Who’s More Dangerous?

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Alice Miller’s work is a must read for anyone interested in child psychology, their child’s or their own inner child’s psychology, and how parenting affects the child, or how your parenting reflects your own childhood, and many variations on that theme. Her book – The Drama of the Gifted Child – is excellent and is written for everyone to read (in other words you don’t have to have a degree in psychology to understand it because she wasn’t trying to impress her peers, she was sharing her knowledge and experience with anyone who wants it).

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The other day I received a comment on one of my Narcissism posts – How To Get a Narcissist To Love You – which I didn’t approve, not because of the content of the comment but because the person who commented hit ‘Reply’ to post their comment instead of creating a new comment, which would have been fine if the ‘Reply’ was to one of my comments but it was instead to someone else’s comment and this means that the other person would have received notification of this reply to their post and… I didn’t think they needed to hear this.

Maybe I was wrong.

Maybe they did need to hear it.

But sometimes we make decisions… about matters which affect other people without consulting those other people first. You kind of have to do that on a blog where comments are concerned.

And sometimes the reason we’re making that decision is because we’re trying to control how a person is affected.

In this particular case I felt that this comment would confuse the person to whom it was ‘Replying’. They had enough on their life plate already with all the confusing conundrums which ‘being in love’ tends to stir up. Being in love is complicated enough without adding the ‘am I in love with a narcissist’ issue to it.

This someone was struggling with confusion – they were trying to figure out if someone they loved was a narcissist or not – actually they came to me having already decided that the person they loved was a narcissist and wanted to know how to deal with that. I’m the one who questioned their diagnosis of their loved one being a narcissist mainly due to what they had shared which didn’t sound like their loved one was a narcissist (had NPD) or that they were on the receiving end of narcissistic abuse. They didn’t have the typical signs of Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome. People do seem to jump in too quickly with the – he or she is a narcissist! – diagnosis and accusation these days. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong… but it doesn’t mean it’s right either.

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If you think or know that you are the victim of a narcissist this article is a must read – Narcissistic Victim Syndrome: What the heck is that? – the excerpt above is a small section of it.

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Perhaps this comment would have helped them but I decided that it wouldn’t.

Why?

Before I answer that I’m going to share the entire comment here in this post. I always feel a bit wrong about not approving comments (which is probably why I often do a post afterwards including the disapproved comment) because the internet is in part about sharing our views, opinions, rants, etc, whether we like them, agree with them, etc… you know what I mean… and it always feels wrong to silence someone (unless it’s my mother… yup, there’s always an exception.

Throughout my lifetime of knowing her and being exposed to her she suffered from an extreme case of verbal diarrhea. I think talking incessantly was more important than breathing to her – she trained as an opera singer so she could regulate her breath and say more without needing to interrupt herself to breathe, and she knew how to make her voice carry far and pierce even the most hearing-resistant ears.

I have a lot of quirky phobias which other people find strange due to having my ears and brain exposed to her voice and what she used that voice to say. People still don’t get why I hate using the telephone… because of the way she used it and I never want to be trapped that way forced to listen to someone’s voice drone on on the other end of the line ever again. I couldn’t hang up… I did fall asleep once and she never let me hear the end of that insult! Apparently just being released from hospital after emergency surgery isn’t an excuse for falling asleep while a narcissist is talking. I should probably confess to the fact that I laughed about this incident – that didn’t help sweeten a pissed of narcissist – but I don’t regret enjoying the sharply sweet twisted humour of it.

For large periods of time her incessant talk revolved around my father, mostly listing everything that was wrong with him, everything that was wrong with me because I was his child, what he had done to poor her, how ungrateful he was for all the things she had done for him, all the sacrifices she had made…

she’s a covert narcissist of the damsel in permanent distress/martyr for life aiming for sainthood variety.

Don’t feel sorry for my father for being married to her – they were a match made in narcissist heaven, which is similar to narc hell.

