About

Hi.

I’m Ursula.

That’s a nickname someone gave me because I reminded them of a bear, mostly because I can sleep anywhere, and when I am asleep I look like I’m hibernating… don’t try to wake me up even if it is for my own good or you’ll find out the other reasons why I received this nickname. But don’t worry, I don’t usually fall asleep on my blog.

(that’s me in the pic below… however my deviantart is no more)

.

.

Speaking of my blog… Welcome to my cyber home!

Here you will find the scribblings which erupt from me. I write in the style of my thinking – I’m a tangential thinker, which is apparently a disorder, luckily I’m not too keen on orders.

I talk this way too, when I can actually be bothered to talk. Translating my thoughts into verbal utterances is not always a good idea, at least that’s the impression I get from those who hear my words… then run away covering their ears, screaming… or maybe they’re singing.

I can be rather blunt. Sometimes I’m just odd (I am very weird and very crazy).

I’m an INTP… according to MBTI. I love exploring different ways of perceiving things, and people, and life.

You’ll find a mishmash of all sorts on here.

Conversations (often arguments) with myself, soul-searching, self-analysis, ghosts in the brain, astrology…

You can find my astrology chart here. I am a Capricorn Sun, but that’s not the part with which you need to be concerned (some people think all Capricorns are sociopaths), it’s Pluto and Uranus located in the 1st house which is far more disturbing. I call them Death Stares and Fruit Loops, which explains everything – you’ll either love me or hate me or both at the same time. The latter sums up how I feel about myself.

…psychology…

I am an ACoN – Adult Child of Narcissists. I’ve written about my experiences, some people relate to what I’ve expressed, others think that I don’t know what I’m talking about.

I often don’t know what I’m talking about either, confusion is a familiar destination for me. I have sexdaily, otherwise known as dyslexia. It affects more than just the ability to read and write, and causes those with it to develop some interesting skills (eg. I have to triple-check what I read and hear, and this can be useful for spotting lying liars who lie).

…rants, humour (at least I think it’s funny), musings, things which make me go hmmm, philosophy, dreams, memories, TV & Film, Video games, books, and a plethora of other things, sometimes fluffy, sometimes spiky, sometimes just odd (very weird and very crazy).

Oh, and I make a lot of mistakes… I’m a mistake-making mess of a human (yes, I’m fairly certain I’m human), and it’s fun!

This is a very self-indulgent blog. It changes from time to time… it flows with me. I flow back-to-front, upside down, topsy turvy, and any which way except the way that I’m supposed to go.

Thank you for visiting, and may your journey through life take you on many wonderful adventures!

408 comments

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      I’ve noticed that Kim Saeed of – http://letmereach.com/ – promotes your system and web seminars. I’m sharing your comment and link in case others are interested in exploring your methods.

      I would like to note that I prefer it when people a less blatant about self promotion in the comments on my blog as this is a personal blog.

      Like

      Reply

  2. I am an adult child of a narcissist, 50 years old, just discovered my mother is a narcissist within the last three months. Struggling with that. Looking, looking, looking for answers… Relationship between being violated or molested as a child and growing up narcissistic as a defense?

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      There is a lot of information online for ACoNs (Adult Children of Narcissists). You are not alone, and many people are struggling with discovering that one or both of their parents is a narcissist. This often happens later in life because that’s when we often review things and pieces of our life puzzle fall into place.

      There tends to be more information resources for those who are children of narcissists…

      Such as these:

      http://www.narcissisticmother.com/

      https://theinvisiblescar.wordpress.com/2013/04/14/surviving-the-narcissistic-parent-acons-adult-children-of-narcissists/

      Or about the disorder from the angle of those who have been in a relationship with a narcissist…

      Like this:

      http://outofthefog.net/Disorders/NPD.html

      Than there is about narcissists and how they developed their disorder.

      The best article which I have read about Narcissism and NPD is this one – http://www.energeticsinstitute.com.au/page/narcissism.html

      Narcissistic Personality Disorder is still being investigated, researched and studied by professionals, and the exact causes are as yet undetermined, although many theories exist, but many agree that early trauma/abuse is a significant factor in certain types of NPD.

      Sexual abuse at an early age is a factor in many disorders which may also have narcissistic tendencies as a part of the disorder, but may not necessarily result in NPD.

      This is an informative article about Child Sexual Abuse, it’s consequences and implications – http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/731970

      Sometimes those who we experience as being narcissists (who may be narcissistic towards us), do not have Narcissistic Personality Disorder but may have something else which is being masked by their narcissistic behaviour.

      Ideally a professional assessment and diagnosis would be needed to determine the matter, but this is not always possible especially when trying to find out information about someone else’s condition.

      You might find this forum useful, it’s for children of narcissists and many issues connected with this are discussed there – http://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/

      Best wishes!

      Like

      Reply

  3. Please let me know your thoughts…is my ‘friend’ a narcissist or not? I am sure I am a great ‘host’ for a narcissist. Mother. Boyfriends. Co-worker – they found me and used me, but I’ve triumphed by breaking free in many cases – but scars and blinders for narcissists still plagues me at times. I’m in my forties, my friend is in her forties. Been friends for six years, with some ‘separations’. The friend is extremely jealous of any other friendship that I have. She will take the smallest thing and turn it into a big deal, saying that I’ve hurt her, and I ‘need’ to understand what I’ve done wrong to her when I spend time with anyone else. She denies that she does it, and makes excuses. With one friend, she would say the person didn’t respect me, and convinced me of it, until that target was no longer a friend. With another, she had a bad feeling, and was personally hurt anytime I spent time with the other friend – driving by during a book study to see where I was – engaging in circular conversations designed to make me prove that I couldn’t like any friend more than her. Crying that I’ve hurt her if I take time to help someone else. Making me late for a marriage counseling appointment with one of her issues. Anytime there is something that I am looking forward to that doesn’t include her, she has a crisis involving insecurity about our friendship. She lavishes me with inappropriate gifts, despite my please to refrain. Sadly, I have indulged her, appeased her, eased her mind – not understanding what was going on, and wishing to ease the latest crisis so I could have peace. But, I couldn’t live my life as I wanted, because her silent treatment, cold shoulder, and tears loomed large. I caved over and over. I started to see this total obsession with me was spiraling out of control – with a great need for me not to enjoy anyone other than her – especially after she moved out of the neighborhood. If I spent time with anyone, it was a personal attack, and I should have known how I was making her feel. I started to get a sick feeling about it and finally refused to ‘justify’ spending time with another friend. She is sorry and will try hard to accept. I am done. What is going on? Narcissist? In love with me? I didn’t see this coming from a ‘friend’. She often seems like she is trying to be ‘me’. Dresses like me, does things I do – only tries to ‘outperform’ me in front of others. I don’t care – but I do see it. It’s like she wants to be the better version of me so I can aspire to be as good as her, but I’ve always ignored it. Now, I want a clean break. No turning back. Nervous about the bad behavior that will be thrown at me and my family. Could use some insight. Thanks

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      From what you have related, this friend of yours does sound like a narcissist. She may be a ‘covert’ narcissist, also known as a vulnerable, passive-aggressive, or sensitive narcissist. But I think you know that already, you’re just hoping she’s not.

      Always trust yourself, your instincts and intuition. If you find yourself doubting yourself, figure out what the doubt is really about – it’s often due to not wanting to accept what we know. So it’s a hopeful version of doubt.

      You might find this article of interest – http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/5-signs-youre-being-played-by-a-victim-fiff/

      If your mother is a narcissist, then you may attract or be attracted to female friends who are narcissists too. You may find yourself giving female friends more room to take over in the relationship simply due to there being a certain child/mother dynamic going on. It’s difficult sometimes to break the patterns and conditioning of our childhood. A mother is the first female we learn to relate to, and we may play out the story we had with our mother with other females in our life.

      Narcissists often get ‘crushes’ on friends. It’s usually not sexual, although there can be undertones of that. It’s more along the lines of the relationships shown in films like Single White Female or The Talented Mr. Ripley. They want to become the person they have the ‘crush’ on. So if, as you said, you feel that she wants to become you – that’s what is going on. You represent to her who she wants to be in some shape or form. Much of how she sees you will be her own idealisations of who you are seen through her eyes, and her disorder.

      This is quite an interesting news story about that sort of experience – http://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/the-mystery-of-leah-palmer

      Achieving a ‘clean break’ from a narcissist can be difficult, for the reasons which you’ve pointed out. If you break it off, your friend will probably go all out to force you to un-break-it-off. Narcissists do not like to be dumped, discarded, abandoned. It brings out the worst in them and whatever tactics they usually use to manipulate will be used with added oomph. The drama goes into overdrive.

