Who Comes First – Me or You or Everyone Else?

Yesterday I was finishing off some DIY in the sitting room. Don’t award me a halo. I was fixing a mess I’d made this Summer while trying to find the point of entry of swarming ants – the third time this happened I took out a hammer.

My partner was in the room playing Fortnite. This is how he relaxes. To an observer it doesn’t seem all that relaxing since there’s a lot of grumbling, shouting and swearing, and occasionally the controller gets thrown on the floor.

Yesterday he was getting particularly annoyed with another player who was supposed to be on his team but kept killing him (known in gameplay as a Toxic Player – Someone in a game that is a horrible teammate and player but thinks they are a fucking genius and not the reason the team is losing – def. from Urban Dictionary).

“Why do people like this exist!?!” he exclaimed in frustration before quitting the game and going out to light a bonfire.

I didn’t try to answer my partner’s question because it wasn’t really a question. And at the time he certainly didn’t want or need one of my long-winded philosophical musings on why people like that exist.


image and words by Amrit Brar


I’ve asked that question fairly often throughout my life. Sometimes in the same way that my partner asked it – in extreme frustration when once again I’d been metaphorically killed by someone who was supposed to be on my team.

I’ve come up with many different answers to that question over the years, including the one where I’ve wondered if perhaps people like that exist because people like me exist.

There are many ways of interpreting a statement like – people like that exist because people like me exist.

The way I used to use it most often was – If I didn’t exist then others wouldn’t have to be like that. I saw myself as the problem, the cause of an effect, a negative presence which was infecting positive people, and the solution was for me to cease to exist.

I didn’t come up with that all on my own. I grew up with narcissist parents who regularly blamed me for their misery – their lives and relationship was peachy and perfect until I messed it all up by being born, and continued to do so by continuing to exist.

Of course that was all narcissistic BS (you are always the negative to a narcissist’s view of themselves as the positive), but I didn’t know that during those years when it worked its way into my psyche and took root.

Many of my difficulties with life on Human Earth stem from that seed which took root and grew and grew, spreading and spreading.

It caused plenty of problems for my relationship with my partner. I just couldn’t understand why he loved me or wanted to be with me. I was certain that he’d be healthier, happier, better off without me.

I saw myself as some sort of curse and cursed being.

Although it didn’t feel or appear to me at all like it was… it was egomania. It was unhealthy narcissism – while I didn’t view myself as the best of the best, and instead I saw myself as the worst of the worst, that still made me narcissitically ‘special’.

But why?

Why did someone like me exist?

Most of us ask something along these lines at some point in our journey of existence.

There are multitudinous answers to a question like that, and numerous ways to approach finding your own answer.

One of the ways I find most intriguing and interesting is Astrology. Yes, yes, yes, I know it’s pseudoscience and other intellectual sounding yadda yadda against it, please stop trying to save me from my own stupidity and just do what you can actually do (that’s more logical, no?).

Here’s my natal chart with transits of the moment (generated by Astrodienst):



I’ve never had my chart read by an astrologer.

But I have had an incorrect version of my natal chart read by a few different astrologers (I had my time of birth wrong, I thought it was AM but it was actually PM). Those experiences happened during a period in my life when I was desperate to have someone else tell me who I am, why I am, why am I, and what should I do with myself while I’m here, what’s the point of me, what’s my purpose.

My correct natal chart above shows that I’m the sort of person who should not be going around asking other people to tell me who I am, etc. This can mainly be seen in the red lines (hard aspects) connecting the 1st house of self and the 7th house of others (personal relationships). It also shows that I’m likely to do exactly that until I figure out for myself the hard way that I should stop doing that kind of activity (but… but… but… NO!). This can be seen in Chiron conjunct North Node in the 7th, opposing Uranus and Pluto (and SN) in the 1st (there’s other stuff too but… NO!).

Recently I’ve been reading up quite a bit on the Nodes – they’re hypothetical points or something like that. They’re considered to be Karmic points – past karma versus present karmic lessons = possible future karma if… The write-ups are fascinating to read as those doing the write-ups rarely if ever reveal their own astro… when they do it makes what they’re saying more interesting and informative.

How much of an astrologer’s (or astrology enthusiast’s) interpretation is based on their own natal astro? I reckon that no one can escape their own bias… so an astrologer writing about astrology is basically at some level living out their own astro with their interpretations whether they admit to it or are consciously aware of it or not. That’s why I like astrologers like Elsa from Elsa Elsa, who bravely share their own astro. She can be frigging annoying at times but… is that her or is that me, is that her astro or my astro or our astro combined and reacting, at least with her you can contrast and compare, figure things out for yourself.

Now that transiting Uranus is in Taurus, which many astrologers view as a compliment to transiting Pluto in Capricorn = systems need to be radically restructured, it may be time for Astrology and astrologers to take an Uranian leap of faith in their own systems.

We all need to do a bit of that – test our theories out in real time. Are we really who we say we are, are others who we really think they are, etc?



One of the repeated reasons why I shouldn’t ask other people to tell me who I am is because other people don’t tend to perceive me as I perceive myself – this is valid for all of us, we perceive ourselves from the inside out, while others perceive us from the outside in (or more exactly they perceive us through the filter of their inside out looking at our outside in – and we do the same with other people).

One of the things about me which provoked my mother to continuously pick on me (pick, pick, pick, pick, pick – was one of my ‘nicknames’ for her behaviour. She did this with everyone and everything, even herself… her doing it to herself was partly why she did it with everyone and everything) was, according to her, that I was too confident. She would justify her picking on me by saying that it was for my own good, my over-confidence would get me hurt and she was attempting to stop me from being hurt by… hurting me (that’s narcissist logic for you). But of course she didn’t see her hurting me as her hurting me at all. She would never hurt anyone!

She would also be provoked into attacking me by what to her looked like my invulnerability to being hurt.

I wasn’t invulnerable to being hurt. I wasn’t overly confident either. And she would have noticed that about me if she hadn’t been blinded by herself, her inside out, projected everywhere and onto everyone.

I was one of those – Why do people like this exist – for her.