He was a cerebral overt narcissist of the smartest person in the room – with the room being the planet – fuck everyone over, especially my family because I love them so much, as they’re all a bunch of easily manipulated, needy greedy emotional a-holes, variety. Being an overt narcissist of the cerebral kind meant he regularly would tell everyone what he thought of them, give you a dose of the awful truth – something he shared in common with my mother, and that he was going to use them and they were going to bend over, take it and beg for more. You’d be surprised how many people thought he was being charming when he said this sort of thing, and did indeed bend over, take it and beg for more… unless you’ve had dealings with a narcissist like this, like Trump – the ways he reminds me of daddy dearest are uncanny, even the squeezed facial features expression, then it wouldn’t surprise you at all).

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Excerpt from one of the most comprehensive articles about Narcissism online – Narcissism by Richard Boyd – a must read if you’re reading up on the subject.

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Sorry about the long preamble… here’s the comment in its entirety:

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“No Love or Empathy for the Narcissist

I find it so odd how positive everyone claims to be about what Narcs are capable and incapable of, namely ‘Love & Empathy’ without ever referring to case study or spectrum or really anything but what is most commonly mistaken for anti-social personality disorder. There are more Narcissists, pathological, than anyone cares to acknowledge, accept or even consider in positions revered by millions.

A complimentary, non-competing Narcissist is capable of exactly everything you’ve refuted with their Narcissist counterpart. More than likely one of the couple is undetected as a Narcissist. Covert or inverted and opposing their partner’s Somatic or Cerebral. As comparable as a baby or child expressing love for the mother they are dependent on for sustenance. The Narcissist is so capable of doting on their source of sustenance.

I am fairly confidant that more Narcissists, the article audience, write in and reply to these Narcissist articles than what are deemed”healthy” people.

Can’t love. No empathy. Who are we talking about? Gary Ridgeway the Green River Killer and BTK, had families, loved ones, deacons of their churches. People want to believe they are soulless? Might be more comfortable. But both defended their families and ‘loved’ ones fiercely, good providers, nurturers and gentle even reported by many. Both over 20+ years of marriage. Please … how are we defining ‘love’? Only 20% at most of the population, is capable of truly selfless acts. The top 1-2% encompassing your Mother Theresa and Ghandi like souls.

I think the field and approach to personality disorders is heading into a major shift and all of these absolute statements will have no place because it is more than likely excluding the most dangerous of the type. Your religious leaders, your Drs, your ‘good-will’ ambassadors, obviously politicians, judicial officials, Poice and emergency rescue workers. Their motivating behaviors, which helped them succeed and excel, are never mentioned. Just the acts of philanderers and egomaniacal men that sound more like mid-life crises, are mentioned. It’s very skewed which suggests bias.

I’ve worked in acute Psychiatric care more than 1/2 my life and have been exposed heavily to the condition. Conducted DBT groups and studies. I saw comparable numbers if not more instances of human emotion mimicry and insincerity from “non-personality” disordered type for fear of ‘not fitting in’, which is more acceptable to society, followers, contributing to racism, gangs, mass shootings. The Holocaust and any and all religious reasons to wage war with millions of people willing to die on blind faith. During election season, masses of people voting decisions based on bigotry or fear. 80% of us would be better off if they voted in their own self interests.

Somehow, someone concerned with their image, how they’re perceived, need for control, competitive natures, selfishness, arrogance and who make up a fraction of the population, are the villains you hear of incessantly now. Everyone saying the same things. No love or empathy. Ted Bundy was undetectable largely due to public service and humanitarian causes. Don’t confuse my comparisons these are sociopathic and anti-social personality disorder references, the worst of us that blended in better than many of the best of our society. A considerable portion of our population won’t separate from the all too comfortable and encouraged ‘pack’ and pack mentality.

Who’s more dangerous?

The field is going to change. Mark my words. If I have to do it myself.

C. D. Chavez PsyD.
11/8/2016″

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So why didn’t I just approve this even if they made their comment in ‘Reply’, @ someone else… would that someone else have minded, was it really a problem?

Hmmmm….

Perhaps not, perhaps I made a mountain out of a mole hill or a worm hole….

But there are certain aspects to this comment which bothered me and thus supported my decision (wrong or right or that grey whatever in between).