      How to do it depends very much on where you are on the pain/pleasure threshold. If you can’t stand one more second of her presence in your life, and have reached the I-don’t-give-a-bleep stage then severing the connection suddenly is quite satisfying, and putting up with her refusing to accept the end of the friendship with you can be an affirmation that you decided to do the right thing. However if you would rather avoid added drama from her (which is sometimes what keeps us in the relationship and at their beck and call), then perhaps going the route of encouraging her to dump/discard you is more of the way to go.

      You mentioned that the relationship has been on/off. I’m guessing most of the ‘off’ is due to her and how narcissists often behave. If that is the case then using your experience of what makes her go away and leave you alone might be of use. If you can get her to end the friendship, even if you know she’ll return at some point (which at least it will give you some breathing room to work on a way to keep her away more permanently), then she’s less likely to hound you because she’s the one doing the discarding.

      It’s usually less dramatic overall if you can convince the narcissist to end the relationship.

      This is an interesting article about how to talk/negotiate with a narcissist – http://www.psytalk.info/articles/narcissist.html

      Narcissists need drama, they can create it out of thin air and often do, so trying to avoid any drama when dealing with a narcissist is a tactic which will either keep you their captive or backfire on you. Sometimes you just have to accept that they’re going to turn everything into a drama, and prepare yourself to ride it out. Just remember that it is all about them and not about you.

      Be sure to have a support system if you can, if you’re in it alone, then be your own support system.

      You might find this blog worth perusing – http://letmereach.com/2015/05/18/breaking-your-addiction-to-the-narcissist-the-betty-ford-approach-2/ – it mainly discusses romantic relationships with narcissists, but much of what is written applies to friendships with narcissists too.

      Trust yourself, and take good care of yourself!

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

  4. Thank you for this much needed advice. I am going to dive into the articles. One of the ways that she was able to ‘reel’ me in was by telling me things that made it look like she was protecting me from ‘friends’ that she didn’t trust. She also carried it through to my daughter, who was the same age as her daughter – eventually causing my child to be alienated from friends. But, she tried to make it look like her child was the one who ‘wanted’ to keep my daughter in the circle, despite all the other kids wanting to exclude my daughter. I think maybe she was lying to me about my relationships to keep me from liking other friends. The thing is, I never, ever suspected her of lying. She was able to use some truth to plant seeds. She feels like part of her is ‘missing’ when I’m not in her life, but she is also very quick to give me the cold shoulder when she ‘feels’ offended. She acts entitled to know my exact feelings toward other friends, and then challenges me if what I say doesn’t link up with her perception. She seems to believe that she knows what I think better than I do, and is totally out of touch with the concept that maybe she is wrong. I believe she has intentionally befriended an acquaintance of mine just to keep tabs on me, by asking me questions to see if they line up with what she is getting from the other person. It’s like she is escalating and unable to see that she is way beyond normal behavior, by treating me like I’m displacing her and trying to make me prove that I value her the most. I prefer the quick sever, by means of just repeating over and over that I’m unavailable. I recently called her out in a way that I never have before. She knows that she has pushed me too far, and for a time is probably afraid to cross me. I know that caught her off guard, because I usually fall for her tactics. But, my eyes were opened and I’m just done. I don’t feel any need to explain myself or listen to anything. I will not argue, because I don’t want to. I want to keep wishing her well, and leave it be. Will she try and poison my other relationships? Is that maybe what was happening all along? OK, moving on to read your links now. Looking forward to more of your insight. Thank you.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    • Thank you 🙂

      When you have a narcissist who sees themselves as your ‘friend’ and ‘ally’, then it’s par for the course for them to attempt to isolate you from all the ‘bad’ people out there for many reasons.

      The most pressing reason is often that they see bad people people everywhere, surrounding the ‘good’ person that the see themselves as being (and anyone in their immediate circle becomes a part of their ‘good’ until they decide that you’re not). They bitch, whine, moan, tell stories, create dramas, spread gossip and rumours, until you believe them, until you buy into their version of everything and everyone.

      The moment you buy into their version of reality… their version of reality can have a habit of changing. They have a tendency to swap sides. Leaving you on the side they once inhabited, while they team up with the opposite side against you. Don’t try and figure this change out, it never makes sense to anyone but them.

      My mother was always doing this. She was the damsel in endless distress, looking for heroes to save her from some dragon, take her side, believe her tale, fight her dragon, but the moment someone tried to save her, the hero would suddenly turn into a dragon, and the previous dragon sometimes became the hero.

      Narcissists have constantly shifting allegiances.

      If they have a child or children, the child or children will be used as they need to use them. Their child or children are extensions of the narcissist and the narcissist owns them.

      The only person who is never the ‘bad’ guy or the dragon, who is always the hero in their stories and dramas, their epic sagas, is the narcissist. They always see themselves as the hero/victim and everyone else has interchangeable roles. However, they are the real dragon and villain. They just never see that. They can’t see it.

      So, poisoning you and your child against others is part of a narcissist’s MO. Chances are this was being done to others too. They tend to triangulate and pit everyone against each other. It’s not usually deliberate, but it can be, it’s just what they do because it’s how they experience reality and people.

      Best article on narcissist and narcissism which I have ever read is this one – http://www.energeticsinstitute.com.au/page/narcissism.html – it exposes the behind-the-scenes, and explains it.

      When narcissists ‘try to poison’ our relationships, they’re not doing this for us or others, they do it for themselves, they’re sharing their wound. No one can be trusted, because they project themselves into and onto everyone. It’s all about them.

      Takes a while to fully understand, and it can be very confusing.

      This is a good resource too – http://outofthefog.net/Disorders/NPD.html

      And this is an interesting read – http://www.arachnoid.com/psychology/narcissism_revisited.html

      Whatever you do to severe the ties, there’s bound to be some drama on her end of things. If she’s a Covert narcissist she may pull out all the ‘victim’ stops – including claiming that she has other disorders except NPD, and you’re being cruel and not being understanding. Just stay strong and trust yourself, the shortest route to end it is the one which sometimes requires that you accept being the ‘villain’ in the story of the narcissist. Being the ‘hero’ in the story of the narcissist comes at a very high price.

      You know a lot about her, and how she operates – use it to help yourself.

      Stay strong and do what you have to do to protect yourself and your family. Trust yourself!

      Best wishes!

      Everything you have described is typical of narcissists. It’s always about them, what they feel, think, believe, etc. There is no middle ground. You’re either with them or against them. They do not do logic, reason, or accept anyone else’s view but their own. Their own view has a tendency to change but the pattern of it doesn’t. It’s all about them, not you or anyone else.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

      • This is very true. I published a post in which I quoted a letter that a friend had received from a Second Life narcissist regarding a drama she created in Virtual Reality. It takes me time to fully process events. I have dissociative identity disorder. It didn’t hit me until a few minutes ago that this SL narcissist essentially brags that she told off my female ‘protector’ alter as well as an alter that manages my Flickr account.

        My first response was the one I always form when people describe interacting with my alters. I see these as interactions with other people.

        I thought, wait a minute, she’s bragging to someone that she ‘spoke her mind” to different parts of my mind as if these parts are distinct.

        Wow! She is so narcissistic that she even needs to be superior to people who don’t exist except as a pathological response to triggers.

        Like

        Reply

        • Thank you 🙂

          That’s a brilliant insight!

          One of the consistent experiences I had growing up with narcissists was the impression that I was a figment of their imagination. I was never really sure if I actually existed or not, and if I did which me was the real me because who I was for them changed all the time.

          The only way I gathered any sense of being real was by talking to myself in the mirror, and actually having the kind of eye contact which saw me. My parent’s eyes never saw me.

          Narcissists don’t see you, they see who they need you to be for them. You’re a blank wall onto which they project themselves. Others don’t exist, we’re extensions of them. You get given a role in their film, and your role changes according to whatever story is going on in their minds at the time and whoever they need you to be for them to be who they’ve decided they are in that moment.

          If they’re playing a hero, then you become a villain or a victim they are saving. If they’re playing the damsel in distress, you might be a hero, but at any moment you can be changed into a villain, or a dragon. It’s all make believe, and if they suddenly don’t need you POOF! you cease to exist.

          My mother used to call me everyday whenever she was away from me, not to talk with me and find out anything about me, but because she needed to talk at a person (who wasn’t really a person). I could put the phone down and walk away, then come back to it later and she’d still be talking as though someone was listening.

          They don’t need you to actually be real or exist, in fact it is better when you’re not real and don’t exist because your reality and existence gets in the way of their plans for you.

