a conversation and sometimes it’s not.

The other day while ripping out the plasterboard of a stud wall in my new home…

I worried that this would make my partner anxious

I worried that it was a stupid thing for me to be doing

I worried that I was using my energy unwisely

I worried that I would regret this in the morning

I worried…

perhaps because I have Virgo rising and worrying is natural to the sign

…that I was enjoying doing it a little bit too much and I’d be unable to resist ripping off all the plasterboard from all the stud walls in the house…

I have Pluto in Virgo, Pluto loves to deconstruct…

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light at the end of the hallway

it was only a small stud wall, and I love the frame of it once the plasterboard which blocked the light was gone

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which is really less worrying than the walls which aren’t made of plasterboard and have a bit of a damp problem – which will soon be assessed by an expert.

Let’s hope this expert doesn’t fall under that transit I have going on in my chart which has been labeled – Beware of Experts – it’s a Neptune opposition Asc transit. Neptune transits are very slow… too slow… and they always seem to come with warnings… which make me worry about everything and everyone, especially myself – omg what am I going to bring down upon myself this time because of some illusion or delusion that captivated me!?!

I’m having enough issues with transiting Chiron opposing my Pluto and reminding me of the fact that I have this opposition natally…

While worrying about everything and everyone it suddenly struck me, during one of the many conversations I was having with myself while causing minor chaos in the house (I always chat with myself when I do physical work… I suppose I could listen to music instead but I always forget that music exists – don’t make me explain that quirk), that all this worry was mainly due to ego.

Ego can cause inner chaos which then leads to outer chaos… and it also tries to control the chaos, bring it to order, which generally tends to make things worse rather than better. Sometimes chaos sorts itself out if you’d just leave it alone to do so rather than interfere.

After a bit of a conversation about the conversation, I came to the conclusion that narcissists were what happens when all you do is live by ego.

Perhaps that’s the lesson narcissists teach – said I to myself and myself patted I on the back for saying such a thing (how narcissistic egotistic of me) – what happens when ego takes over and the rest of you gets no say in the matter of you.

Before I forget the transit of Chiron opposing Pluto title of my post… here’s an extract of Robert Hand’s take on it via NorthPoint Astrology:

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Chiron opposite Pluto: “Old psychological burdens”

Don’t become too worried by any profound changes which may turn your life upside-down, because they will give you the necessary strength and energy to finally get rid of some of your old psychological burdens. A friend, work colleague or close family member could have the necessary therapeutic capability to help, being able to put their finger on something that you find particularly painful to discuss. Rather than intending to hurt you, their behavior will simply reopen old wounds that you suffered in your childhood or adolescence.

The recognition that many of your problems with others are simply the result of your own tendency to cover up your weaknesses and avoid painful issues will help you gradually change your behavior. Try to overcome the compulsion to keep up appearances all the time, and admit that you also have your failings, weaknesses and inferiority complexes. You will then discover an inner strength that you thought would be lost by admitting this. Feeling powerless or having a vague sense of being controlled or manipulated will only take hold of you if you are unable to find the courage to confront your own inner demons.

Be quietly thankful to all those people and events that are now throwing your life into turmoil. They are only helping to stir up regions of your unconscious which you have been so adept at repressing, a repression which has been blocking any chances of healing. If you can accept your whole self, including those influences that are painful, you can help to pave the way for a more confident and calmer future.

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One of the things which keeps coming up in the conversations I’m having with me, myself, I and old Uncle Tom Cobley and all (also known as Widecombe Fair – it’s a song)… is the question of who will I be.

When you have Pluto natally in the 1st house – who will you be – is a common question you ask yourself along with – who am I, why am I, wtf am I, who will I become if I decide I am this or that or the other thing, etc.

Sometimes when you ask yourself these questions – depends on when you ask them, what mood you’re in, what’s going on in your life at the time, and other factors and data which influence the answer – you realise that who you are is so mutable that there really isn’t a fixed or cardinal you (this could just be a Pluto in Virgo thing).

You could actually be anyone if you wanted to, but there are consequences for each anyone you choose to be, and there is a basic you, a core self, a structure upon which all the other you’s are built – that core you, if it doesn’t like the you who you decide to be can at any moment rip the plasterboard off of the frame.

Try to build a fake you on top of a real you and that pretty surface is going to lead to something ugly… maybe.

But anyway that’s not where I was going with the question.

I’ve built some fake me’s over the real me in the past and hated that experience… even though some of the fake me’s handled being a part of society much better than the real me. I’m a bit fractious… fake me was more appeasing and tried to conform… real me finds conforming to be a bit like that dust which makes your skin itch until you scratch yourself raw and bleed to death from scratching that itch.

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blue lagoon warning sign

I found this pic while searching for an image (for a post I was going to write which I got bored of writing) to express what it’s like to dive into a relationship with a narcissist – they look like a beautiful blue lagoon on the surface… that beautiful blue lagoon effect is due to chemicals which will melt your skin and other symptoms.