This commentor posted their comment twice – something which some commentors do when they don’t see their comment immediately appear on the post. They don’t get that since they’re a new commentor their comment is held in moderation until the blogger sees it, reads it and decides whether or not to approve it (once a comment is approved that commentor’s comments will appear immediately unless you change something in your comment log-in data). I know commenting on blogs is confusing… and on WordPress some comments get lost, get eaten up by several glitches, but sometimes it’s the blogger who makes a decision which isn’t one the commentor wants… but you cede control of what happens to your words, like you do when you say something to someone in conversation (you didn’t mean to offend them but they got offended anyway even if what they heard wasn’t what you said).

So what bothered me about this comment other than the whole ‘Reply’ thing?

Well… It pretty much accused anyone who comments on my Narcissism posts of being narcissists (which could be true, I haven’t really run a professional study on such a matter… I do occasionally wonder if a person commenting is one of those narcissists who accuses everyone else of being narcissists but that’s more rare than usual, and thus overall I prefer to disagree with that possible truth).

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Alexander Lowen’s book on Narcissism is a worthy read if you’re investigating the subject. He does focus more on the Narcissist than on those who have to live with and/or deal with a Narcissist… but those who have to live and/or deal with a Narcissist also focus their attention on the Narcissist because that’s what happens when a Narcissist enters the room, your life, comments on your blog. PAY ATTENTION TO ME! – is the cry of the narcissistic wound and it’s so loud, emphasised by pain, by fear, by the pain of fear and the fear of pain, that we do exactly that.

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If you want people to listen to you it’s usually a good idea not to insult everyone by accusing them of being narcissists. This may be part of some salient point you’re making about how hard it is to figure out who is a narcissist and who isn’t and other subtleties of the problem, but… the first comment you make is an introduction of others to you, so… be careful, perhaps use some of that magic stuff known as ’empathy’.  For example, if someone’s first words to you are ‘You’re wrong and I’m going to tell you why….” are you really going to embrace what they have to say? Are you really going to form a good first impression of them? Or are you going to want to avoid them because they’ve basically warned you that they are a bringer of pain, of the awful truth about you according to them, they’re going to build themselves up by breaking you down? They’re a potential bore who only likes to make others feel bad about themselves because that’s the only way they can feel good about themselves… and there are so many people like that in the world why bother spending your valuable attention on another?

Sometimes you need to pause before embarking on a crusade, however righteous you think that this crusade is while sitting in your intellectual ivory tower, and consider the other side of your equation. Yes, we’re talking empathy – intelligent empathy. The side of those whom you want to impress with your point is as relevant as your point and your side. If you want people to listen to you you need to understand the people whom you want to listen to you (Hilary could have used some lessons in this – even idiots know when someone thinks they’re an idiot and treats them as one even if they’re pretending to be all condescendingly inclusive).

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This could just as easily apply to non-gender issues – a ‘No’ is a ‘No’ and if someone isn’t into what you’re selling, they’re not into it, using force isn’t going sell them on what you want them to buy. If what you’re selling is an identity, a point, opinion, crusade, etc, and they don’t want to buy into it they have a right to say no… you should really listen and hear that no of theirs, but a narcissist doesn’t give a shit about others…

Gavin de Becker’s book – The Gift of Fear – is an excellent if very chilling read. Essential for those involved with Narcissists and other people who are all about them, want you to be all about them, make who you are all about them, etc.

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This commentor’s impatience at their comment not appearing immediately on my blog prompted them to write another comment which was almost exactly the same as the first except for a couple of differences… which made all the difference. The second comment (the one I’ve copy and pasted above) reveals more about them and their motivation to comment than the first one did.

The very last words of the second comment (words which were omitted from the first comment) which this person made summed up my reluctance for me.

This bit was the added bit (at least it was the most noticeable change and difference – things were getting a bit more personal, detachment was detaching itself giving way to attachment to a personal cause of personal bias):

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Who’s more dangerous?

The field is going to change. Mark my words. If I have to do it myself.”

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Can you see what I saw?

Can you feel the discomfort which I felt?