          One of the ways I recognise narcissists is when they tell me who I am, it has nothing to do with who I am, and I know that they’re not the least bit interested in finding out who I am. They’ve decided who I am, who they need for me to be, and that’s that. I can leave the body. As my child self would call it – It’s me but not me – that came out of a system I developed to figure out who the real me was out of all the other me’s who had been created for me.

          To a narcissist we’re all parts of their mind. When they change their mind, they change who we are. No one exists in this world other than them.

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply

          • You’ve described the reality of my childhood very well.

            The reason I have a female alter was that at one time my Mother ‘changed’ me into a girl.

            So from four to about the age of seven I was a “girl’…the female alter eventually evolved into a protector..

            As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, the biggest obstacle to successful recovery is gaining the skill to switch off all of the automatic assumptions and responses that were so crucial to my survival as a child.

            For me there are two.

            The first is the automatic assumption that I’m the one who is wrong.

            It is wrong for me to have my own opinions, or to make ‘judgements’ and to have my own boundaries.

            It was wrong for me to remove someone who was abusing my generosity from a virtual parcel that I pay for every month.

            2. The other assumption is that I must forgive everything and work to ‘understand’ my abuser.

            I had to ‘love’ my Mother regardless of what she did.

            But I don’t have to understand behaviors that seem wrong to me.

            I don’t have to understand selfish people and willful cruelty..

            I don’t have to understand anything at all.

            Like

            Reply

            • Thank you 🙂

              That’s an excellent observation about recovery.

              For me I had to learn to stop switching myself off when I was with other people – that’s what I did to put up with the insanity all around me. I just went blank. I used to leave my body and zone out, disconnect from my senses. Once I was alone it would all come flooding back, which was overwhelming.

              I still switch off around others, but now I’m faster to realise I’ve done that, and can turn myself back on. It can be quite useful, the coping mechanism needed an upgrade to the system to become constructive… it still has glitches.

              I think age makes a difference. I’m at the age my parents were when I was a child – That just occurred to me. I was actually going to say, when I turned 40 a different kind of flip switched, and I just thought – I’m old now, I no longer have to put up with stuff. What I actually thought was – I’m almost dead, might as well live the way I want to not how others want me to. Their way doesn’t work for me, never did, never will. It’s time I stopped thinking anyone else knows what’s right or wrong for me or about me.

              I do like to understand behaviour, patterns, cruelty, selfishness, darkness, and such. I want to know what makes people tick, the why behind the scenes. But not to be understanding of it, nor to forgive it, definitely not to forget it – that’s not logical. I like gathering information. Knowing others works hand in hand with knowing myself, and vice versa.

              The kind of understanding and love which we’re often told we must have by others for others – is always for them and never for us. It’s up to us to redress the balance because they never will, they like it unbalanced in their favour.

              That moment when you connect to your story and acknowledge it in all its gory, gives you the chance to claim some glory in being you as is, no holds barred. If anyone has a problem with it, they can go elsewhere, you’re done with listening to their litany of what you have to change about yourself, or hate about yourself, or do for them but not for yourself, et cetera…

              AT some point we level up 🙂

              Liked by 1 person

              Reply

  5. Today was 5 months. 5 months ago he left me. Day after my anniversary, day before valentinez day, he was flying home from work. At 1145 I received a text..yes a text.”.I want you to know I am safe and in the ground, but I am not coming home. I will talk to you whenever” he proceeded to a woman he works with home 90 miles away. He called me the 16th to meet and talk. We met and he proceeded to tell me how I had been disengaged and absent from our marriage and he was done with it all. I asked him to explain what that meant and he said we would chat and make plans then I would get home and poof we would never do them and that sex had dropped down ALOT. All of that was true due to progressing hypothyroidism and Hashimoto’s. Which he knew since I had been fighting it so certainly 02.

    I was with him for 16 years. Multiple affairs and inappropriate relationships all the way thru. I quit a six figure job to support a move so he could get his dream job. We moved 9 times in 10 years including to Europe. I managed everything. I didn’t mind, I had no job outside the house so I felt okay doing all of that. Every pack and unpack and finding new dr and dentists grocery store, school for our son, his fav foods, gas stations and clothing stores where I could buy his clothes. The first move moved me away from all of my family. He told me that we were a team. I was his cheer leader and social director. I made it easy for him to focus on work, so he could get ahead and get a VP position.

    Funny how I got no credit for time served. 10 years of marriage and like you posted in another post I was housekeeper, nanny, cook, sex toy, secetary, admin and only friend he had. He is still with the other woman…but tells me every day he loves me and misses me. That I am the best sexual partner he has ever had hands down. He told me he flies in and out of the airport closer to my house that hers to keep his options open, but he has never once came here. He acts like he is, then I get an email saying
    ” I am so confused about how I am feeling, so I need to do some things for me. Please understand I love you.”

    There is so much more, but he has blamed me for everything. There is not a person alive who knows us as a couple who believes that shit, in fact he has avoided any friends and his own family since he did this. I have cried every single day since he left. I am sure that keeps him happy. Every time I start to stand on my own feet he swoops in with implied relationship changes..and I crumble. I am a 2 on the Ennegram, a caretaker …so he saw me comming.

    I guess my question is, how do I get past this broken heart? How can I stop myself? I feel like I let him so far in that he is part of the fabric of my being..yes soulmates, best friends, the only person who understands him. I am thinking electroshock therapy. Can I ever be normal again?

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      You don’t need electroshock therapy, what you’re experiencing is natural and normal considering the situation. It may hurt like hell, but this kind of pain is a very human experience.

      A story:

      My uncle was given actual electroshock therapy to ‘cure’ his ‘schizophrenia’. He didn’t have schizophrenia, and electroshock therapy only ‘cured’ him of his trust in the medical world. What he had was a broken heart which had caused his mind to fracture for a while.

      Like you, he had devoted a large portion of his lifetime to his love – in his case it wasn’t a person. Someone came along and shattered his dream, which broke his heart, and the broken heart caused his mind to experience an extreme case of cognitive dissonance. Reality had changed overnight and he couldn’t adjust to it… not quickly anyway. He did eventually once he stopped holding onto what was gone and looked at what was there – in his case he had to embrace a new way of life without what had been central to it before.

      He gradually moved on, then found a new love (this time it was a person), which offered new hope and a new way of being.

      You can’t stop yourself from feeling and thinking what you feel and think, and maybe stopping it is not a solution even if you really want to stop, cut it out, cut him out of you.

      I can really relate to that, and the desire to do it. We can at times end up hurting ourselves more in our attempts to heal, so please be very gentle with yourself.

      He is a part of the fabric of your being, because he’s a significant part of your life, especially as you have a son together – that’s a tie which can’t be severed. Be aware of finding his image and likeness in your son. However he is not the fabric of your being – the difference makes a big difference.

      What you had together isn’t ruined but what you now have apart – it seems that way, but don’t let the present completely ruin the past. Not for his sake, but for yours and that of your son.

      You might find this blog to be of interest – http://letmereach.com/ – Kim, the blogger, was involved with a man with whom she had a child, and for whom she sacrificed much. She relates her own story and discusses many of the issues connected with moving on from someone with whom you’ve had an intense relationship and experience.

      There is no easy option in this scenario. But you are strong and have more power than perhaps you are aware. His games… they tell you more than just that he’s playing with you and with this other woman (he’ll be messing with her as much, maybe more, than he is with you – she isn’t going to come out of this without her own scars, he’ll use you to hurt her – that sounds like his M.O.). Ultimately though, he’s the one who is going to end up worse off – he had it all, he wanted more… he lost it all because he couldn’t see what he had, because he’s going through some sort of midlife crisis, ego issue, or some other thing, etc.

      He’s too wrapped up in himself to notice the consequences his actions are having on anyone else… but he’s aware enough to attempt to keep his options open, which is very galling if you’re one of his options.

      I read somewhere that for every year that you’ve been married or otherwise involved in a serious relationship you need at least one month for every year to gradually get over it when it ends. To go through a period of mourning akin to the 5 stages of grief (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model).

      Give yourself time, compassion, and be gentle with yourself. Let yourself heal naturally… I know you want it to happen sooner, you want the pain to stop… sometimes you just have to wait it out, let it ease when the time is right. You’ll be fine, you’re strong and will overcome this – you just need to let yourself go a bit mad first, because it’s the sort of situation with needs a bit of that.

      Best wishes, and take care of yourself!

      Liked by 2 people

      Reply

      • Thank you for sending me over to Kim’s letmereach.com page. It is a godsend and not just for me. My mother read it as well and called me this morning and told me “Okay I get it now. What is going on and why you are so dispondant. Whatever you need we are here. Take as much time as you need.” My father was a narcissist as well.

        Again I cannot say thank you enough. I didn’t cry today for the first time in 5 months.