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This question of who am I going to be was more about ‘old psychological burdens’.

This new home… it’s the first time in my life that I’ve owned a house. The gypsy has finally settled down and given herself earth in which to grow roots. I was always a reluctant gypsy who longed for a home of her own, but life… life is challenging and it sometimes tests us by not giving us what we want, giving us the exact opposite and seeing how we cope with it – or is it narcissists who do that?

This is a weird experience for me… and I have no idea what is going to happen or how it will affect me.

My question was really – Am I going to turn into my mother or my father about this. Of course I most probably will be a blend of both of them plus the additive known as me.

The additive known as me… according to my parents, especially my mother, was not dissimilar to that itchy dust stuff. If I believed them about who I am… which I did for a long while, and… it almost killed me (as in they almost managed to convince me to kill myself as somehow this might solve their problems. It wouldn’t have done that, but the ego gets twisted particularly when its views are informed by the twisted ego’s of others).

The only experience previous to this which I have of owning a home was of the home my parents owned which in theory was mine too… but in practice I was a guest who was allocated a bed in my mother’s clothing cupboard – that was my childhood room in my childhood home which was only a temporary childhood home because my mother couldn’t stand living there and used me to live elsewhere – the elsewhere fluctuated – for as long as she could (school timetable) before she had to return to it. My father effing loved it and filled it with his mistresses, one of which would later become his long-term companion (perhaps he chose her because my mother didn’t scare her away – she was a lot like my mother. Seems as though my father had a type).

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reasons children cry

my father liked women who were impossibly demanding…

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So…

will I become a nit-picking virago like my mother, who hates her home because it’s not perfect, who makes her own life a misery because of her hate of imperfection, and passes that misery on to anyone else who happens to be in the vicinity… and she can’t abide anyone enjoying what she hates, and a million other horrible itchy and scratchy things…

Or…

will I become like my father who loved living in a place as it was because he chose due to it being that way and… perhaps it was his real mistress. Houses can be that for us… anything can be that for us if it’s a muse who sings our secret song, or something like that.

I (when I was about 15) threw my dad out of his house on behalf of my mother (thanks to a loophole he created because he was… sometimes an idiot like I can be). That was a proud moment of utter stupidity and narcissist related twisted ego screw-ups you think aren’t screw-ups.

There are some things I wish I could forget… I’m glad I can’t forget them.

I’ll never forgive myself for that… I’m glad I can’t.

Some old wounds are more useful as wounds… what matters is not the wound being there but how we handle it being there, what it inspires rather than what has expired.

Like the old walls in this house which have a damp problem… part of the problem is someone (previous owners, not just the most recent one but all those who came before) tried to heal them by covering them over, with plaster, with plasterboard, with paint, with anything goes but nothing really does the trick… to make them look healed and seem healed – forget about it, it all looks okay. But it isn’t underneath it all.

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the maiden dragon voyage

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I doubt if I’ll fare any better than those who came before me…

I doubt if I’ll fix what ails this old house…

not for want of trying

I’ll just make an attempt at it as they did, and perhaps my ego will think I’m doing a better job than they did… as they probably thought too.

Maybe that’s the lesson…

we’re not any better, we think we are – and that makes us arrogant, our ego inflates and gets on a pedestal to preach… until the structure we’re standing on crumbles but we remain in denial because we’ve said so much and we really don’t want to admit that what we thought was a cure is just another ‘fix’ which isn’t really a fix…

or maybe I will be able to cure what no one else before me has done – but what is the price to pay for doing that and can I afford it? If I can’t, what will I do?

Who will I become…

the wheel of fortune turns,

as it turns… all sorts of things are imagined…

by the ego…

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24 thoughts on “Chiron opposition Pluto – When Old Wounds Resurface

  1. Hi, I have Chiron conjunct Venus on my ascendant opposing Uranus in the 7th house. Currently surviving a Chiron opp. Pluto until 2019. You wanna talk turmoil??? It’s been rather insane to say the least. My son whom was my heart and soul decided to abandon our relationship. Others have too, fallen away that meant a lot to me. Some at my hand some at theirs. My 2nd son whom I did not raise came to know me and was what I thought was a answered prayer…turned out to be a psycho path who enjoys manipulating others. Big disappointments to say the least have followed me more so during this transit. Still I rise…. I found myself the other say thinking about a promise I made to God and my (good) son when he was 3… I promised God I would always be faithful as long as his heart would grow kind and strong. In remembering that day when he was small I caught myself saying out loud, telling God that he broke his promise to me and I will break every single one I ever made to him. Actually, I don’t even know if I believe in God… I mean I want to but… there is just so much that seems so fairytale in this transit. Guess you know I placed a lot of faith in religion, God… the good. Guess when you have a chiron conjunct venus at your ascendant at such a young age, you look for anything that will ease and make the pain a little better. My vice was God. My relationship was everything… now there is silence. I have a jupiter conjunct neptune in the 8th house which makes me want to believe, but I’m being stubborn I suppose. I know one day my son will come back but a deeper darker part knows it will be too late. The damage is done. That part of me (pluto) doesn’t want to forgive and has made my peace with never seeing him again in this life. It’s deep, it’s dark and it’s full of pain, rage….
    Maybe some others have kept their optimism in check with this transit. yet, this is as dark as you go into the abyss. I know to be patient. I know to keep busy, to do things I love… but there is a shadow thats present always pulling me to the dark. My dark night of the soul…. This is a “real” chiron opposition Pluto!!!!! Will I rise from the ashes? I think only if I choose too. We will see…. come on 2019!!!