Can you understand why I made the decision which I made whether it was right, wrong or fell off a cliff into grey areas? Would you have made a similar decision or a different one – feel free to share and @ me with it in the comments.

Have you learned anything about Love or Empathy from this person’s comment? Or did they live up to their introductory promise of ‘No Love or Empathy’ for the narcissist or anyone else because… are they done with it? Has it caused them to suffer too much and they can’t stand to suffer anymore?

Did they set an example which we all should follow, want to follow because their argument was so well made, or avoid following because they reminded us of those people we’ve followed before and… no thanks, been there, done that, rather not be there and do that again?

I’ll tell you what or more precisely who they reminded me of… which is sort of a compliment and sort of a grey area….

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for some reason they reminded me of R.D. Laing… a rather crazy genius whose work is very much worth reading (with detachment). He’s the author of one of my favourite psychology books – Sanity, Madness and the Family (he wrote this with A. Esterson, not sure how much of it is the hard work of his colleague and how much of it is his).

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Over to you… I’m passing this hot potato on…

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16 thoughts on “Who’s More Dangerous?

  1. I have no idea what the original poster meant with this post, neither will i speculate about it.
    I have not even had a relationsship with a narcissist, even though it was close.
    If i wanted to have a relationsship with said narcissist i definitely knew that it would mean i had to give up my self-worth, sense of self and identity, put ut all in her hands and be committed to be her humble slave. I just could not let that happen. In other words you would have to be rather masochistic to jump into a relationsship with this woman.
    Who would be this masochistic?

    It is always so comfortable to label someone as a narcissist., because then we do not have to confront ourselves with the harsh truth.
    In my case. I hated my job, I hated my flat, I had no partner. In short I hated my life. My confidence and self-worth had been flushed down the drain long ago. When everything still was fine. I thought she was way too awkward to even think about her as a partner. Why was she all of a sudden becoming interesting?
    The truth is not pretty, but i was a pathetic bastard and i knew it.
    Perhaps it really was her, for not comforming to my narcissistic needs.

    It was all about her… It was all about me… or was it about her?

    In short: I guess sometimes you just need an asshole to get the job done. 😉

    Perhaps I should thank her for opening me up for a bit of self-discovery. 😉

    Who was most dangerous? Her for trying to get me to fit in the role she wanted me to be in, or me for trying to get her to fit into the role i wanted for her?

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    1. Thank you 🙂

      I love the questions which you’ve asked and answered. That sort of self-reflection is key in both understanding ourselves and in understanding our relationship with a narcissist.

      Sometimes we do have to label someone else, and label them as a narcissist – but you’re absolutely right when you point out that we need to ask ourselves about the label we’ve applied to them and what it says about us.

      We become dangerous to ourselves, and to others, when we don’t want to look within, even if looking within causes discomfort… sometimes comfort is not in denial but in confronting and passing through the discomfort.

      Narcissists do indeed open us up to self-discovery… thanking them for it can be done from a safe distance. A silent nod to the ghost who passed through our lives and rattled some chains which we needed to hear. Thanking them in person… is like saying to a poltergeist – please keep haunting me and causing chaos. 😉

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  2. I agree completely with what you did. I also found the comment difficult to follow, but I’m certain that it’s arguing that NPD people have feelings and can love and are misunderstood and it’s the “normal” people who are “crazy.” The last few sentences could have come straight from my mother’s mouth. “You mark my words” and “if I have to do it myself” were favourite lines of hers. One was for scaring you and the other was for guilting you. I also think it unlikely that this person has a doctorate in psychiatry.

    However, on second thought, maybe I have this completely wrong and need to find a tree to pray at. 😉

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Thank you 🙂

      OMG!!! I peed myself at your prayer tree!

      One of my mother’s favourites was – If you want something done then you have to do it yourself – usually said as a loud martyr grumble advertising the fact that she was doing something which she had expected someone else to do but they failed to do it (or did it really badly, it wasn’t good enough, etc) and now it was up to her to save everyone from imminent destruction due to failure to do this vital thing.

      I inherited that one a bit… but I’ve curbed the martyr side effect (or I think I have…).