        Liked by 2 people

        Reply

  6. I’ve read your blog and I’ll tell you.. I was like 99% sure he was a Narcissist, but this just confirmed my thoughts. I have an 18 month old daughter with a ‘man’ and I use that word only because if I said I had a baby with a child I may get frowned upon. I firmly believe the only way I’m going to be able to save myself from his wrath is the no contact approach. Except I can’t do this because we have a child, and for whatever reason; the court system can’t see what I see and allow him visitation. Along with telephone access to her. I seem to find myself playing his games and by the time my sane self realizes were engulfed in this game; it’s too late and I’m mad at myself for allowing him to keep controlling my brain. I want to escape him. I’ve been desperately searching for a therapist or someone who can help give me the tools and wisdom needed to remain stronger than him and not allow him to drag me back into his misery. I got a lot of that from this blog, however I was wondering if you knew a place to look or search for doctors who specialize in this disease and people affected by it. I’ve got a life sentence with him and were only 18 months in. I want to save my child from him and I don’t know how. I’m so lost. Please, if you can.. Help me. Thank you…

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      Being in a relationship with a narcissist is difficult, add a child to the scenario and you’re in it for the long haul. There’s no walking away from this, even with No Contact.

      You might find this blog helpful – http://letmereach.com/ – as the blogger, Kim, has been through what you’re going through and has a child with a narcissist, and had to go through the legal system in the USA while dealing with this.

      Cut yourself slack, being mad at yourself is normal and natural, but only useful if it’s motivating you, not tripping you up. Being human is hard, and relationships can be very complicated. Being in a relationship with a narcissist makes things even more complicated than usual. Getting caught up in their games is easy, takes a lot of practice not to do that. So be gentle with yourself. Give yourself time to learn from the experience and adjust.

      Getting support is important, can take a while to find the right kind of support for you personally. Do a search online for your local area. There are a lot of online groups offering support, they may not be local to you but they can sometimes be closer than those close to you. I don’t use any of these so I can’t recommend a site. There are also ones which offer meet-ups locally. If you’re looking for a therapist you can visit, it can be a bit trickier to find the right person, however NPD is more well known these days, so most therapists who are keeping up with things may be able to help. Be sure to interview anyone you are considering entrusting with helping you, make sure they’re on the same page as you.

      The website – psychology today – has groups and references – https://therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/ – local and otherwise. Not sure how good they are but it’s a place to start.

      This website links to resources, also links to a forum – http://outofthefog.net/Disorders/NPD.html – as does this one – http://n-continuum.blogspot.co.uk/

      Liked by 2 people

      Reply

  7. Hi my dear lovely soul…
    You command my respect girl…
    yes am a product of N couple too. !
    🙂 😉 (girl child )

    I would love to follow your blog always..

    You’re the first blog writer I’ve reached out to with so much admiration in my heart.

    Thank you for YOU.
    🙂

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  8. My dad is a narcissist, and I am a 21 year old male who feel empty and believes he is a narcissist.
    I see traits in me that resemble narcissism, trying to be other people, trying to please them, easily jealous, easily angry, easily envious, but longling to be a normal person.
    I hate me, I hate my small penis, I hate my vitiligo.
    I hate how I am so critical, and fuckign hate how I take everything personally.
    I hate how I read about narcissists and see myself in them. How fragile am I, how little sense of self must I have.
    I cry every and and I am crying writing about this. I am a narcissist who needs love.
    Should I just kill myself? I think anbout it everytime I read about narcissism. I don’t want to be a bad person.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      No, you should not kill yourself.

      Please read this – https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/1p1uag/help_i_think_i_am_a_narcissist/ – it’s from a forum for children of narcissists. I recommend checking out the site.

      You don’t sound like a narcissist.

      You sound like you’re the child of a narcissist. Children of narcissists often diagnose themselves as being narcissists.

      What you’ve shared of yourself is not how a real narcissist would express themselves, it’s how a child of a narcissist would express themselves.

      This is worth a read – https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/insight-is-2020/201405/narcissistic-parents-psychological-effect-their-children

      Hating yourself comes from growing up with an NPD parent. The abuse which a narcissist parent inflicts on their child is deeply damaging to the child’s sense of self, and most children of narcissists end up hating themselves, thinking they’re a monster, a terrible person, that they don’t deserve to live, and that they’d be doing the world a favour if they just killed themselves. This is particularly the case for children of narcissists who have been given the ‘scapegoat’ role by their parent.

      I felt that way, especially at your age as I was still very much under the influence of my narcissist parents, and I almost did kill myself as a way to end the pain and torture.

      I was angry, envious, critical, tried to please other people and always seemed to fail, felt I was never good enough, thought I was an awful person, a failure at being human, and longed to be someone else. I desperately wanted to be normal but couldn’t figure out how because I felt like a freak. I hated everything about myself.

      The pain I felt made me very narcissistic.

      We can be very narcissistic, all humans have narcissistic traits and behaviour as narcissism is natural to all of us. Pain accentuates the negative side of it.

      All children absorb traits and behaviours from their parents, if your parent is a narcissist then you will have absorbed narcissistic traits and behaviours from your narcissist parent. There is a very big difference between having narcissistic traits and behaviours, and being a narcissist, having Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Growing up with a parent who is a narcissist can make us prone to becoming Inverted Narcissists – thinking we’re the worst of the worst rather than the best of the best as most narcissists do – and we do need to recognise our own narcissistic tendencies and get help with them.

      This is a good post by the adult child of a narcissist father – http://www.rubbershoesinhell.com/how-to-be-an-adult-child-of-a-narcissist/

      I would suggest finding a therapist who has experience with NPD, and helping adult children of narcissists (ACoNs). Please get a professional diagnosis, as that way you will also be able to receive the help you need. Children of narcissists often develop PTSD, and this can lead to suicidal tendencies.

      If you do get diagnosed as a narcissist. NPD is treatable, the only reason it is often viewed as not being that way is that narcissists usually do not go into treatment for the condition. Most narcissists don’t think they’re narcissists, and they tend to think that the problems they have are everyone else’s fault. They rarely think they’re the problem – children of narcissists on the other hand tend to think they’re always the problem, and blame themselves for everything.

      This is worth reading – http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2012/03/25/empathy-can-be-learned-overcoming-narcissism-one-day-at-a-time/

      Please be careful when reading articles online about narcissists and NPD, and don’t use what you read to hurt yourself.

      Your life matters, and you’re not a bad person, you’re a human who is suffering and suffering can distort our view of the world and ourselves. Recovery is always an option, it may take time, but it is worth it!

      Liked by 2 people

      Reply

  9. Hi. I’m hoping you can give me some advice, or tell me to just let things be it will work itself out but I’m looking for an unbiased opinion from someone with knowledge or experience with persons who have NPD. I want to apologize in advance if it turns out to be lengthy.
    My baby’s daddy, Mark, has an ex-wife, Larissa, that was diagnosed with NPD during their custody battle. I’m not sure why in their divorce file their psych evals (hers) is confidential. I only know the outcome because of what he told me while we were together.
    While they were together they had a daughter, Alex, who I bonded with during the two years we lived together. We have a daughter, Kinley, who was coincidentally born 5 years to the day after Alex. During our relationship Mark and Larissa were not on great terms but things have changed and I would call them friends but really I think Larissa just uses him for what she wants. Anyway, I am pleased (especially for Alex) that they get along.
    However what drives me almost literally crazy is that Larissa thinks it is completely ok to take my daughter when she wants but tells me I have no reason to keep a relationship with Alex because Mark and I are not together. I reminded her she also is not with Mark but this didn’t get me anywhere. There is always a reason it is ok for her but not for me in any given situation of the hundreds I feel like I have.
    Most recently I babysat both girls for Mark one night and Larissa found out and was livid, It was the week before the girls birthday, they’re 3 and 8 this year. She calls me the next day (Wed) to ask if I can assist in the party that Sat. This is the first I have heard about it. I’m way too nice, I know it’s easy for me to be someone’s doormat then I get discouraged I was used. Anyhow, I agree to help with gift bags and even take it a step further by offering to help find some party games. Immediately after we get that worked out she brings up that I should never have Alex. I’m not good at being confrontational although I wanted to tell her I never want her to have Kinley either I just stated that I was at work and I’d see her Sat.
    Oh, also I don’t think I ever got it through hers or Mark’s head that this was not a party for both girls, but for Alex. I did a party for Kinley the next day which I had planned earlier that month. But Larissa’s mom (not Mark’s, who’s both girls grandma) did a cake for both of them and I think they expect me to pay for some of it which I’m still fighting. I believe that last year they also tried to plan a party for both girls while leaving me out of it.
    On the day of the girls birthday we had originally planned to all of us go out to dinner, Mark promised he wouldn’t leave anyone out. I called that morning and he made it sound like the plan was off. I said I would still take Kinley to dinner. About an hour before I got off work he sent me a text saying he was feeding Kinley. I had to push and directly ask but as it turns out he and Larissa took the girls to dinner with no regard to me. Mark apologized and said he just wasn’t thinking but I’m not sure if I believe him that it wasn’t a plan. I am still so hurt. I am fearful of what I may have to deal with annually, even constantly as she is a part of their regular life.
    Larissa feels it is completely acceptable to teach Kinley to call her mother Nana. I had to raise a fit about Kinley calling Larissa Mom. I’m still not sure what goes on while I’m not around. Larissa just really pushes my boundaries when it comes to my daughter. This wouldn’t be as big of a deal if they were a family together but we’re in the same boat.