For me she was one of those people who sees me but doesn’t see me at all. I am there but not there. Visible yet invisible. I don’t exist as I am, I am whoever they have decided that I am and their version of me is the correct one, and it has to be picked apart because it is annoying to them, it hurts them, provokes them (all of this can be seen in my natal chart, particularly with regards to Pluto’s placement and aspects – Pluto hides what it touches).


excerpt from – Pluto and Me: The Two Great Invisibles by Jeremy Neal


And yet a part of them wants to be who they see when they look at you – because it’s what they’ve disowned of themselves which is seeking to be integrated, reintegrated.

Whenever you meet a – Why do people like this exist – it’s worth asking yourself – Is that a part of me that I am meeting in someone else?

It can be a tricky puzzle to solve.

Throughout my life I’ve attracted many people who have reminded me of my mother, who have behaved as she did with me, and have left me shouting in frustration: “Why do people like this exist!?!”

With my mother I tried repeatedly to get through to her that I wasn’t who she thought I was. But she was very certain that her version of the reality of me was the only one which existed.

When I met my partner, my mother insisted (by having a tantrum) that my partner take her out to dinner without me so that she could reveal to him who I really was (someone awful who he should get away from ASAP). She particularly wanted him to know about my ‘black moods’ (I don’t think it ever occurred to her that those were a result of her tantrums, because to her her tantrums were my fault or someone else’s, like my father’s, fault – the buck was always on the move).

She was indignantly furious that he hadn’t asked her, the expert on me, about me.

After their tete-a-tete dinner he was also rather indignant and furious in a calm and focused non-tantrum-throwing manner… that she had talked to him about me the way that she had.

Her plan to separate us and keep me all to herself (even though I was such a burden to her and so awful) to protect me from being deeply hurt by love (her justification for what she was doing) backfired.

My mother didn’t like my partner mainly because he was not impressed by her, and was also not intimated by her. His natal chart has a tight stellium of Sun/Mercury/Uranus/Pluto in Virgo. He is very thoughtful and considerate – but beware of the fury of a patient (and acutely observant) man.



For many years I wondered if perhaps my mother was right about me – sometimes who other people think we are is closer to the truth of who we are than who we think we are. Just think of narcissists… and your opinion of the ones you know versus their opinion of themselves, whose opinion is closer to the truth of who they really are?

The perspectives others have of us can be informative, and they can also be how misinformation about us gets spread far and wide.

For a long while in my life I tried to not be the person who other people (mainly my mother, and her minions, but also my father and his minions) kept telling me that I was. So basically what I was doing was trying not to be who I wasn’t already. I could have just stopped trying to be anyone or anything and just been myself, but being myself was a confusing matter by then – I’d lost track of who I was, and when I was in tune with it, it felt out of sync with the world and the people in it around me.

These days I don’t tend to attract people like my mother as often as I used to. Have I solved that ‘problem’ or simply gone into hiding from it? Like hiding from something which will seek you out and find you like a heat-seeking missile ever worked before… but maybe this time, yeah!?!

The answer may lie within the transits which my natal chart is currently and has recently been undergoing – there’s a fair amount of Saturn-related activity in my chart.

My bouncebackability (Uranus conjunct Jupiter… just when I think I’m not only down but totally dead this time…



I pop back up and shout Fighting (Hwaiting)!!!) took a big hit via a square from transiting Saturn at the end of 2017/beginning of 2018 which is still active. But transiting Pluto has also been restructuring my natal Saturn (which squares natal Sun = a constant case of the never good enoughs, the you-sucks, and the you’d be better off deads, Mork calling Grim Reaper, come in Grim Reaper).

Ooh! Which reminds me that I watched – Bleach – the other night and while it is a bit of a mess, it’s also a fun kind of mess. It’s one of those films which, imo, captures astrological (and archetypal) concepts. The main character undergoes a very Pluto experience, and is in some ways the embodiment of the Pluto in the 1st placement in all its glory, gory, and ultimately humbling aspects.

Now that I’m older, Saturn-related stuff is kind of almost fun (yeah, yeah, keep telling yourself that!). Do not take me with you to a funeral (including my own) unless you want someone to be inappropriate (gallows humour is never too soon, is it?). I am learning to curb my weird and freakish enthusiasm… a bit… but, frankly, without it I fall into an intensely serious hole from which I’m not sure I really want out. There’s something about being deadly serious which… at the very least keeps others away from you so you have time to spend with yourself to get to know yourself, witch warts and all.

Someone on Twitter, back in the day when I actually tweeted, said via tweet that what they liked about me was that I shared openly the black tar inside of me. I don’t know what they were talking about, but I sort of do.



I share fairly openly and sometimes seemingly brazenly (probably due to natal Mars in Scorpio in the 3rd house of communication) what is often kept hidden by wiser, saner, and more socially acceptable types.

This has at times made me into a sort of a dirty little secret for others… if you read me but don’t want anyone to know you do that kind of thing, then… that’s okay. I don’t write posts to be popular, to get Likes and Shares, to make money, to sell something or myself. Mainly I write posts to get something out of my system and see it when it’s out of the inner system – some things I’ve written have helped me to change my system, bit by tiny bit.

If you look at my natal astro you’ll see that the out there in public houses (9th, 10th, 11th) of my chart are untenanted. Unless you count dark horses like Lilith in my 10th (square Pluto) and Orcus in my 11th (opposition Sun, Square Saturn).

What does that mean? I’ve been investigating and rethinking the whole untenanted/empty houses thing… with some hmmmm results thus far. Those empty areas are the stuff I’ve chased after but have never been able to catch – Why? Why do we do that? Why do we chase after things and people who run away from us, often ignoring things and people who are there for us, we have those (we could lose those while chasing after what and who we don’t have and may never have)?

Every now and then I’ve had an opportunity to catch what I’ve been chasing for years… and recoiled from reaching out to grasp and grab it as though it was diseased and infectious, and I didn’t want that infection because it would kill off what I truly valued.

Being human is so frustratingly complicated and complex!

The 4th house of family, foundation, roots, etc is also empty in my chart (unless you include asteroids, and then it gets busy), which I kind of see as giving me nothing and everything (being and nothingness) as roots but not roots all at once.


image and words by Amrit Brar


The shape of my chart based on placements and aspects looks like a bowl… into which stuff pours, sloshes around, then seeps, leaks or overflows out.