      Living in a world where narcissists are ‘fixing’ and ‘saving’ everyone from imminent destruction due to all of us being so stupid, inefficient, etc… most of us don’t have the time or the luxury to go on a crusade or follow someone else who is leading one, we’re too busy tidying up the mess caused by the ‘fixes’ and ‘saves’ of narcissists, and trying to recover from the trauma of one of their crusades, fixes, saves.

      Some of what this comment stirred up for me was captured by your post – https://lynettedartycross.com/2016/11/07/donald-trump-and-the-cult-of-narcissism/ – reading this comment and reading your post happened close together, and this part of your post has stuck in my mind:

      “Should those terms even be bandied about? The terms narcissist, narcissism, narcissist, psychopath and psychopathic have been very popularly, very loosely used over the last few years. Have they started to lose their impact, their importance, through overuse?

      Is this one of those times when those words really do apply to someone and people are ignoring them because vocabulary fatigue has set in?”

      I think ‘narcissist fatigue’ could definitely be a thing… I definitely felt something akin to that while reading this person’s comment.

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      1. Now, now. I know it’s all very exciting, but don’t be peeing on my special tree. 😀

        My mother liked that, too, but she actually didn’t want someone else doing whatever job it was – that would take her power away.

        Yes. The fixing and saving. They are so convinced that theirs is the right way (well, wanting to be right is a human thing, and no one likes being wrong); it’s as if the world will fall apart. I hated being told that I “needed” to do something or other when I knew that she didn’t know what she was talking about. It nevertheless made me doubt myself.

        Thanks for the link to my post. 🙂 I am very concerned that “narcissism” is becoming (or has become) a sort of trendy fad and will eventually pass into overuse & oblivion. I am reminded of someone I knew a few years back who decided not to vaccinate her kids because “everyone else is vaccinating theirs.” A virus by any other name is still a virus, with or without herd protection. I think that’s what I’m trying to say. 🙂

        Liked by 1 person

        1. If you look at other subjects which have gone through the same awareness raising process as Narcissism, there’s a pattern which they seem to have to go through before reaching some sort of balance. A ‘backlash’ to the overuse, overwriting about it, overexposure to it, of some kind is probably inevitable as to reach a balanced view things usually need to go from one extreme to another, then back again, swinging from extremes until the extremes become less extreme, until the pendulum finds its sweet spot at the point of joining and merging of extremes. So at some point there will probably be a general fed-upness with narcissism as a subject and especially with ‘narcissist’ as an accusation, however I don’t think it’ll pass into oblivion. Things will level out as they have with other issues. Those who go from fad to fad will be the ones to move on to the next fad, while those who find the subject still relevant to them, who are genuinely interested for real reasons, will stick with it.

          Narcissism has to go through the stages of a narcissistic relationship of people with the subject for it and us to learn from it. 🙂

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  3. Ursula, I applaud your ability to discern that comment. To me – it was somewhat unreadable.
    If that person replied to me, I’d have probably either skipped the comment due to inability to comprehend or asked him in reply what did he mean because I’m having trouble understanding what’s he talking about. From what I read (twice, just to make sure I didn’t miss anything) I see a controversial statement, I can’t quite make it out from the post what side he is actually on, or if he is on any side at all for that matter, and what is the point of being on any side? It seems to me like he is missing the point or doesn’t know what he is talking about, as if he heard/read about the subject but has no personal stake/input in it. I’m sorry if I misunderstood. Many words, jumbled, like the tug of war, top it up with a conclusion that is a complete conundrum to me. I give up.
    Narcissism is a difficult subject no matter how you look at it. From what I learn, people approach it from different perspective, from different points of their recovery, from different levels of screwed up life. For me personally it’s a matter of understanding, re-evaluating and analysing my messed up life in order not to mess it even more than it already is. Besides, it takes two to tango, getting out of that dance intact takes a lot of work.

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    1. Thank you 🙂

      I agree it was rather unreadable. It was intellectual, the kind of intellectual which doesn’t really aim to be readable. If everyone could understand what was said then the person saying it would not feel elevated above others, and they’ve worked and studied hard to be part of an elite – an elite from which they feel rejected in some way and this rejection has stoked an inner fire.