    Do I have reason to worry?

    What can I do? Although Mark knows and has studied NPD he seems to just always do what she wants. I don’t know if it’s to keep things peaceful with her or if she is still able to manipulate him mentally. How do I deal with it in my own head if I can’t do anything?

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      I’m just going to share some thoughts, rather than give advice.

      First, I would recommend that you seek professional advice, both from a lawyer who deals with family law and from a therapist (who has experience of those with NPD in a family environment that includes minors). You may never need to act on the advice which the professionals give you, and hopefully you won’t, but it’s worth having it just in case you need it. When a narcissist is part of the equation it is wise to be forewarned and forearmed with knowledge and have your bases covered with practical options. Sometimes when we’re caught up in the thick of a complicated situation, we can end up feeling powerless to do anything, and since those with NPD are adept at creating drama and confusing even the simplest of matters, you need to have the ability to cut through the fog and maintain clarity
      to ease your mind, give you solid ground to stand on.

      When there are issues which cause worries, it’s best to tackle the worries head on, logically and methodically.

      If you do decide to consult a lawyer and/or a therapist I would keep it private and not share that information with anyone else. This is something you should do for yourself and keep to yourself. Your privacy is a sanctuary.

      From what you’ve shared, there is a question which came to mind:

      – How much of what is going on is actually Larissa’s doing and how much of it is Mark’s?

      She’s been diagnosed with NPD, which is a matter of concern but it very much depends on where she is on the NPD spectrum as to how this will affect matters, however you mentioned that you only have Mark’s word for it, that he was the one who told you about her psych eval results, and that you haven’t been able to see the document itself as it is confidential so you can’t confirm if what he told you was correct or the context of the evaluation.

      What about him, what did his psych eval reveal, did he share that with you while he was sharing information about Larissa’s?

      The reason I ask is because from the way you’ve described the situation and his behaviour in it, he seems to be playing man-in-the-middle stuck between you and Larissa, nothing seems to be his responsibility it all seems to be placed upon you and Larissa’s shoulders. He seems to expect the two of you to work things out and makes things work. His behaviour could just be his way of handling a complex and stressful dynamic, he may be opting for a passive approach, however it also has a slight undercurrent of triangulation. Could he be playing you and Larissa off against each other? Could he be misinforming her as much as he does with you? Not telling her things as he omits to tell you things. Or telling her things about you as he tells you things about her?

      It would be worth looking a bit more closely at his part in the dynamic as he is in quite a strategic position yet he seems to be flying under both of your radars. You’re both focused on each other, partly due to him, and I would hazard a guess that you both make excuses for him, perhaps adopting the excuses he makes for himself while perhaps blaming yourselves or each other for any problems.

      I’d trust that impression you had recently which you spoke of here – “Mark apologized and said he just wasn’t thinking but I’m not sure if I believe him that it wasn’t a plan. I am still so hurt.” – your hurt may be lingering because it is your instincts warning you that something is wrong with the picture he’s presenting.

      Some of what you’ve mentioned with regards to his explanations and excuses has an element of gaslighting.

      Larissa is behaving in a rather possessive manner towards your daughter, asking her to call her mom is out of order, however it could be viewed as an awkward and misguided way of making sure your daughter feels a part of Larissa’s side of your extended family. From what you’ve said she seems to care for your daughter, and you haven’t mentioned your daughter experiencing any negative impact from her time spent with Larissa. Her double-standards with regards to what she’s allowed to do and what you’re allowed to do where your children are concerned could be explained by fear, her over-protective stance about your relationship with her daughter is not necessarily unusual for a parent, but it stands out as odd because of the double-standard. It begs the question – What is causing her to be so fearful? You seem to have proven that you’re trustworthy, and she seems to rely on you, so what’s going on behind the scenes? Why, of what, and of who is she afraid?

      How much of Larissa’s behaviour towards you do you think could be due to Mark’s influence on her? Is she manipulating him or is it the other way around? Might he be making her feel insecure about you, about herself, and she’s reacting to that? Could he be affecting her in a similar way that he is affecting you? It seems as though a lot of what is going on could be cleared up by him, and yet he seems to be confusing matters instead.

      Has anyone in your extended family suggested, or have you tried, going to family counseling? It may just be a case of needing a professional to offer all of you a structured system which works for all of you, and which allows all of you to air your concerns in a safe environment and find a communal solution.

      Another thing, from the way you’ve told your story, you seem to be alone in this or view yourself as being alone, and you give the impression that you feel gradually edged out of the family by Larissa and Mark,a s though they’re ganging up on you and are up to something. Is one of your worries that they will somehow move to get custody of your daughter? If this is a worry, then you should definitely consult a lawyer to find out where you stand and what you need to do to ease your concerns and create some friendly legal boundaries which can’t be easily crossed.

      You come across as being very fair, kind, intelligent, strong, caring, and capable. You’re handling a complex situation with grace and dignity. This is admirable, however it can be a problem if you’re dealing with a narcissist as they may take advantage of your good nature. Be sure to make time to take care of yourself, replenish your energy, find a safe place to unwind and get some support from those you can trust. Make sure to be open with yourself about your concerns, don’t dismiss them, they matter, you matter.

      Best wishes!

      Like

      Reply

  10. Hello,

    First of all I want to apologize for my English, as it is not my first language, and for the extension of the post, and how it may sound.
    Recently, like two month ago, I discovered I’ve been raised by a narcissistic mother, became the scapegoat of a narcissistic step-mother, and have a young brother that became the golden child. The discovery was due to all the readings I’ am making in the subject, your blog included, and all the stories shared within the comments. Because of them, these three cases are all crystal clear to me now.

    However, there are other cases in my life that is kinda blurred.

    First, I may be an inverted narcissistic for the following reasons: once I start what could be a friendship I find myself talking about how awful I’ am, distrusting the friendship all the time (saying things like ‘you were never my friends, and will never be’), being jealous of my friends many acquaintances because of this reasoning ‘see, I told you so that I’ am not that important, there will always be people more important and better for you than me in this world’, testing the friendship by distancing myself from them and seeing their reaction, if they will miss me or not (the majority of the time they don’t, or it is how I perceive it by narcissistic traits); and so on.

    Or, I may have NPD for the following reasons: there is a very specifically case in my life that point it out for me. I was never confessed to, I’ve never thought anyone could fall for such hideous human being. So, this person I shall name B confessed to me by timidly giving me a well wrapped love letter, after I tried to help his mood that seemed off all the evening. Person B was kind of regretful and nervous about giving me the letter. And well right so.

    After I returned home I unfold the paper and read it. Person B is a very logical person, so the letter, even being a confession, seemed like and essay in how they found they love me and for what reasons. For another person the letter would’ve sound endearing. I’ve found it outrageous. The next morning I completely ignore them. I’ve broken person B’s heart. I couldn’t stand it all the evening so as soon as I could I found person B and call them out for a talk. I started by stating how I didn’t like misunderstandings, but all in all through the talk I did not state my own fault at ignoring them.

    However, with person B became a routine the “ignore them, then make amends, ignore them again, then make amends again” nonstop. To the point person B starts to act indifferent towards me, stating I’ve made them numb. Even knowing so the routine did not stop, for other reasons, but did not stop. Another statement by person B that I find pertinent, and see in other people stories about dealing with narcissistics, is that they didn’t know what they did wrong for receiving such a treatment (the cold shoulder I’ve given them).

    The second case is with two former friends.