Any questions?

Any answers?

Please note: I am going to read what you write and think and rethink about it. I do reply to comments… you have been warned.


  1. I always wondered how much in common do Scorpio(my hubby) and Virgo(myself) have? Their astrological signs are quite similar.


    • Compatibility in relationships between signs is explored in several different ways in astrology.

      The most basic approach is through the elements – Scorpio is a Water sign and Virgo is an Earth sign, Water and Earth are viewed as being compatible, they naturally blend and work well together for the most part.

      Then there is the Quality of the signs – Cardinal, Fixed and Mutable. Cardinal signs are bossy, Fixed signs are stubborn, Mutable signs are always changing direction. Kidding, but not kidding. Here’s a quick and easy look at that – http://astrostyle.com/learn-astrology/cardinal-mutable-fixed-signs/

      If you search online, you’ll find many results giving an overview of Sun sign relationships. Here’s a fun one for Virgo/Scorpio: https://www.astromatcha.com/astrology-compatibility/scorpio-compatibility/scorpio-and-virgo-compatibility/

      If you want to explore your relationship in more detail, you have to look beyond Sun sign astrology. Your respective rising signs will also be interacting, as will all your other planetary placements. How you relate mentally, how you communicate, will be seen through the interaction of your respective Mercury’s. For love relationships the Moon, Venus and Mars placements are of particular interest – Moon is how we nurture/need to be nurtured, Venus is how we love/what we seek in love, Mars is how we experience passion/how we share that passion.

      For instance I have Mercury in Aquarius while my partner has Mercury in Virgo – elementally that’s Air and Earth which aren’t particularly compatible. My communication style is a bit like a whirlwind that often leaves my partner in a dust storm, very confused about WTF I was actually saying. He’s very precise and detail oriented, sometimes only communicating when he has something to say. In the early years of our relationship we had a lot of conversations about our conversations while we tried to figure out how to communicate with each other effectively. When we play video games, like Assassin’s Creed 😉 , which is mainly a Mercury activity, I’m usually running all over the place exploring the game world, while he wants to explore it methodically – he loves crafting, and improving his gear, while I find that boring and will use whatever I find, scavenging for upgraded tools (if the game allows for that). Our different styles actually work well together in game play. If there’s a boss battle, I usually give up after a couple of tries, but he will stick with it until the boss is defeated.

      However we are very compatible when it comes to our respective Moon, Venus, and Mars, especially with Mars – we both have Mars in Scorpio, we’re both intensely passionate, secretive, obsessive, good at seeing what’s going on under the surface, and relentlessly competitive. We’re evenly matched, which means neither of us needs to hold back, although we both tend to think we’re holding back because Scorpio always likes to keep stuff back, have a secret weapon it only uses never.

      For an in depth look into relationships it is usually recommended that you generate natal charts for both of you, and then compare the charts using Synastry, which shows how your charts aspect each other, where they connect and how they connect. Astro.com has a fun AstroClick Partner option which uses a Composite chart – which is a relationship ‘natal’ chart created by blending your birth data with your partner’s, but this needs time of birth.

      It’s more fun to explore a relationship using astrology when you know quite a bit about your relationship already because then you can contrast and compare what an interpretation says and what you know.

      Have fun with it 🙂


      • 😁thank you for the info…i will check it out…BTW my husband plays games like your partner, I love watching his brain at work.

        Liked by 1 person

  2. OMG. Why your mother would think that throwing a tantrum in order to get a private dinner with your partner is in any way appropriate just boggles the mind. I mean, I know why she did it and I know that narcissists behave that way but yikes! This behaviour still has the power to shock. And your partner is a trooper. Just calmly going along, knowing that she’s full of bs and hot f***ing air. Why does someone like me exist? On the banister of life I’m a splinter? I’m also a glistening shiny spot? Maybe it’s something like Schrodinger’s cat – both here and not here at same time; both delivering and receiving karma at the same time. Actually, I’m probably living inside a vacuum cleaner dust bag and all this is just a giant hallucination. 😉


    • When I was in my late teens I was so fed up of people telling me what was wrong with and about me that I eventually would just say something along the lines of – with so many winners like you in the world it might become unbalanced, so losers like me are necessary to maintain the balance. It’s a shitty job but somebody has to do it to keep the humaniverse from toppling over.

      In other words people like me exist as a counterbalance. You can’t have tidy without mess like me 😉

      Needless to say that didn’t go down well, and I got told off for being a smartass, but at least it changed the narrative a bit and also made some people think twice before coming to me to put me down so they could lift themselves up.

      I definitely think there’s something in the concept of reality being one giant hallucination. Overall I tend to view myself as an atom collective, and there is no real ‘me, myself, I’ that’s just what the atom collective calls itself.

      Yes, the behaviour of narcissists does have the power to shock – that seems to be part of its purpose. It makes us stop and think. It throws us off balance. It can give us the opportunity to snap out of one of many smaller hallucinations within the big hallucination.

      My mother didn’t view her tantrums as tantrums, to her (as with most narcissists) they were necessary reactions to an injustice, to being wronged, to the bad behaviour of others. She was simply righting a wrong. Teaching others good behaviour. She saw herself as the epitome of reasonable, polite, patient, generous and fair human beingness. The problem was that others were always taking advantage of her saintliness, and every now and then she’d have to put her foot down and just say NO! when people were being disrespectful. But she only got angry when she’d been pushed too far, when others had gone too far, so her anger was always justified.

      Of course all of that is BS to people like me who viewed things from a different perspective, and saw her regularly explode over small nothings which to her were huge somethings.

      You definitely have a sparkle about you 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

  3. I read this very quickly on Sunday night and sent an internal memo to myself read it again when you have more time. As I was reading through the post on Sunday a recurring thought kept popping into my mind this is a self healing post then I got to this paragraph —-This has at times made me into a sort of a dirty little secret for others… if you read me but don’t want anyone to know you do that kind of thing, then… that’s okay. I don’t write posts to be popular, to get Likes and Shares, to make money, to sell something or myself. Mainly I write posts to get something out of my system and see it when it’s out of the inner system – some things I’ve written have helped me to change my system, bit by tiny bit.—–This validated my thoughts even though there was loads more good interesting stuff in the post. So as always I have a question, do you think the changes to your inner system are long overdue and happening too slowly or too quickly?
    A ps, why would anyone want to keep your posts a secret didn’t understand that bit !