      I kind of think this comment was more of a personal conversation between them and their inner demons, foes they project and transfer out of themselves, etc, rather than something for ‘real’ others. They’re on a crusade and they’re fighting a battle which doesn’t really involve us, we’re a backdrop for their quest – a quest which only they can do, which only they know needs to be done.

      I think your impression of ‘many words, jumbled, like a tug of war’ is correct.

      For a subject like narcissism to be understood it has to happen for each of us in our own way. Awareness works differently for each of us, and we each bring our understanding and awareness to others like a piece of the whole puzzle – only when we all have shared our perspective can the whole picture be found, because the bigger picture is made up of millions of facets (as you insightfully pointed out in another comment).

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  4. Hmmm…my first instinct was to go with my rational mind theorizing mode but then I reread it a few more times and I saw it. I saw it in the writing style and words used and the comparisions given but what struck me the most was him stating he has worked in the psychiatric field for 1/2 his life. That struck a cord with me- but why? It doesn’t make sense, that’s why. When things don’t make sense and I have trouble connecting the dots- I then attempt the change over my other mode of thinking- critical thinking. Not posting as a reply to someone else’s comment was a good move, well done Ursula ❤

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    1. Thank you 🙂

      Their statement about working in the psychiatric field for ‘half their life’ stuck out for me too. It’s an interesting statement especially considering that they didn’t share a time frame for that, didn’t give their age or a number of years. They left it vague, open to whoever reads it to give it their own period of time – it’s a rather clever omission as people reading that statement are more likely to assume that this ‘half their life’ is probably a long time, might be like 20 years, and therefore assume that this person is old, wise, with loads of experience and thus whatever they say must be… what?

      The claim of having a Psy.D was something which also stuck out. They were very keen on impressing upon the readers of their words that they are an ‘authority’ on the matter. Why? Were they perhaps trying to prove that even though they were commenting on one of my narcissism posts they were not a ‘narcissist’ as they deemed the other commentors on my narcissism posts to be – they were an exception because they were a ‘professional’ and this makes them special, exempts them from their parameters and criteria.

      Besides… this is the internet… no one ever lies about their CV online, right? Everyone is exactly who they say they are…

      I did do a quick search of their name and credentials… Google wasn’t helpful, I guess their work to change the world is only in its infancy.

      Most professionals wouldn’t bother commenting on a personal blog like mine because their profession would consider this unprofessional. If they did comment they would probably do so anonymously. Or they’d contact me as part of some ‘study’. If they are who they say they are, they’re going rogue.

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  5. Hot potato is right, Lol.
    Couple of my thoughts for what it’s worth…what’s so wrong about telling the truth to someone? Should we automatically consider if it will cause pain or invoke hurt? Isn’t some forms of pain/hurt usefull and actually positive in learning “truths”? I do understand empathy and/or being sensitive to others feelings. However, sometimes I feel others(close to or not) know this truth about said person and refrain from telling them “truths” to avoid “possible” hurt feelings. For whatever reason, sometimes I feel a responsibility in a sense that this person might not find out about this truth unless someone speaks up. I honestly feel that I’m just trying to help this person find out about this issue(good, bad or ugly) NOT to make myself look any better, smarter or superior. Is that narcissistic? Codependant?
    And yes other times I also try to employ empathy or discretion by deciding that Maybe not commenting might be a wiser choice, thinking that said person will eventually “find out” that truth through other experiences or self reflecting “ah-ha” moments. When possible I try to give the benefit of doubt depending on the climate of the conversation, however sometimes I can’t help myself from blurting out…Sometimes regretting, sometimes not. Is it possible that I’m selfishly judging this person’s ability to discover truths on their own? Should I be practicing harder to just keep my mouth shut?