    The friend I shall call C is now person B’s actual lover. Friend C is a complicated case (that I find hard to explain with my actual knowledge of English, but I’ll try). They have traits similar to the ones of a narcissistic that victimized themselves, and all the traits I’ve read about narcissists. They don’t listen to you, and if you state your opinion, or a world’s view that opposes theirs, they will stop to talk to you the next morning (much to my surprise the same behaviour I showed with person B). There is no doubt about friend C. But then there is friend D. The friend I fell in love with. Friend D despised friend C. I had past complications with friend C before, as the ones stated, and being completely put aside when friend C invite me to lunch with them and their lover at the time. So I was at person’s D side. However… This scene may tell a lot:

    When friend C and person B started dating I couldn’t believe it, and my mind was screaming ‘friends aren’t that important, lovers will always win over friendship’. I despised it so much to the point of having a mental breakdown. Person B tried to talk to me, I didn’t listened to them, I said ‘I will rather talk to friend D’. I did it. I talk to friend D, that was also friend of person B.

    Then, person B showed with friend C after the conversation with friend D.

    What happened? I was having a mental breakdown, stated how friends will never be as important as lovers, stated how friend C had hurt me that day when they invited me to the lunch only to suck their lover’s face in front of me. I was screaming nonsenses as a mad person. All of it in front of person B and friend D.

    After I was over screaming friend C said ‘oh, that day, I did not remember it, maybe I was too in love with the person at that time’. Then proceeded to state that they’ve been in worse days, times when they have suicidal thoughts ‘you know too well my apartment, how I could throw myself out that window’. I listened to it, confused, and felt sorry, pity, for friend C. It finished with forgiveness.

    Then I was left alone with friend D. At that time they cogitate being friend with friend C. ‘They are compassionate and empathetic after all’. This image, however, did not last long and friend D started to despise friend C again. And so one day, friend D pointed out to me that friend C in that day was victimizing themselves, I was the one hurt, but other than helping me they turned the light to themselves.

    In one day I was the wrong and friend C the compassionate one, and in the other I was the hurtful one and friend C the victimizing villain. This strikes me so odd…

    However… I’ am rambling now, but the point is:
    I have NPD? Friend D has NPD?
    If so what could be done?
    I am cogitating to isolate myself again to meditate about my behaviours towards others. I want to be a better person not the one described as in the NPDs I’ve read about. I’ve always been the villain in everyone’s story, and also don’t want to hurt anyone else like I did with person B.

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      If you are concerned about whether you have NPD or not, then I would recommend visiting a therapist and getting a professional diagnosis, and treatment if necessary. NPD has quite a few similarities to other disorders and conditions, and it is usually best not to self-diagnose especially not by using online resources as on the internet many articles are about the extreme end of the NPD spectrum. It’s also worth being aware that all humans can be narcissistic, particularly when we’re suffering and in pain, and therefore narcissistic behaviour is not necessarily a sign of having NPD.

      Since you are certain that your mother is a narcissist, and your step-mother too, you may find that what you are seeing as NPD traits and behaviours in yourself may actually be due to the experience of growing up under the influence of a narcissist.

      This is a forum for children of narcissists and on it they have a page for those who suspect that they may have NPD due to growing up with a narcissist – https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/1p1uag/help_i_think_i_am_a_narcissist/ – it’s worth reading as I think you may find that it is helpful as it briefly explains how you may have absorbed some of the behaviours of your NPD parent, and may exhibit that same behaviour without actually having NPD.

      I can relate to quite a lot of the complications which you have had in relationships, I have at times behaved very narcissistically, repeating patterns of behaviour which I learned in childhood. Much of it for me was due to experiencing the PTSD which comes with being the child of a narcissist. I was terrified all the time which made it impossible to ever really have a healthy relationship.

      We get used to not trusting others, of being paranoid, suspecting others of ulterior motives because our NPD parent always does – they were only nice to us when they wanted something, stabbed us in the back and betrayed our trust when it suited them, told us they loved us when they hurt us, used and abused us and told us it was our fault, that we were the problem. We tend to always think the worst of ourselves, feel as though we’re awful and no one could ever genuinely love us, because that’s what our NPD parent told us, taught us and how they made us feel on a daily basis – that’s the reality they constructed for us and it is a hard habit to break.

      When people care for us it can trigger all sorts of fears and cause us to self-destruct or destroy the relationship. We sometimes hurt others to scare them away from us so that we won’t hurt them – our logic can be twisted because we grew up in the twisted reality of a narcissist. It takes a concerted and conscious effort to unravel all the knots. Having stable and healthy relationships is something which we have to learn to do bit by bit as it is not what we grew up with, it’s not what is familiar and are used to, which is why we sometimes gravitate towards people who are either narcissists or who are very narcissistic.

      There always seems to come a time for children of narcissists, who aren’t narcissists themselves (but who may have behaved narcissistically in their lives), when we’ve had enough, when we reach a crisis point (often accompanied by a breakdown of sorts), when we become increasingly aware of what we’re doing and want to stop repeating the pattern. This can inspire a period of self-reflection as you are experiencing now. That desire and willingness to look within, to question, learn, understand, figure yourself out – those with NPD don’t tend to do that. Your concern for B and how you behaved with him, the fact that you feel deeply about having hurt him and how that is inspiring you to seek answers, make changes, work through your story – that’s also not something someone with NPD would do.

      You need to explore your own story, your childhood and the influences which shaped you, gently and at your own pace, as you are doing. So, keep researching and learning, discovering.

      Much of how we relate to others is connected to how we relate to ourselves, our relationship with ourselves influences our relationship with others. When you grow up with a parent who has NPD your relationship with yourself is abusive because to survive that kind of parent you have to deny your own needs, wishes, and who you are. So recovery requires getting to know ourselves better, seeing that we’re not as awful as our NPD parents made us believe that we were, and gradually finding out who we really are, what we truly feel, and allowing ourselves to accept that love doesn’t have to hurt, and that it’s okay to allow others to love us (this one can be very challenging).

      Be careful not to be too hard on yourself. It’s okay to make mistakes. It’s to make a mess. It’s okay to be human.

      Best wishes!

      Like

      Reply

  11. I am 50 years old and seeing clearly for the first time, the path of destruction that my BPD/NPD mother has left as her legacy of chaos/control/bitterness/hate/neediness. I am trying to hard to detach from the game playing, where she pulls my adult siblings into disliking each other as a way to fill her up. It’s like she has no conscious or feelings other than to scan the word for the latest offender and make them pay. I am grieved at the thought of how many times I’ve unwittingly been used to help her accomplish her agenda of pay-back. I’ve been a magnet for unhealthy friends who want to use and manipulate me. I have sane friends who are great, but the BPD/NPD friends are somehow more fun when they are nice. I have pruned away all of the crappy people. I am so much more at peace, albiet a bit lonely at times. My remaining issue – my aging mother and father and how to cut out the drama and manipulation without doing a no-contact thing that would hurt m teenage kids and make them think that I am a paranoid crazy mean person. You see, she is really good at making herself the victim and getting other people to feel bad for her. I want my kids to grow up learning that nobody is perfect and that you sometimes have to forgive the same people over and over. But, it is also so much work for me to keep her at bay, and the threat of her instigating even more than normal just compels me to give up. But, everytime I see evidence of her meddling that creates rifts and harm in order to create pleasure for herself, I feel sick. She even called me to tell me how important it is to her that I never believe anything my brother says about her after she dies. (She isn’t physically ill – just aging 77 years old.) She spent over an hour trying to make sure I understood that the reason she and my brother have no contact is all because of him. Effectively, she is asking me to hate my brother on her behalf with no regard for what that ‘demand’ may do to me. I feel like I can’t win. I’m paranoid that I feel like any mistake I make in relationships is totally my fault, and that everyone is seeing me as a social loser. But, that’s not true. I have to fight feeling like I deserve having people treat me badly whenever I do anything wrong – like leave a carpool, or tell a friend that I can’t agree to dislike someone just because she dislikes them, or when I inform someone who is codependent that I don’t want to be their counselor – and they take it as though I am a terrible person. Hey, I’m happier now that I see more clearly, but I’m seeing all the ugliness more clearly and it’s devastating to me. Any suggestions for healing?

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      Over the years I’ve tried many different methods of healing, some of which seemed to make things worse rather than better. I think what’s most healing is to focus on what brings you relief, what nourishes and strengthens you – sometimes what does that can appear to be painful at first.

      The cure is always within the wound, to find it you have to go into to it, which may be very painful before it becomes better.

      As you said – “I’m happier now that I see more clearly, but I’m seeing all the ugliness more clearly and it’s devastating to me.”

      The best healing method is the one that you create for yourself which is made of all the things that have quietly helped you over the years. You’ve been dealing with this all your life, you have a lot of knowledge, understanding, and far more personal power than you’ve ever been allowed to acknowledge. In some ways the healing a child of a narcissist needs the most is about trusting ourselves – something which we’ve learned in many ways not to do due to our narcissist parent’s influence and interference, so doing it is a deeply meaningful experience which can alter how we are affected by our parents and how we relate to them and ourselves.