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    1. Thank you for sharing πŸ™‚

      If there’s one thing I’ve learned from having natal Pluto opposition Chiron across the 1st/7th axis, it’s that being reduced to ashes and then rising from your own ashes is a regular part of the process.

      There are ways to make the experience less traumatic.

      This is a good article about working with a Pluto/Chiron transit – http://www.astrodynamics.net/astrology-in-my-world-pluto-transit-to-chiron/

      an excerpt from that article:

      “Pluto transits are nearly always intense. Pluto’s job is to strip away any veneer of BS and reveal the ultimate Truth that lies at the core of our lives, and this is not always a comfortable process. When Pluto in the sky makes angles to the planets in our chart we are forced to face patterns of behavior that don’t serve us – we are often confronted with issues from our past that need to be released.”

      With Pluto you have to stop fearing your own shadow/darkness and do what Carl Jung advised about getting to know your own darkness (by understanding your own darkness you become better able to understand the darkness of others)

      This is a wonderful article about Carl Jung’s view on the shadow (including the dark night of the soul) – https://academyofideas.com/2015/12/carl-jung-and-the-shadow-the-hidden-power-of-our-dark-side/

      an excerpt from the article:

      “What is especially interesting is the idea that the shadow contains not just destructive and evil aspects of the personality, but also potent, creative, and powerful capabilities. Certain personality traits that would be beneficial and lead to greater wholeness and harmony, are frowned upon by one’s family, peers, and society out of envy, ignorance, or self-contempt.”

      The more you get to know Pluto, the less scary he becomes, he’s not always the villain sometimes he’s the hero, he’s not the enemy but a powerful ally – but you do have to own your Pluto and if you’re not comfortable with the dark side of being human this will be an uncomfortable experience. Owning your Pluto includes repatriating the parts of yourself you’ve exiled, dissociated, transferred and projected onto others. If your Pluto transit involves relationship difficulties of the ‘dark’ kind, you are being challenged to see what part you are playing in the darkness.

      Pluto transits (or transits to Pluto) often require that you lose your identity for awhile, shed an old skin which no longer fits, restricts, so that you can find yourself, discover the new skin which was beneath the old. The transformations which come with Pluto tend to start with something being destroyed so that something new can be created.

      With Chiron you have to own your wound, rip off the bandaid, and dive into the pain, the fear, the insecurities, anxieties, to find the healing. The healing power of Chiron comes from inside of the wound itself. What hurts is what heals, by feeling it you release it.

      A Chiron transit often rips the bandaid off for us, forces us to face our wound, we hurt ourselves, others around us hurt us (sometimes because they feel hurt by us and they want us to feel their pain), we become the walking wounded and everything hurts…

      an excerpt from this article – http://ericfrancis.com/issues/0309/chiron.html

      “Many have noticed that Chiron appears prominently in our charts at the time of incidents that seem to hurt us, and some astrologers take their investigation no further. Chiron’s most effective process often involves the many kinds of growth and healing that come as a result of having experienced an injury, sickness, change or loss. Chiron frequently bestows the gift of increased awareness that the process of becoming healthy offers or demands.

      You could say, from Chiron’s perspective, that all healing directly involves raising awareness. In my view, these are the two most important keywords for Chiron. My sense is that Chiron functions more or less neutrally β€” rather than being ‘positive’ or ‘negative’ β€” and presents opportunities to become curious, conscious and aware. Al Morrison called Chiron the inconvenient benefic.”

      When Chiron and Pluto are working together – you have to learn how to own your own story, which can be intense and painful to do, but it is worth it even if while it is happening it is a journey into the underworld, a fall into the wounded abyss of the earth.

      Check the specifics of your chart for what else is involved in the transit (what aspects the natal position which is being opposed makes to other planets, and if there are any other transits affecting it – this year Chiron transits come with a Saturn in Sag square, the wound makes a hard connection to our belief systems), and where it will be most active (the houses the transit affects directly and by opposition).

      Best wishes! Take good care of yourself!