    • That’s an intriguing question cluster 🙂

      Overall I would say that the changes to my inner system happen exactly when they’re supposed to happen, as in when I’m really ready for them rather than when I think I’m ready for them.

      I have tried to force a change to happen, and it often ends up causing a setback because while a forced change may look and feel like a real change it is not a real change and at some point the control I’m exerting on myself to force the change is going to lose its grip, and I’ll end up reverting to the way I was before the forced change. Sometimes I end up rewinding further back – a bit like a rubber band pulled to its limits which not only snaps back but travels further backwards.

      When I’m truly ready for a change I often don’t feel at all ready for it. While when I feel ready for it, I’m usually not really ready for it, more has to happen first… such as me giving up on wanting a change, and accepting things as they are – this particular state of being, when genuinely achieved, seems to signal the change, giving it the go-ahead. That moment you genuinely let go of wanting something, is often the moment that the something you used to want comes to you. It’s as though desiring it blocks it, and no longer desiring it removes the blockage between you and it. Perhaps it’s because by wanting and desiring it you hold onto the wish, and it can’t go out and fulfill itself until you let go of it, release it.

      Speedwise I would say that a true change to the inner system is neither too slow nor too quick. It may feel sudden, out of the blue, as though its all happening all at once and it’s all too much too soon, or too little too late, finally the rain coming in a downpour after an prolongued heatwave.

      In retrospect I often view the changes as having been long overdue. If only the change had happened sooner. If only I’d know then what I know now, if only I’d done then what I would do now, if only I hadn’t been so stubborn, so combative, so resistant, so convinced that …. (fill in the blank). BUT this ‘now’ will at some point become a ‘then’ to another ‘now’.

      Are any of the inner changes which happen even real? Am I really healing or just more practiced at whistling a happy tune? Was I ever really wounded? Is healing perhaps about simply seeing our hallucinations as hallucinations?

      I wonder if sometime in a future now I’ll look back at this time and this version of me and say something along the lines of – If only I hadn’t asked questions.

      The segment of my post which you highlighted is a bit which stood out for me too. It’s what I would describe as a sore thumb in plain view. When I write a post, those ‘sore thumbs’ are what I’m looking out for the most in my rambling blurbs.

      This – if you read me but don’t want anyone to know you do that kind of thing – is based on something someone said to me awhile ago which stuck with me because it linked to something else of a similar ilk in the matrix of my psyche. It’s part of a puzzle I’ve been trying to solve for a long time. It can be seen in natal Pluto/Sun/Saturn in aspect, and it is also connected to the untenanted houses, at least that’s what I’m thinking about it atm. Transiting Jupiter in Scorpio is stirring it up.

      It is both unnerving and gratifying how perceptive you are. Thank you very much for your feedback, it is much appreciated!


      • Thank you for a really great detailed reply, I was able to understand more about how change comes about in someone else. I also found this part “That moment you genuinely let go of wanting something, is often the moment that the something you used to want comes to you. It’s as though desiring it blocks it, and no longer desiring it removes the blockage between you and it. Perhaps it’s because by wanting and desiring it you hold onto the wish, and it can’t go out and fulfill itself until you let go of it, release it ” so worthy of a lot more thought, strange how releasing a wish manifests itself into something close later on. So thanks for that too.


        • Thank you 🙂

          I noticed the other day that you’d changed your profile pic (I love the shot btw, I also loved the previous photo) – does it mean there’s change afoot with you?


          • Ha, now who,s being perceptive ? The only constant in the universe that doesn’t change is that everything does change.That’s part why I was so interested in how change affected you the slowness and fastness and whether it was possible to work things out logically in the mind to affect change or just wait until change its forced upon you. I always sensed in you a virtuous sense of loyalty that conflicted with the narcissism that you have been exposed to over a very long time. I never experienced anything like you have in my upbringing. So with me another failed relationship another change. Interestingly this latest failed relationship with a virgo female had all the hallmarks that I experienced with my ex wife of 20+ years also Virgo. Now help me out here but I struggled trying to figure out why they found me fun and exciting in the beginning but not later and I never changed in my two experiences of Virgo women they seem to me to be troubled by their emotions and unsure of what they needed or wanted.Maybe they saw something in me that they liked and wish they had perhaps I was just a breath of fresh air needed at the time.
            So hence th b/w image of scratching my head so things are now more settled and I will change to something that is more me today.
            ps I have had three compliments this year two were from you thank-you thank-you


            • Relationships are one of the most complex and complicated puzzles in life. It’s one of those puzzling problems which has had humans scratching their heads since time immemorial… and we still haven’t really figured anything out, but we have written many poems, songs, films, articles, books, etc, and created many theories and theoretical solutions, which often sound great in theory but in practice it may all go haywire.

              Part of the reason relationships are complex and complicated puzzles is because they’re a combination of at least two complex and complicated human beings and their own relationship with themselves which is often more complex and complicated than their relationships with others, and which influences how they relate to others.

              In the beginning of a relationship things can seem to flow so easily and be so simple. We meet someone we like and if they like us too, we feel good, they feel good, isn’t this fun, isn’t this exciting to have found a kindred spirit! lets’ be like this forever!!

              Then familiarity sets in, everything which was new and exciting isn’t as new and exciting anymore. The endorphins don’t get released so easily. The high highs aren’t as simple to get. And with familiarity ‘normal’ returns – we return to normal. All those issues and problematic knots from which we and the other person had taken a break begin to make their presence felt and remind us that we didn’t solve them just by meeting someone new.

              Slowly all those things we loved about this new person and which made us feel a rush of delight and excitement become things we’re not so sure we love anymore.