      For me personally I credit this book – http://andywhiteblog.com/2015/06/23/going-mad-to-stay-sane/ – with being a catalyst. It explained my parents to me in a way which allowed me to detach from them and their behaviour. I learned to stop taking what they did personally and saw it as being part of their own nightmare – basically they’re stuck in their own internal hell and drag you into it in an attempt to get themselves out of it. There was one statement in the book which really hit home for me – it spoke of how our parents can implant a self-destruct button in us which causes us to sabotage our own happiness, freedom, and anything else which is good for us. I knew I was self-destructive before I read it, but I couldn’t figure out how to unravel the knots which tied me to that kind of behaviour. The book made me take stock and really look at myself instead of looking at my parents.

      As long as we’re focused on them, even if it is negative attention, they win because that’s what they want and need from us. They don’t really care if we love them or hate them (love and hate are the same thing to them and they can’t tell the difference between them) as long as our lives are all about them. The moment you shift your attention away from them onto yourself, things begin to change within the dynamic. Sometimes the changes are very subtle, which in some ways is better than big sudden changes because each subtle shift adds up to a bigger one and is more likely to be more deeply rooted within us.

      What stands out in your story is the fact that you are very conscious of the games people play and you resist getting drawn into them. That can be very hard to do and shows a great strength of character and strong independence. You are very much your own person, you think for yourself – which can be challenging to do when your parent is a narcissist because your thoughts are one of the things they are desperate to control. They’re terrified of other people’s independent thinking, especially of their children because you know too much about them and they hate people knowing them that intimately as it means you know their weaknesses (and they are afraid you’ll use them the way they would).

      Don’t be hard on yourself for those times when your mother has used you to fight her battles. I’ve hated myself for allowing my mother to use me that way, in some ways it was what bonded us together – me fighting her battles for her – as there really wasn’t anything else between us. I did some really shitty things on her behalf, and she often turned against me when it suited her during the battles which I was fighting for her. Suddenly she’d be on the side of the person she had pitted me against, and they went from being the villain who was abusing and victimising her to being the hero and I was the villain.

      Your mother sounds a lot like mine, she plays the damsel in distress looking for a knight in shining armour to save her from some terrible dragon. Her cries for help can be appealing, like a siren’s song luring sailors onto the rocks. It is a mythical quest which usually never ends well for the heroes who get sucked into her story. What the knight doesn’t know until it is too late is that the damsel in distress can’t allow the dragon to be killed because… basically she is the dragon. The moment the knight gets close to vanquishing the dragon, the tables get turned on the heroic knight and suddenly he’s the villain who is victimising the damsel and the damsel is hiring another knight to fight the new baddie in her life. It’s a perpetual vicious cycle, with her as the axis, which keeps it going and going and going.

      Took me ages to break out of the cycle and stay out. I had to hit a very painful personal wall and I finally snapped out of my routine and erected a boundary – for which she called me evil. In that moment when she did that the final straw snapped and I decided that it was better to be the villain in her story. That was the last time I ever spoke to her.

      I was able to go No Contact, but it’s not always possible to do that and doing it comes with its own set of difficulties.

      She did once try to use The Samaritans to get back in touch with me – she told them I was ‘A Missing Person’. They ‘found’ me and I had one of those moments where every atom in my being groaned because I knew that I was going to have to go through a lecture about what a terrible daughter I was and my poor mother, blah, blah, blah, something I’d heard since I was a small child from all those strangers my parents recruited to fight their battles for them, but instead the Samaritan I spoke to had her routine sussed and validated my choice to cut her out of my life. That was an amazing turning point – healing comes in many forms along the way.

      She did come crashing back into my life recently when my father died, and I’ve relived the hell of my past because she’s hasn’t changed a bit, she’s doing the same thing as she has always done, stuck in her nightmare dragging others into it, playing the damsel in distress trying to find someone to rescue her from all the villains in her life. At first I went through all my old behaviours, coping mechanisms, and felt myself spiral into fear, desperation and depression, but it was like letting go of baggage I’d been carrying and had forgotten to put down. I had changed, I just hadn’t acknowledged it .

      We sometimes are so focused on them that we don’t notice what’s going on with us, or we only focus on what’s wrong with us, our mistakes, flaws, thus missing what’s right with us.

      The same applies to a concept like healing – we can get too caught up in the idea that we are wounded, because we’re hurting, in pain, that we may overlook where we aren’t wounded, what isn’t hurting and where we aren’t in pain.

      You sound like a lovely person, kind, caring, strong. Your pain of your experience with your mother has inspired you to be mindful, which is a rare and beautiful trait. Pay attention to what doesn’t need healing and that will help with what does.

      You might find this of interest – http://www.psychologymatters.asia/article/305/move-away-selfesteem-make-way-for-selfcompassion.html

      Reading shared stories like this one can be helpful – http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2015/10/11/healing-trauma-victimization-has-no-grey-area/

      And articles like this can be very validating and informative – https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-legacy-distorted-love/201205/it-s-all-about-me-recovery-adult-children-narcissist

      Take good care of yourself, be gentle with yourself.

      Like

      Reply

  12. I googled “natal saturn retrograde 8th house Aries” and your post came up. I was surprised to see how similar our charts are, well at least in my mind.

    I’m just beginning to look into astrology, so maybe it is simply a matter of us being around the same age and born relatively near one another. I could

    truly identify with many of your sentiments, and had to chuckle thinking, surely there aren’t two of us roaming about. I’m not internet savvy, and

    I’m not much for posting comments, but I just felt compelled to connect. Be well being yourself, the world needs more character, and I figure you’re

    one.

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you very much 🙂

      If our charts are similar then your Saturn will be getting a zapping from transiting Uranus – maybe your interest in astrology was stimulated by that. I’ve found that since transiting Uranus has been conjuncting my Saturn I’ve been doing a lot of things that I hadn’t done before (starting a blog and writing posts like this one is one of those). I feel less restricted in my actions and in expressing myself as I am… not sure if that’s a good thing or a bad thing, both or neither, but I’m at the age when it doesn’t matter as much anymore and don’t feel the need to hide the crazy 😉

      I love the idea of ‘two of us roaming about’… keep up the roaming!

      Have fun exploring astrology and your chart, and trying out new things. Jump in and learn as you go, it’s more of an adventure that way!

      Like

      Reply

  13. Help me please, I’m sorry, but I don’t know anything anymore. This is really true? The NPDs? The emotional abuse? God, I don’t know. I’ve just behaved wrong. I did wrong. I was only seeking peace, or is what I thought. Never, ever, thought of being superior to anyone.
    I don’t know what to do. They are all angry at me, my family.

    I’m on a cruise trip. One week of travelling. I always feel oppressed whatever I’m near my brother or step-mother. So in times like the breakfast I seek a seat alone. I cannot say the reason. And maybe this is not even true. I mean, all that I read makes sense, but… Maybe I’m doing wrong too.

    I just wanted some time alone at peace. I’ve never intended it to sound displeasing to them.

    Throughout the travel I’ve been really rude, angry, to my brother. It really gets on my nerves. And so, every time this occurs my shoulders get heavy with regret.

    I’m afraid, very afraid. They’re disappointed at me. My father is. Disappointed, angry, perhaps.

    I’m sorry. I want help, there’s nowhere to go. No one that will hear me. Explain things to me. And I know you’ve got many stories similar, even the same one.
    I’m having a breakdown. Just dismiss it.

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      I’ve been stuck on a cruise during the holidays with my family and I considered jumping ship very seriously because it seemed safer in the water than on the ship. The environment can magnify any issues which exist among family members as there is nowhere to go to get away from each other and everyone has left their coping mechanisms behind at home. Also the pressure to enjoy the cruise because it’s a cruise and supposed to be fun can intensify strife and stress. Being on a cruise can sometimes feel a bit like being stuck in an insane asylum – on the cruise I was on a fight broke out between passengers over the jigsaw puzzle in the recreation room because a piece was missing and everyone was accusing everyone else of stealing it. People get very bored in that kind of environment and that kind of boredom is reactive, everyone goes a bit stir crazy.

      Things will settle down and go back to normal once the cruise is over – so hang in there.

      Question is – What is normal for your family? What are you all like together when you’re in your regular environment? Is your family dynamic always like this and was aggravated by being stuck on a ship in the ocean, or is it usually more harmonious?

      You asked about NPD – are you concerned that you have NPD or that one or more of your family members has it? What made you research the personality disorder?

      It sounds to me as though your father may have wanted this trip to be something which it is not and he’s frustrated about that. He wanted you all to play happy family, and perhaps he thought this trip might solve issues which have been going on. We sometimes think forcing everyone to be together really closely is going to make them get along better. Maybe he was trying to get you and your step-mother to spend more time together hoping that this would create a closer bond, and it’s actually caused a sharper rift. Since he’s human, he’s angry with himself but taking it out on someone else which happens to be you – perhaps because you’ve been the most open about your feelings and the least willing to pretend that everything is happy and fine.