      Liked by 1 person

  2. sooo. Posted on my Solar Return. My Chiron is in opposition to Pluto, my Pluto in the First house. Hello Sister! A cool insight, i recently had, whilst pondering the clusterfuck that was my marriage to a narcissist, and what draws empathic folks to narcissists. Essentially, when someone who’s waters run deep, enters into relationship with someone who does not have the capacity to hold our deep waters, due to their shallow nature. Our own deep waters are returned to us ( they sort of bounce of the shallow) and we think ” wow! they’re soooo much like me!” and we give them credit for our own depth. So i’ve learned to pay close attention to behaviors. When their behaviors are incongruent with the energy I am ascribing to them, it creates a dissonance. Once that particular tone or quality of disharmony is learned, It becomes an amazing tool! eg ” you look deep but you feel shallow AF, I better pay attention. Thanks for the great article!

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    1. Thank you for sharing πŸ™‚

      That’s a great insight about giving people credit for what’s actually yours. I love the way you described it! Your Chiron and Pluto are working well together, it isn’t easy to get them to do that.

      I’ve been thinking about something similar recently while reviewing some of my old ‘wounds’, trying to see them from alternative angles.

      There’s a lot which can be learned from a relationship with a narcissist, just as we are mirrors for them, they are mirrors for us, and for those of us with Chiron opp. Pluto, with Pluto in the 1st, taking a long hard look at what narcissists are reflecting to us about ourselves is healing. Owning our part in the relationship returns our power to us, and Pluto’s lessons tend to come with experiences of misused and misplaced power – when Pluto is in the 1st, these power lessons tend to happen in intimate relationships, often with a loss of personal power to someone else who them abuses us with the power we’ve given them over us, leading the Pluto in the 1st person on a personal quest to find the ‘real’ source of power, to turn the tables and restore personal power, by entering into the inner labyrinth and relying on instinct to find the path through it.

      The wounds (Chiron) transform (Pluto) the self (1st house), so digging deep into where we are hurt is necessary to reveal the healing side of the dynamic.

      You’re absolutely right about the amazing tools which we can find by being willing to investigate dissonance, disharmony, and the narc clusterfuck.

      You might enjoy this article – https://www.loveyourdesign.com/discover-vitality-becoming-full-moon-april-2017/ – it’s by an astrologer who does a different and intriguing kind of astrology.

      This is also a good article, written by two wonderful astrologers – http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_dgsevhouse_e.htm – about the 7th house and what relationships reveal to us about ourselves.

      Love what you’re doing with your Pluto/Chiron!

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      1. Thank you for your generous reply :0) .
        I completely agree, and recognize how fully I participated and just really, rolled around in the drama of it all. It gave me enormous insight about other co-dependent relationships i’ve been in. I am just beginning, what I know will be a life-long study of Astrology. I haven’t even earned Newb status lol. I’m soo excited, that i’ve been going at it like an over eager freshman, and my is saying ” wtaf?” at the moment. It feels like the top of my head has been opened and i’m just being flooded with insights. Thanks again for the reply, and the recommended links. I’ll check them out. Glad I found you! Peace ❀

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      2. ok what??? So you suggest 2 links, one to an article talking about Eris, whom I just felt drawn to, yesterday!! and an article by Dana Gerhardt and April Elliot Kent, and I’m now on my way to the library to pick up the book that I put on hold last week and just arrived. ” The Essential Guide to Practical Astrology” written by none other than April Elliot Kent! lol sooo much fun! Thanks again! xoxoxo

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  3. I think when we feel stretched or stressed we revert to old patterns of thinking very quickly. Like you owning a home, which has made you reflect on the past and how your parents handled this owning a house thing & all the scenarios that played out in your their home etc. It does open old wounds- as you recall being 15 and kicking your dad out of the house. That does not sound odd at all- considering you were raised by Narcissists-sounds rather appropriate since you were allotted the role of doing the “dirty work” for both of them- that pisses me off. An other pet peeve of mine- giving kids the dirty work that the parents should own. Anyways- I am full of pet peeves these days, ha ha. So now it’s your turn- you own a house- it’s yours and you can do whatever you want with it. You don’t have restrictions from a landlord on what you can and cannot do- it’s up to you. It is scary making decisions when you got burned when ever taking a stand on something and making it your own. But you have proven that you can do it through your post parent life. And I love how you are embracing more the aspects of yourself that remind you of your parents. Exposing that is so good and writing it out or talking about it diffuses it. We all have traits we wish we didn’t- but to be aware of them is the secret formula that a narcissist doesn’t have access too…but we do. This of course creates self doubt but it also empowers and propels us forward. You are hard on yourself- you know this. Stop it. It’s OK to get really angry and pissed, and to feel that. I think this owning a home will be a catalyst for you as you alluded to above. I know you’re ready-bring it own…and try your best not to overthink it- your natural intuition is right on-let that led you.