              What attracted us seems to be becoming what repels us. If we loved someone’s spontaneity… we may come to see that same spontaneity as irresponsibility. If we loved someone’s easygoingness… we may come to see their easygoingness as lazyness, or a lack of caring = they can be easygoing because they just don’t give a toss about anything or anyone. If we loved that they were a good listener and were always asking us about ourselves… we may come to realise that they never share anything about themselves, and how we perceive their asking questions and listening to our answers will shift from them wanting to know about us to them not wanting us to know about them.

              In astrological words – What we love about a particular sign may over time also be what we don’t love about that sign. A Cancerian’s sensitivity can become a source of irritation as much as it can be a source of soothing. A Virgo’s analytical ability may be great when you have a problem to solve, but not so great when you don’t have a problem to solve but they’re still in problem finding and solving mode. A Piscean’s ethereal approach to life and living may be wonderfully relaxing until your toilet overflows or your car breaks down in the middle of nowhere. A Taurean’s stability may be a rock to cling to in rough seas which never wavers, but if you actually want to be swept away by a change then their immovable object status will become a mountain which ain’t moving for no one.

              What once attracted and then repelled may once again become what attracts… maybe to someone else, in which case the rigmarole begins again. If it is to the same person, then a shift to a deeper understanding may occur… both of ourselves and of others.

              What would you say you look for in relationships? And what is it about Virgo which appeals to you?


              • First of all thank you for your great reply everything that you wrote made so much sense. A lot of my thoughts are superficial, your thoughts, put into your words take my thinking to a much clearer logical sense. I know you do not like being praised but feedback is important from my/our perspective to let you know just how much your time and thoughts are appreciated. They are you know.
                In my relationships physical appearance or behaviour starts things off. It can be the smallest part of a person that catches my eye. And within moments that will person will know what it is, because the words just fly out of my mouth before I can stop myself saying what I see that I think is nice or alluring. I just like to try and make people feel good about themselves. It’s not an act it’s not done to impress or make me look good it’s just what I see. Similarly you have that talent with thoughts and words you are able to figure things out really cleverly and put things into perspective making things easy to understand. Which is what we need.
                I hardly ever think now I,ll talk with her and see if i can take things further its not like that. For some bizarre reason its me who is chosen I think to enter into a person’s life because I offer something they need at a particular time. I really look for loyalty as being then number one attraction but thats in short supply because loyal people are being just that with someone else and so are not so much available.
                Virgo men I really get along with well. Virgo women only known two so my experience is limited. From all that I have read astrologically about Virgo women most of it never applied to my two experiences. Loyalty both were unfaithful. Clean and tidy but no more than any other. Helping others before themselves not true. Problem solving again no more than any other women. Women have far greater intuition than men and see things we do not so again never experienced that. Critical and observant yes both were but I never found that annoying found it more helpful than anything. What I found intriguing with my times was their emotions being kept in check. In the beginning free flowing emotional availability then over time emotions held back almost to say as if I’ve opened up to you once before there is no need to repeat it again.
                Astrology aside, I favour your reply as being more accurate.Astrology to me just answers questions as to why a person behaves in a way that either you do not or cannot understand, that is if a mismatch is taking place.
                Thanks again for taking the time to reply. Some of the questions or posts being put to you just lately take my breath away !!!!


                • Thank you very much 🙂

                  Btw, you can compliment me if you want to. This – “I know you do not like being praised” – is true, but also no longer true in the way that it used to be. I’ve shifted myself out of the place I was in before about that. I no longer need to be awkward about it and cause awkwardness for others because of my awkward. What I still don’t like is when people praise you because they feel they have to as part of social interaction. Genuine and spontaneous praise which someone wants to give because they want to give it and that’s that, is always appreciated.

                  I agree that feedback is valuable, and I do love feedback, when someone shares their perspective.

                  I wouldn’t want anyone to feel censored due to my likes and dislikes, issues and awkwardness. I prefer it when people say what they want to say rather than alter their words to cater to me. I can usually tell when someone is doing that as it brings a stiffness to the flow of an interaction.

                  Say what you want to say. You have Mercury in Aries, right? 🙂

                  What you said about loyalty is interesting.

                  You mentioned loyalty in your previous comment too, you said: “I always sensed in you a virtuous sense of loyalty that conflicted with the narcissism that you have been exposed to over a very long time.”

                  My parents demanded loyalty from those around them, it was a big issue for them – people had to be willing to die for them, fight their battles for them until the bitter end, stand by them through thick and thin and multiple betrayals on their part, etc. Most narcissists will expect loyalty from others, only the narcissists themselves are allowed to be disloyal, however their disloyalty is often not perceived as disloyalty by them. My mother was certain that she was loyal to a fault, even when she was stabbing her ‘loved’ ones in the back or selling them out to save herself. She would regularly throw me under a bus, then tell me how that was done for my own sake, I owed her for it, or she’d tell me that it was a misunderstanding, or a mistake which couldn’t be helped, poor her, someone else had made her do it, I must help her, I owed her. My father was a bit more savvy about his own tendencies – when he threw me under a bus, he’d just smile and wink and tell me that I shouldn’t have been so stupid as to trust him.

                  Loyalty is a part of the narcissistic abuse experience. Narcissists are often the most vocal about it, and sell it as must for others to have towards them. “Chi mi ama mi segua.” – Those who love me follow me.

                  Loyalty is very similar to the concept of respect. It is very subjective. One person’s version of loyalty, may not be the same as another’s.

                  Someone who is unfaithful may demand that others are faithful without necessarily noticing the problem. A cheating husband may still view himself as being loyal to his wife – the cheating was physical not emotional, emotionally he is loyal to his wife. A cheating wife may blame her husband for why she cheated on him – he abandoned her first, he wasn’t there for her when she needed emotional support.

                  The Korean drama – Listen to Love (This Week My Wife Will Have an Affair) – has many interesting scenes where the matter of loyalty/faithfulness is explored. In one scene the wife after her affair has been exposed, accuses her husband of having an affair first. He didn’t, but he ends up questioning whether perhaps he did and doesn’t remember it, which leads him to realise that loyalty and faithfulness is far more complex than he’d previously thought of it.

                  If confronted someone who is being disloyal/unfaithful might say something like – you knew who I was from the start – in other words they’re loyal and faithful to their identity and their identity includes being disloyal/unfaithful. In their view the other person knew this about them and still signed a relationship contract. If the other person breaks the contract with them because of disloyalty and unfaithfulness… it’s actually the other person who is disloyal/unfaithful because – you knew who I was from the start – and accepted it.