    Ps: like the quote from Laing 😉

    Like

    1. Thank you 🙂

      I love what you’ve shared, it’s part of a conundrum which often raises its head in relationships and interactions. People often say they want the truth (sometimes they add that perplexing proviso – even if it hurts) but then you share your truth with them and their reaction to your truth which they claimed they wanted leaves you with the impression that they didn’t want the truth at all (and if they added the proviso – even if it hurts – that was probably a warning that they didn’t want the truth at all because they perceive truth as painful and therefore if you give it to them they’ll experience it as pain, hurt, etc). Maybe they did want the truth or maybe they did but they didn’t think things through – part of them wants the truth, the other part of them doesn’t want it and they haven’t resolved this inner conflict. Or maybe they just liked the way saying they wanted the truth sounded when they said it but they don’t actually want the truth they just want the persona they create for themselves when they say they want and can handle the truth – even if it hurts.

      People are complex… and so is the concept of the truth. What is the truth? The truth is as complex as people and their concept of the truth.

      I’m with you on the – say it as you see it – I prefer doing that and prefer it when others do that. But that often seems to cause more problems rather than solve them (mind you not telling the truth is also a ride on the problem rollercoaster).

      I’ve learned the hard way (over and over) that before you speak, especially when your speech involves saying a ‘truth’ that isn’t necessarily easy to digest, you need to pause and reflect… sometimes for a long while… take in the scenery, the context, the moment. Each moment is different with a different set of parameters so while you can have a basic guideline it does need to be adjusted and remain flexible, incorporate the factors which are of the moment. One of the factors of the moment is the person to whom you are speaking – how they hear and listen, how they digest words and thoughts, etc. Some people can detach, compartmentalise, see each thing as a separate from the whole (while also part of the whole), while other people are attached to everything, and it’s all amorphous.

      For instance, one person who bakes a pie and shares it with you, then asks you if you liked it, is okay with you telling them your truth about your experience of their pie. It’s a pie, its separate from them, maybe they’re experimenting and need honest feedback to improve, evolve and progress their pie skills. They don’t want you to tell them you found it delicious if you found it disgusting – this type of person probably already knows which way your tasting session went because their observational skills are active and working to inform them of the truth. Someone else might have a very different story to their pie baking and sharing – their identity, mental or emotional status, etc, may be depending on your acceptance of the pie – it’s not about a pie, not about baking, not about evolving, improving and progressing in the pie baking skills department – this pie represents them, their love, their heart. Reject it even just slightly and for them this is a rejection of who they are. It wasn’t about a pie for them, it was about accepting them, loving them, embracing their being and all it entails.

      The ‘truth’ in those two imaginary cases is different. It may appear to be the same. The pie is the same, your experience of that pie may be the same, but the person who baked and shared their pie with you is not the same and therefore the consequences of telling them your truth about the pie’s taste will not be the same.

      Sometimes we just have to share our truth, blurt it out and see what happens then deal with what happens, because our story is just as important as the story of the pie maker.

      People who don’t want or can’t handle our truth really shouldn’t be asking us for the truth… but we know, because we’re human as they are, that we’re often our own worst enemy, or deluded about ourselves, or under the impression that we were ready to hear something when we’re not ready yet… but maybe we needed the ‘bad’ experience to inform us… maybe not…

      It’s very complicated being human and dealing with other humans 😉

      We’re all a bit codependent and narcissistic… those two concepts have flip sides. If we weren’t codependent to a degree… we’d have all most likely killed each other by now because our narcissism would have made us want to be the only person on the planet as others are screwing up the beauty and etc of this place up for us. If we weren’t narcissistic to a degree… we most likely wouldn’t be so worried about identity and all that entails, however we also wouldn’t be in tune with human nature which seems to need narcissism to a degree to do whatever it does… perhaps narcissism is a necessary part of evolution (and the bigger picture isn’t about humans but the planet which created us).

      As far as I’m concerned – Don’t keep your mouth shut, that practice would mean missing out on what you have to share and that would be a like a plant becoming extinct before it had the chance to share its part in life.

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      1. Thanks for the reply…
        What a pandora’s box huh? Appreciate your thoughts(as always) and it makes my brain smile to see were pretty much on the same page.
        Stopping me from voicing my opinion would take a chair and roll of duct tape, heh😝

        (ps; another topic suggestion: “reverse psychology”)?

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