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    1. Thank you πŸ™‚

      Yes, I was definitely doing my mother’s dirty work. That was in some ways my reason for existing. She needed to be the ‘good’ one but that kind of ‘good’ person has a bad side which they need others to express for them so they won’t sully their ‘good’ persona. It can be confusing to be involved in that kind of dynamic because there is so much going on, so much pressure from many sides, and you forget yourself under the weight of it. You get caught up in one side of it, the one which causes most stress and pain, and you focus on relieving that pressure.

      By the time I reached the point of doing that I’d had enough of listening to my mother go on and on and on ad nauseum, ad infinitum, about my father and all the wrong which he had done to her – she was being the damsel in distress to the hilt. The sort of damsel in distress who demands of others that they be a knight in shining armour.

      I wasn’t really being a knight in shining armour, I was just fed up of the stalemate which had been going on since forever. I was fed up of listening to my mother bitch and whine and moan and cry ‘victim’. She never shut up about it. In some ways I was not so much trying to stop my father from doing his thing (frankly if I had been married to my mother…), I was trying to shut my mother up – at the time I didn’t accept that this was an impossible task, that nothing would ever shut her up. If it wasn’t one thing then it was another. They taker your solutions to their problems and turn them into problems, find another problem… there is no solution just more problems.

      I remember that moment and why I did what I did. Frankly I was terrified but so angry that fear wasn’t an option. I was grateful to my father for accepting it the way that he did because he could have put up a fight and he didn’t. He sucked as a father, he didn’t want that role, and he could be very cruel, but in that moment he showed a certain gentleness. He was shocked and he had reason to be – he lived int hat house, that house was his real baby. My mother hated that house, he loved it – which is why she didn’t want him to have it or be happy in it. He had moved his mistress into it – but tbh that mistress was more of a ‘wife’ to him than my mother was, she was there for him through thick and thin, when he had his strokes, when he was at his worst. Compared to her my mother was a lightweight in the relationship with my father Olympics.

      We live and hopefully live long enough to learn… if we’re willing to learn.

      Pet peeves are a part of being human, sometimes they’re the very things which connect us with others. Usually pet peeves are logical and if explored lead to understanding of some sort of something which is often bigger than the individual.

      Sometimes they’re just really nice pets to have and stroking them makes us feel a little less crazy in this crazy world πŸ˜‰

      I have loads of pet peeves… they’re like chia pets or tamagotchi. Sometimes I let one die because it’s time for it to move on to that pet peeve heaven.

      not all of our pet peeves are ours… they’re easily adopted from others.

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      1. Interesting and I paused for a second when you wrote about your Mom needing to be the ‘good’ one and you were to do the dirty work and be the ‘bad one.’ I totally felt that dynamic with my friend. I am straight up with people and she presented as the passive meek one but under that was anything but passive- it was aggressive and attacking but most people don’t see that part of her persona. The pressure you mention is also so interesting. Constant pressure and with time if you are involved with them long enough-you just give up or cave in. “Do as your told”- becomes your motto since it becomes worthless to fight it like you said. But then you have an epiphany and you realize its an impossible task…forever. I can see why suicide, addictions & other coping strategies become options to relieve the pressure. Totally makes perfect sense.

        My ex friend’s husband is her worn out & tattered knight in shining armor until the next one comes along. That’s why he liked me so much- I took on that role for him for awhile and the pressure was lifted. I don’t blame him for not warning me and encouraging are so called friendship. He’s trying to survive. We all become very ego centered when our survival is threatened.

        Pet peeves- kind of funny aren’t they and they do change with the seasons. Imagining a pet peeve heaven is funny πŸ™‚

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        1. It’s always interesting when our experiences of narcissists overlap. When we find that others have had a similar interaction, dynamic and personal story with a different narcissist from ours. It’s also rather intriguing when you meet with someone who has had a relationship with the same narcissist as you.

          I remember discussing your friend’s husband with you. Your interactions with him were very insightful. He’s definitely suffering from narcissist fatigue. I recall mentioning that when my mother’s attention was captured by someone new I would breathe a sigh of relief as it meant I could have a small holiday from her and her nonsense. Mind you, you could set a timer for how long her new infatuation with someone else would last and when she would return with a vengeance and then I’d have to listen to her grievances about how the new relationship didn’t live up to her expectations for it.