                  The concept of loyalty, like respect, is prone to – one rule for you and another rule for me.

                  It is grown and earned over time.

                  It involves perseverance.

                  It reflects a person’s relationship with themselves first and foremost.

                  Those who are disloyal to others may be being loyal to themselves. Those who are loyal to others may be being loyal to their principles. Those in relationships with narcissists may have to be disloyal to themselves to be loyal to the narcissist.

                  What do you think?


                  • Ahhh you have now opened the door to admiration, so glad I can now freely say how much I enjoy your thoughts that you somehow always manage to express into words your such a way out thinker that really appeals to me. I had to look at my natal chart to see where my mercury was placed and yes there it is in Aries how you figured that out from what little I say is quite amazing but then knowing you I,m not surprised.
                    So these are my Mercury planets from my Natal chart. Most of the interpretations I can resonate with. Not mentioned is that I listen more than I speak.
                    Mercury in Aries.You have a sharp tongue and a quick wit. You speak first, then think about it.
                    Mercury Conjunct Mars
                    You are a very forceful speaker and communicate with great enthusiasm. Words just flow out and are always followed by an emotional impact that brings them home to your listeners. You have no trouble putting your feelings into words; in fact, you may have to exercise some control over your tongue, for you are quick to say things and everything you communicate packs a wallop. Things you say mean a lot. You have a great mental drive and lavish great energy on mental pursuits of all kinds. Ideas, words, books, and the like are pursued with great gusto.
                    Mercury Opposite Neptune
                    You have more than just the gift of gab. Your words and ideas can transport and enchant listeners, carrying them beyond the world as they know it into the world as they wish it could be. Your imagination and sense of what connects all of life is felt in your speech and in the way you communicate. You love a good story, and a sense of the mystical pervades every one you tell. You are at home in the world of myths and dreams, for your mind soars on wings of the imagination.
                    Mercury Trine Pluto
                    When it comes to mental work, you have a perfect gift for research and investigation. You enjoy examining and analyzing, in particular when it comes to psychological and sensitive areas of the mind. Your ability to sift through the dross and come up with what is essential every time is exceptional. You like to discuss and communicate, again always at a psychological and very personal level. Others may find you intense.
                    So thats me exposed!!!! – now to you,
                    Many of your followers admire your way of universal open mind thinking I even think that there is some science attached to it as well. The piece you just wrote on loyalty would have taken me days and days of research I was even getting scared reading through it thinking oh s***t I have narcissistic tendencies but then I understood your overall explanation of loyalty. ( phew!) The part of knowing where we stand at the beginning is so true and often overlooked in some emotional bias.
                    Going back to praise, I wondered if you had or have a blind spot in your own feelings as to your ability to overlook something that you are really good at ? I read book after book on personal development, mental health physiology etc. Some are good some disappointing in your posts I can always count on them as such a varied mixture of your own personal experiences and interpretations of something you have come across. I think I have said before sometimes I read them two or three times.
                    Thanks so much for you views they always make a difference to me.


                    • Thank you very much 🙂

                      I have noticed that you can be reticent to share information about yourself (and yet at the same time you share of yourself deeply, warmly, and personally). I don’t know if that is how you are normally (as in offline, in person) or if it has to do with the fact that you and I interact via comments on my blog which is online and public. Anyway you shared some of your astro placements with me awhile ago, I remembered that you had and searched through your comments and you told me that you had Mercury in Aries.

                      Those with Mercury in Aries should if they can and will to do so, say what they want to say.

                      You said – “Not mentioned is that I listen more than I speak.” That you listen more than you speak may be shown in another part of your chart, or it could be seen as an element of Neptune opp Mercury. This bit – “Your imagination and sense of what connects all of life is felt in your speech and in the way you communicate.” – could be interpreted as your listening more than you speak is how you communicate your sense of what connects all of life. Listening is a way of speaking/communicating too. It’s an active aspect of speaking and communicating which may appear passive but isn’t, not when done the way that you do it.

                      Your ability to be a good listener could also be part of Merc trine Pluto. You understand the power of listening.

                      In other words – part of the art of speaking is the art of listening.

                      This made me chuckle – “I was even getting scared reading through it thinking oh s***t I have narcissistic tendencies” – and also feel a bit bad that something I said caused that reaction. I can be a bit too INTP-ish when I get into a subject. It’s worth keeping in mind that all humans have narcissistic tendencies, they’re healthy, useful, and necessary. Narcissistic tendencies are a bit like an astrological placement – they have a good side, a bad side and a neutral middle. It’s more about what we do with our tendencies and where they lead us, rather than whether we have them or not. You, Sir, could never be a narcissist even if you decided that you wanted to be one 🙂


                    • And thanks
                      This is how it works for me…when I meet up with a person (strangers included) I find they love to talk about themselves, what they’ve done what they are going to do etc etc I do have a very high boredom threshold and unless they are boring me I just listen and listen and in some way it is empowering me because I say very little back. I would love to be able to share as you do on your blog your ways of communicating I envy you so much. Your replies to comments make me think how did you think of that. The replies are always broken down in an easy logical way. I have no idea what you are tuned into but give me the frequency! For instance I have just read a book True confessions from both sides of the therapy couch the author is American and the confessions are from Americans I thought it would be a really great read but it was pretty crappy. Anyway the therapist making big bucks would drag the sessions out for years and didn’t seem to get to the root of the problems. I remember thinking at the time that you would have knocked most of the problems out the ballpark in a flash. So, me I am just a clever listener the input massively exceed the output and it works well how about that for sharing something with you!!!
                      I found it interesting that you say all humans have narcissistic tendencies I could nt define that comment?
                      bon weekend a toi


                    • Merci beaucoup 🙂 I hope you had a lovely weekend – did you experience the ladybird swarms which have been happening across the country?

                      Actually I’m a lot like you when I’m with people, especially those I don’t know – I find it fascinating to hear people’s stories about themselves and their lives, there’s so much to learn and understand which can only be learned and understood by listening to others sharing their inner and outer worlds.