          In the beginning this new person in her life and on her radar would be portrayed as a saviour (as per her damsel in distress routine). This new person was perfect, wonderful, intelligent, caring, basically an ideal dream come true. Tick tock tick tock… and in a short space of time the cracks would appear in the foundations of a hastily founded friendship. The bitching would begin. The person wasn’t as perfect, wonderful, intelligent or caring as the ideal dream dictated they should be for my mother. The saviour wasn’t saving the damsel in distress as well as the damsel wanted them to. They were supposed to do such and such and instead they did this and that – that’s not on. Tick tock tick tock… a little bit more time passes and soon those cracks are causing the foundations to crumble and tumble down. The narcissists ivory tower was made of plastic which melted in the sun. And suddenly the savior is no longer a hero but a villain, the knight’s shining armour rusted and revealed another dragon underneath for the damsel to be in distress about. Tick tock tick tock… while I listened to her bemoaning the great disappointment she has suffered once again, poor her, because someone did not live up to her high standards, and while she bitches relentlessly about how horrible the saviour turned out to be, listing all their faults and flaws, the list growing longer by the minute… I know this scenario is going to play out again. Part of me dreads it because the fallout requires my participation in picking up the pieces of someone else’s mess (hers and often also that of the other person who may have been infatuated with my narcissist mother for awhile and now they’re reeling from the end of infatuation), there’s a part of me which looks forward to the break which I get when she’s off chasing unicorns and thinks she’s found one.

          As for him not warning you – I used to try doing that but no one listens because they’re the exception and you’re mean and wrong for saying such things about someone they think is great during the honeymoon phase.

          It’s a very messy mess.

          It’s interesting to get a bird’s eye view of it.

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          1. Thank you and that’s exactly what was happening but also during the time she was discarding me, her husband was having an epiphany- he was seeing it more clearly too and was telling her how unhappy he was-divorce was mentioned etc. Then she went f’n ape shit. He was confronting her. And I was too- from the outside. We both were unhappy. Man- you get these people unhappy and confront them and it’s the biggest most crazy thing ever, as the laid back hippy turns into a demented controlling witch.
            I talked to him a year ago. It was impromptu and I regretted it at first but later realized I had to do it. I’ll never forget how he had a list of things he said to me that basically was a recall of what she says to him- if you know what I mean. It was verbatim as it was pity me story BS. My goal was to keep the focus off of her. He asked me what happened. I deflected it back to him and he told me what he thought. He trusts no one but I know he kind of trusts me. Anyways I told him no more poor her and that she deserves consequences, I told him I respected him no matter what, I told him he has good intuition (which he does), I told him that he is good, I told him their is nothing wrong with him, I told him I understand how he is used to it all, I told him I loved him and his kids and to protect his heart. I will never forget how he responded to me telling him that he is good. He told me some things about himself that he feels bad about. I told him we all have stuff but he’s a good person and that I loved him. I am no savior and I don’t believe love heals it all- I am loving though and I meant everything I said. He is not disordered I know that and he didn’t deserved to be punished for her BS. My talking to him probably didn’t do much but maybe it shone some light where light was not present. He knows I know she is a fraud- I never spoke of NPD or diagnosis etc- he has a computer and access to everything I do. It’s not my place. I know he knows my husband and I have his back- because we all know how lonely it feels being involved with someone like her. I will always stay away but when I see him, he knows I have his back. That has helped me heal knowing that.

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            1. At the end of the day what our experiences give to us is all we have control over – what happens with, for, others is theirs to deal with. Maybe our experience helps them. You never know πŸ™‚

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              1. Thank you ❀ You never do know…one thing I learned from being involved with a disordered person is that being true to myself and my self expression for others will not be silenced, ever. Whether it makes a difference or not, I'll never know but I know that telling someone that you love and care for them has never hurt the receiver- only the giver of those words takes the risk. I know the risk, as I have been burned but I will not let it dictate my future. I don't know much but I know that.

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  4. Doubting about ourselves is the legacy of our dear N parents-questioning, inquiring, having troubles in formulating a judgment, to know if we are really right ( easier for us to say we are wrong)..But after all the work you have done on yourself you are very well aware of the traps of the N mechanism.I think we all have N wounds but i am sure it’s difficult to become, to transform into the same substance of our parents, even if we have our genes and they carved out their image on us, or at least they have tried.
    I feel I have been mutilated of my self esteem but at times there are spontaneous reactions telling me i still am my own person; maybe flawed, but not as them, differently.
    You are your own person too but we swim in too deep waters at times, it’s not a lighthearted journey. And how you relate to others shows clearly you have Nothing to share with your parents’ behaviour.

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    1. Thank you πŸ™‚

      I’m beginning to think that things like self-doubt are the whisperings of ego. Certain aspects of self-doubt are useful, they keep us flexible, make us move beyond ourselves by questioning us, however other aspects of it are stuck in reverse-conceit – at least they are with me. The way to tell the difference between useful self-doubt and the other kind is perhaps in how it makes us feel and what we do with the feeling once we’re feeling it.

      People often get annoyed with me when I put myself down. I can see why they get annoyed because I find it annoying when people put themselves down. But I still do it because I take a certain pride in doing it which is basically ego thinking it is not being egotistical. There’s a stroking which goes on with self-criticism which isn’t that different from the stroking which goes on with self-aggrandisement.

      I was contemplating the whole narcissistic wound concept and what it means to those who have a relationship with a narcissist. How stuck we get in what narcissists do to us because they pass onto to us their pain, anxiety, fear, anger, powerlessness, etc. But are they really passing it onto to us or are they triggering what is already within us which needs to be experienced and explored for us to crack that egg and give birth to ourselves.

      It hurts, but what is the purpose of hurt? Is the damage that narcissists do to us perhaps not what we think it is, is it perhaps not damage at all but the proverbial crack which lets the light in and allows us to see where we’re going, where we need to go to get out. Being around them makes us not want to be like them… maybe that’s why we need to experience them.

      I might change my mind about all of this, but for now it’s provoking some intriguing thought quakes that are shaking up my old ways of being, doing and perceiving.

      Maybe everything is about finding our own person and letting that out in whatever form it takes.

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  5. I think we all wear different masks. Each relationship is unique. Only those closest to us get to see our true cores selves. I believe this is much better than having no core self whatsoever and having to constantly seek and wear a mask like a narcissist does.

    The sign and description posted is a perfect description of a narcissist and relationship with them.

    But how about a third option? You’re ever-changing and evolving. You’re like a great and incredible work of art. You have a canvass (soul), so the Masterpiece is up to you to create.

    You’re a creator and artist, so you’re putting this into your home as well. Have fun with it! πŸ™‚

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    1. Thank you πŸ™‚

      One of the things I like to do is to look at all the ways I am narcissistic and could become a narcissist, it helps me to understand narcissists and also helps me to know myself better. A narcissist is basically us only the balloon has slipped away from the person holding it – the person holding it is the core self.

      I like your idea of the third option. I agree we are all ever-changing and evolving – the ego is a part of that, and our experiences with narcissists are also a part of that, everything is a part of that.

      What is the reason for the evolving? I have no idea, perhaps that’s just what this planet does and those on this planet do it because they are a part of it.

      I’m definitely looking at this house as a creative expression of everyone who has ever owned it and lived here. Now it’s my turn to see what I paint on this canvas, adding to a mural of many lives and stories πŸ™‚

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  6. Robert Hand’s comments seem particularly apropos. Covering up weaknesses and avoiding painful issues – yup. I suppose all of us do that to some extent. No one wants to be in pain and we all want to be seen as strong. Most of us, anyway. If you can’t be strong, fake it! if it’s painful, avoid it! Human nature is such that we’re often looking for some sort of quick fix. Shiny quick fix baubles! We’re like crows. πŸ˜‰

    I went over this ground quite a bit with my counsellor after my split from the narcissist. His approach for the most part was to have his clients work on their egos. What a tough road – very hard, ongoing-for-the-rest-of-your-life work. So I think I understand what you’re saying (was that egoistic of me to pat myself on the back for “understanding” you? I don’t know.).

    I don’t think that you will turn into your mother or father. I think that the “you” part is pretty dominant, pretty aware (pretty fantastic, in my little opinion). But (and here I go again) I think I understand why you would be concerned. Narcissistic plantings run deep, and of course, we are all susceptible to them just on our own, without any help from anywhere.

    Good post, as you so often do. πŸ™‚

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    1. Thank you πŸ™‚

      The conversation I was having with myself about ego started a few days ago when I got fed up with myself for doing things my usual way and worrying too much about everything and it suddenly struck me that doing things my usual way (and wanting not to do things my usual way) and the worrying was mostly ego. Not the obvious expression of it, not the open arrogance, but a more subtle version which sometimes comes across as not being ego related, like humility, timidity. I’ve been observing myself closely over the last few days and have spotted all these things which are driven by anxiety that I used to think was due to growing up with my narc parents who made me anxious about everything – they did do that but why did they do that… because of their egos and what their egos were whispering to them.

      There was one thing in particular – the ambition to do things properly, the fear of not doing things properly, the annoyance at not being able to do things properly and the pissiness when others haven’t done things properly but are either pretending they have or they genuinely believe that they have, and they insist they have but they haven’t, leaving me to deal with the consequences of that (the whole of which is a complex knot in my psyche due to lots of things, people, experiences, etc), which I focused upon and as I looked at it I saw that the anxiety this thing caused and the thing itself was ego. Ego worries a lot about everything and has this idea of what the proper way to be and do is.

      Then it occurred to me a bit like the view you get from climbing a mountain, a panorama stretching out in all directions, that ego was woven into everything – that includes the ego’s wish to be without ego.

      Ego is necessary to human beings, it’s part of our natural make up – the things which make us. Ego has an essential purpose. But its natural form is fluid and fluid has a tendency to spread into everything and cause rising or penetrating damp which may become worse when covered over to hide the mess (that last bit comes from something the previous owner of this house said about why they covered over a wall which actually would have benefited from being left uncovered and which due to being covered over is now in dire need of fixing, and the wall made that point by seeping through the covering and ruining it).