                      When I’m with people I tend to blank myself out (my mind goes silent and becomes an empty space), I focus on them and the surroundings (the context). I don’t tend to feel the need or the urge to talk about myself (as I can do that on my blog 😉 ). I am reserved, shy, in person – very Virgo rising, very Moon in Virgo in 12th conjunct Asc, very Pluto Rx in Virgo in the 1st. I do have Mars aspecting my ASC so sometimes I can be bold, aggressive, bossy, but it’s a Scorpio Mars – it mainly comes into play if someone is mistaking my reserved shyness for something it is not or if there’s a need to take charge.

                      What I do on my blog, my way of communicating, is more a reflection of how I am with/within myself – my posts are conversations I have with myself. I’ve spent my entire life talking with myself and having long conversations about stuff. It’s very Mercury in Aqua in the 5th, trine Jupiter/Uranus conjunct, squaring off and arguing/debating with Scorpio Mars in the 3rd. Gemini is on my MC. Mercury is my dominant planet. So all of that is at work in how I am online – that’s my frequency.

                      Sometimes when I write a post or answer a comment I am just channeling all the thoughts which are popping up in my mind as I think about something. In comments I will sometimes alter my style of communication depending on who I am talking to/with – that’s very Venus in Pisces.

                      There’s also quite a bit of NN/Chiron in the 7th going on. For instance, discussing loyalty with you helped me to explore the concept of loyalty – if it helps you too, then Chiron in the 7th is working = you help me, I help you, I help myself, you help yourself to figure things out 😀

                      One thing worth keeping in mind is – we tend to not appreciate our own abilities, style, etc, because we’re used to them (familiarity breeds contempt), we know the struggle which goes with them, we know the flip side of the facade – which is something we don’t necessarily see when looking at someone else. So when we admire/envy someone else, an ability, style, etc, of theirs we’re seeing one side of the facade, we see how it appears to us from our vantage point, perspective, we see the external results.

                      From my perspective you have a wonderful communication style.

                      The paradox with therapy is exactly what you logically analysed, noticed and pointed out – a therapist gets paid for each session, the more sessions they have with a patient = the more they get paid. The incentive to solve a patient’s problems is in conflict with the incentive to not solve the patient’s problem, not quickly anyway.

                      Of course it is a bit more complicated than that, this is a great read about that – https://academyofideas.com/2018/09/performing-therapy-on-yourself/ – and here’s the bit I linked you to the article:

                      “But Horney did not deem self-analysis as merely a possibility, rather, in many cases she thought it to be more desirable than traditional therapy. The therapist always begins as a stranger who requires months if not years of analysis to learn of the inner workings, complexities, and depths of our mind. We, on the other hand, are intimately familiar with ourselves. Given the right attitude, we can, therefore, explore and expose the elements of our unconscious wrecking havoc on our life more efficiently than a trained therapist. Furthermore, self-analysis has the added benefit that it can increase our strength and confidence to a greater degree than traditional therapy. Just as traversing a difficult mountain path on our own grants us a greater feeling of accomplishment than following a guide…”

                      This is also an interesting and insightful blog written by a professional therapist, showing therapy from the perspective of a therapist who points out many of the issues in helping others with their issues – http://www.thegoodtherapists.com/

                      re: all humans have narcissistic tendencies. This is an article I included in my recent series – https://psychcentral.com/lib/narcissistic-personality-disorder-vs-normal-narcissism/ – and a quick excerpt from that:

                      “That quick check in the mirror is normal, healthy narcissism. Feeling good about oneself, talking about it, even bragging now and then, isn’t pathological. Indeed, it is essential to a positive self-esteem. As comedian Will Rogers once said, “It ain’t bragging if it’s true.””

                      Let me know what you think 🙂


                    • Thank-you, what a brilliant reply so many interesting comments. Lots and lots to think about for the last few days. 1st I have lost my south facing kitchen to the ladybirds. So many have been evicted thanks to my vacuum that blows air as well as suction. Currently have a colony huddled up in the corner of the window now its been reported that they are std carrying insects I have no idea how that could transfer to humans, still it might save some embarrassment to those visiting their local std clinic caught it of a lady bird honest ha ha.
                      Seriously, I must have some very similar planet placements to you your description of how you are or appear to others is identical to me. That makes me feel reassured knowing that I just might not be so alone in my ways after all. Similarly with your internal dialogue, I can remember when I was around 10 years old sitting on a beach in Skegness on one of our family holidays I said to myself I just want to think about things more than I want to talk about things. I am happier with my thoughts than speaking them. Maybe I have some astrological block that prevents me from relating thoughts that’s why I admire your thoughts and your ability to put them into words I wonder if you know what a blessing that is? I do appreciate how I am but still I am envious. I could imagine someone meeting with you in many a situation albeit casually or formally and them taking your quietness or reserved disposition as just being shy but never knowing or even bothering to find out your unlimited thoughts. Then maybe you prefer it that way ?
                      I loved that piece you wrote about self analysis so true but for many it’s not possible, a person’s mind can be so biased without someone to challenge their way of destructive thinking. To some just to be pointed to that mountain path with all its benefits will suffice some need to be helped along the way.( That where you come in )
                      Thanks for the links in your reply I will catch up with them at the weekend I am so far behind in catching up on your blogs I quickly read through the latest and had something to say but had to reply to this first. Happy days to you


                    • You said: “Maybe I have some astrological block that prevents me from relating thoughts that’s why I admire your thoughts and your ability to put them into words I wonder if you know what a blessing that is? I do appreciate how I am but still I am envious.”

                      What you’re envious of is something which took me a lifetime to learn how to do. My ability to put my thoughts into words isn’t something I was born with, have always done and done easily, and have had all my life – I had to give birth to it and it was a long struggle and painful process. I tend and care for it, growing it and growing with it.

                      Do I know what a blessing it is? To finally be released from being trapped/imprisoned in the bowels of the Chateau D’If, feeling as though I was dying every day and yet still alive, unable to speak, unheard when I did speak, misunderstood when I was heard. Every time I tried to escape, I’d be punished and I’d crawl back into my cell for safety and sanctuary and yet that safety and sanctuary was torture.