      Part of the reason I started having this discussion with myself was because I was getting so angry about what the previous owner had done, and I caught myself ‘being my mother’ about it. I don’t think I’ll turn into either my mother or my father, but I do think echoes of them are within me and ego wanted me to eradicate those echoes – a lot of what I’ve done in life was inspired by that. I don’t think that’s the way, that way was a needed path to take but now it’s time to do something different. I need to allow myself to be like my mother and father, rather than fear that, and understand what that behaviour is really all about – sort of like exorcising a ghost which has haunted this family for generations by letting the ghost tell its story.

      Something like that.

      As I was writing this reply your scenario with your contract popped into my mind – the rigmarole they’re putting you through making you wait for news of a renewal or not, it’s a typically ego driven game they’re playing. Why can’t people cut to the chase? Because ego is anxious about doing that.

      There’s this whole interplay between our ego and the ego of others = our anxieties and the anxieties of others.

      I could go on and on about this because I’m enjoying this conversation, something about it is liberating, fresh, new (old but new)…

      I think we should feel free to pat ourselves on the back… it makes us more generous about patting others on the back too πŸ™‚

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      1. It’s taken a while for me to get back to you – life has been busy, and I like to think about our exchanges (and those you have with others). I am a muller, a characteristic that really irritated my mother and my ex-narcissist. They were always trying to push me, to hurry me into making decisions, and they refused to see as a possibility that others may not be like them.

        Yes. My mother was also anxious about the “proper” way to do things. (And she literally used that word, too.) Always, always, worried about the perceptions of others. I also became concerned about it right up to the point where I realized that I didn’t care and that I was just putting in time for something that bothered me because it bothered her. And if something bothered her, she was going to bother me. Somewhere along the line I started to ask why I should worry. But I just did what I did, and didn’t examine it too closely. That mulling thing again; I had started on my liferoad and got busy and left behind the mulling that needed to be mulled.

        I like how you said that the damp in the wall was going to come through, no matter what attempts were made to “cover the mess.” And it’s interesting how you caught yourself “being your mother” in response. Like you, I’ve recently found myself accepting my mother (and my father, too. I got angry at him for not mitigating her more than he did, but I think he became tired and just gave up). It’s relieving, I’ve found.

        And my contract … they have still not gotten back to me. Apparently, this is something they do a lot and I’ve been told it’s rather normal. Very irritating, because I think I have this job and want to stay, and yet I can’t count on that and am applying for others. Yuck.

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        1. It’s always lovely to hear from you. I love chatting with you πŸ™‚ but if I don’t hear from you, don’t worry about it (unless you want to).

          If someone doesn’t reply to me or contact me I apply logic and tend to assume they’re living their life.

          If you’re a muller it always rubs narcissists the wrong way mainly because their version of mulling is brooding over wrongs which have been done to them, working themselves up into a painful paranoid fury, and they tend to think some pretty shitty things about people so they assume that when people are silent, thinking, mulling, they’re thinking shitty things about the narcissist – hence their need to invade your thoughts and order you to not think.

          Sometimes it is better not to think about things and sometimes it is better to think things through – figuring out which is which is a tricky formula.

          Knowing the systems others are using to guide their actions and words can be helpful, but sometimes it is so frustrating when it’s not a system which works for you. There are times when you come across a ritual in the business or social sphere which just seems so ludicrous, such a waste of energy and time… but this is what they do here and if you want to be here this is what you have to accept. Try to change it and it scares the bejesus out of them – you become a persona non grata. Modern human civilisation if fraught with bizarre rituals which complicate everything but in theory those rituals make everyone feel safer. *shrugs and sighs πŸ˜‰

          Take good care of yourself ❀

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          1. Thank you. πŸ™‚ Not worried, really, just a little frustrated at not having the time to do some of the things I enjoy, such as chatting with you. πŸ™‚

            “Brooding over wrongs that have been done to them … ” That’s exactly what I’ve observed, too. And then a “paranoid fury.” So very true! And in my experience, they then jump all over you, absolutely seething, rage pouring out of every orifice. They can be really scary and can tip over into violence.

            Yes, figuring out what things to think about is tricky. Sometimes I need to think about whether I should be thinking about whatever it is. In my case, stopping to think is usually the better course.

            I love your description of modern human civilisation as “full of bizarre rituals.” A lot of the time, we’re just doing stuff because we’re “supposed” to or because it’s “proper.” πŸ˜‰

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            1. Thank you πŸ™‚

              That’s how I feel about most things which are considered ‘normal’ by society, they’re ‘bizarre rituals’ which baffle me and make me seem all sorts of awkward when I try to replicate them in an effort to do what is expected and normal.

              According to the internet there are a lot of people who think and feel this way… so why are we still calling what many of us think and feel isn’t normal – normal. Why are we still doing these rituals if most of us don’t want to do them? Hmmmm….

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