                      I read a wonderful blog post today wherein the author shared their own journey in finding their own ‘voice’, in unblocking themselves after they’d blocked themselves, and I related with quite a bit of what she said – https://kingofstates.com/2018/10/11/gotta-have-some-faith-in-the-sound/ – except I grew up in an environment, with parents, who deliberately, consistently and constantly blocked my ‘voice’. Sometimes they ‘stole’ my voice and did that because they were envious and wanted to have it for themselves. If they couldn’t have it then I couldn’t have it either.

                      Just like you I had a block which prevented me from relating my thoughts – that block was made up of many smaller blocks, each one looked and felt massive to me. I didn’t think I’d ever be able to break through.

                      I did look into the astrology of it, and did find it there. The block, for me, is spread out. In other words each smaller block which makes up the block is a different part of my natal chart. So to unblock myself I had to deal with each smaller block and those smaller blocks were determined to remain as blocks.

                      Look at your Saturn – Saturn is associated with restrictions = blocks. Look at the sign, house, and aspects. Look at it also by transit to your chart. Saturn restricts to test your mettle. It restricts to teach you how to tame yourself – it teaches self-mastery. It restricts to get you to own your shit – when you own it, it releases you from the restrictions.

                      With astrology you also have to look at transits – the ‘mid-life crisis’ transits to my chart was a time of turmoil and release from turmoil, when I took the plunge into blogging which scared me (and still sometimes scares me), and did this:

                      “There is nothing to writing. All you do is sit down at a typewriter and bleed.” ― Ernest Hemingway

                      There is nothing to my communication style, all I do is sit down at my keyboard and bleed. My communication style is me bleeding me, which includes all the blood, sweat, tears, pain, and struggles it took and still takes to think as I do and put that down in writing and share it.

                      I regularly have to resist the urge to delete my blog and stop blogging, stop communicating. It’s less intense these days, but it still rears up – it reared up about a week ago and I did almost hit delete on this blog.

                      You might also find it interesting you check out an alternative astrology-ish system like this – https://jovianarchive.com/ – it’s a bit wackadoodle especially if you listen to the video wherein its creator explains the ‘origin’ story of the system.

                      One of the bits I found worth considering is the types (I’m a generator) and the concept of ‘waiting to respond’, this gives a detailed overview of that – http://humandesign.net/basic-concepts.html

                      Another bit was the profiles. I’m a 3/5 which is usually called martyr/heretic but I think mistake-making mess is a more precise name. This is a quick description of that – http://loveyourhumandesign.com/2010/01/22/profile-3-5-experiment-and-project-the-way/

                      One of the things I’ve noticed about ‘envy’ and being ‘envious’ is that it’s often connected to a part inside of us which wants to try something out but we’re not letting ourselves do it due to a fear. It becomes safer to envy than to try something out especially if that fear keeps whispering – what if you fail, what if you’re not as good as you want to be, what if you can’t do it the way the person you envy is doing it…

                      Q: Do you know how blessed you are to be yourself, to think the way you think, and do things the way you do them?


                    • Re; Do I know what a blessing that is?
                      So now I know it’s not so much a blessing handed on a plate to you. Your explanation of your escape from your sometimes forced internal isolation is really quite remarkable. It now makes me wonder if it’s possible for others to make such a journey such as yours whether it’s via astrology or by other means of finding keys to unlock doors in the mind leading to undiscovered mental powers. Et voila mental clarity!
                      My Saturn was in Virgo 28d right at the end of the 3rd house.
                      53% of my dominate elements are fire signs, 26% Earth, 14% air, 6% water
                      There is something quite special to your blogging style, I and others will attest to that. It is always evolving and never boring. I am glad it helps you, equally so it helps us too. I can be quite lazy in finding things of interest out, however thanks to the links that you always provide makes my online time much more interesting. Oh put a drawing pin on your delete button to stop you deleting anything about your blogs good or bad we can figure it out. Sometimes I can detect your mood.
                      I am ok with myself always have been. I think I can envy it seems much easier I kinda think wish I could be like this or that probably could if I tried. One very important thing that is prevalent in all your replies not only to me but to others too is that you’re never critical to the respondent? Always supportive I like that immensely.
                      Thanks for taking the time to reply and sharing your experience that you suffered for so much for so long. Such a sad time for you sorry to hear that you had to endure that. I won’t forget how you overcame that experience.
                      Bon weekend !!


                    • This is an interesting read and interpretation of Saturn in the 3rd – http://astrolocherry.com/post/125838119655/saturn-in-the-3rd-house-alphabet-alchemy-in-my

                      The 3rd house is the house of communication, and therefore is one of the areas of a natal chart used to understand communication style as well as thinking processes, which includes how you experience your own ability to communicate, to be communicative, to be communicated with, what you like and what you don’t like in conversation/communication, etc, and how you think, how you think you think, etc.

                      The best way, imo, to use astrology is to focus on one part of your chart and slowly expand from there. Read up on Saturn, then Saturn in Virgo, then Saturn in the 3rd house, then look at aspects from Saturn to other planets/placements, read up on that particular aspect, then check out the planet it aspects, the sign it is in, the house it is in, etc.

                      Also worth exploring is the sign opposite the placement you’re researching – for Virgo that is Pisces. With Saturn we often try to ‘escape’ from its restrictions into the sign opposite our natal Saturn’s sign.

                      We may also admire/envy those who are expressing the sign which our natal Saturn is in. We may be attracted to people who appear to us to be doing the sign. You’ve been attracted to two Virgo’s in your close relationships – you may have eventually felt ‘restricted’ by their Virgo-ness, or they may have ended up acting out the Pisces side of the Pisces/Virgo axis which might have increased your Virgo Saturn experience for you. We may seek out consciously and subconsciously those who seem to be dealing with the challenges of our Saturn placement. I have Virgo rising/ascendant, Virgo Moon, Virgo Pluto in the 1st.

                      My moods are very obvious as I have Moon conjunct Ascendant = I wear my heart on my sleeve, but people often read my moods wrong because I have Moon conjunct Ascendant and the Moon is a mirror which reflects the light of the Sun (ego) of others.


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