      If you would like to look into NPD a bit more, and communicate with people who have had similar experiences, then I suggest checking this forum out – https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists – particularly this page – https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/1p1uag/help_i_think_i_am_a_narcissist/

      You might also find this article of interest – https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/promoting-empathy-your-teen/201407/when-parents-blame-their-children

      This site also has some good articles and exercises to help sort out confusion with regards to family and the self, and NPD – http://www.angriesout.com/grown17.htm

      From what you have shared it sounds as though you’re overwhelmed by the situation and you’re trying to find a way to have some space for yourself to figure things out, get away from the stress, take a time out and recharge your batteries, but that’s a hard thing to do on a ship, especially if your family won’t let you have time to yourself. Be gentle with yourself. You’re doing your best in a difficult situation. You’re aware that you haven’t behaved all that well, but cut yourself slack, from the sounds of it the rest of your family hasn’t behaved well either. They’re not respecting your boundaries or giving you the chance to tell your side of the story and listen to what you have to say.

      Feel free to vent on here if you need to. It sometimes helps to get things out into the open and out of your system. Keeping it all in can create the sort of pressure which makes the head feel like it’s going to explode, and the heart feels crushed by heaviness.

      You’re going to be okay, take care of yourself!

      Like

      Reply

      • Thank you so much for the answer. I’m feeling exactly how you’ve felt. Especially because I’ve also researched how to be killed by hypothermia, the same way that happened in Titanic.

        My family were never harmonious, I always feel a hostile pressure by being around them. I don’t know if it’s only me, but it’s hard to be myself around them, and the pressure makes me become a pile of nerves, which in the end makes me do things I regret after.

        I have this thing that I don’t like and my father always do, that is when entering in some place he goes behind and push me (like to continues going forward, even though I’m walking forward). It enerves me, so when I’ve had enough I did a gesture that was misunderstood. I turn around and walked backwards for him to not push me, he got offended and my stepmother said “sometimes she thinks that we have some kind of disease”. But I don’t think that, never thought. So I tried to apologize and explain myself.

        I stuttered, it did not go well, and no matter how many times I tried to explain myself my father just say “I just don’t get you, that’s all”.

        I desperately tried to make amends again, to reassure him that I never thought such I thing (what my stepmother said).

        Then he said that is okay now, but I was feeling so bad that I insisted until my brother interfered to stop my unnecessary pleading.

        And that is exactly what kills me. Feeling bad and regretful for every action that I make.
        And that’s also why I thought of NPD. Every single mistake I do is a trigger for a mental breakdown, and don’t have to be necessarily pointed out.

        By what I read this seems to be a symptom in people that live with people with NPD. And that’s why I thought of it. But the same sources advices that the better thing to do is the “no contact”.

        I’ve found myself in a dilemma.

        Like

        Reply

        • The ‘No Contact’ solution is a popular one, and good advice as long as doing it is possible, but when those with NPD are close family members it can sometimes not be an option, or at least it can be very difficult to do. There are other options and ways to manage the situation. Even with No Contact the most important thing to do is to inform yourself, not just about NPD but about yourself – get to know yourself well, as self-knowledge gives you personal power which is a valuable thing to have in life, and is a must when dealing with difficult people, whether they have NPD or not.

          One of the essentials in self-knowledge is knowing that it’s okay to feel bad, to have regrets, to have emotions and emotional outbursts, to lose your mind and have breakdowns, to have contradictions, to want to kill yourself, because life just can be too overwhelming, yet you also want to live, to have flaws, faults, make mistakes, make a mess… all of these things are normal, natural and part of the experience of living and being. The more you feel okay with those things, the less others will be able to make you upset and trigger you because of them. Gradually you will feel comfortable being as you are, feel comfortable beign uncomfortable because sometimes that’s just how life feels, how our skin feels when we’re in it, and will see that a lot of the things which others make you feel bad about is not bad about you, it’s not your problem it’s the other person’s problem projected onto you – they don’t feel good about themselves so they’re passing their wound onto you.

          I would hazard a guess that your father, step-mother and brother all feel bad about themselves one way or another and for some reason they’re making you responsible for it – probably because you’re expressing things openly, while they’re all hiding behind facades. It’s not your fault that they feel that way, nor is it your responsibility to take on their bad feeling as though it is your fault and change yourself to make them feel better. You can’t make things better for them if the problem is theirs (which it is). Your father told you as much when he said that he didn’t get you – he doesn’t understand you, and he seems to be trying but his way of trying to understand you is actually making things harder for both of you. It sounds like your brother is trying to be a mediator, bring peace, but that really isn’t his responsibility so his attempts are aggravating the problem. Actually your step-mother’s words are very insightful – her view of what she thinks you think tells you a lot about the dynamic going on.

          You have a lot of power in this situation, your family has handed that to you and they’re all expecting you to solve the situation for them, yet at the same time they’re trying to take all your power away, and I think that may be part of the reason why you feel so burdened and why you’re experiencing a breakdown. It’s an impossible situation because the roles are all screwed up.

          You do have some options.

          The option most likely to ease the pressure and tension sooner than later is the one I’d be most reluctant to recommend, especially if you’re in your teens or early twenties because you shouldn’t really be the one to have to do this, and that is to view your father, step-mother, and brother as children and to treat them as though you’re a gentle and tolerant parent who realises that they’re too caught up in their own needs, pain and issues, to respect yours. This is hard to do as it requires a lot of detachment from the situation. You also have to be very aware of their fears and needs, and use them to soothe them. For instance, your step-mother is afraid that you hate her, she’s worried about how you think and feel about her, so you’d have to be kind to her, treat her like a scared child and do something to let her know that you accept her and everything is okay. See what I mean, it’s not something easy to do, you have to put your own needs to one side for the moment, change yourself or at least the way you behave with them for awhile, and you shouldn’t be the one doing this in this scenario but they’ve made it all about you so you’re the one who has the power to change what’s going on, at least superficially for now to get them off your back and give yourself some private breathing space.

          This is what I’d do if I was in your place right now. It’s something I’ve learned from experience to do and it does make a difference. It’s what I didn’t do when I was in a similar scenario in the past and if I’d thought of doing it then and had done it I’d have made things much easier for myself, instead I kept trying to get my parents to care about me, to listen to me, respect my feelings and so on… I kept expecting them to be good parents… but they were just children disguised as parents, and so my tactics then ended up in a constant battle between me and them.

          Your family will keep doing what they’re doing because they’re stuck in a pattern, and it’s a fearful one. You’re the brave one, unafraid of feeling what you’re feeling, expressing your emotions and thoughts, and this unsettles them because they’re not as bold as you are, which is why they’re trying to contain you. You’re open and honest, and that scares the crap out of people.

          You might find this site interesting – http://parentfreebychoice.blogspot.co.uk/ – it’s very insightful, you might find it helpful reading the stories which are shared on there.

          Take good care of yourself, and of your beautiful and wild heart!

          Like

          Reply

          • It got out handed. Your advise is a good one, but I found out in the worse way that I’m not mature enough to be able to follow it.

            I had I hurful conversation with my brother. He is upset that I’m not talking with our mother anymore and that she is hurt, even complaining that she lost a daughter (even before discovering NPD I’ve never had I good/healthy relationship with my mother. In fact, it was because of the symptoms that I mentioned that I stumble on it. “Why I feel like the younger sibling to my younger brother?” was the question in my mind. Complex of inferiority).

            He knows that she did mistakes in the past. But asks for forgivenes.

            In someway there’s still a part of me that is feeling oppressed, always criticized, ashamed of being myself just by interacting with them.

            But then… there’s the other one that made my brother cry.

            And then again return the one part of me that knows he will never listen to my side. That he will never undestands me. Even though our mother went through the same, and still goes, with her mother and sister.

            For her to never talk again with her sister is the right thing to do for her health. In my case, it doesn’t matter how bad she makes me feel, is so wrong to cut connections with her. She could become depressed, or even attempt suicide, is what my brother is afraid of.

            And I must feel bad about all of this situation.

            In the end he got it all off his chest. He cried in my shoulders. And everything return to “harmony” state for the sake of the travel. We played some chess and laugh about some jokes, just to break the ice.

            However… the oppression feeling… the way he never noticed when I was down, and if he was he will rub it on my face and cut me short.

            If I’m quiet and never smile I’m ruining the moment, I have to smile. I just have to. The same with crying.

            When I said I’m not mature enough is that what triggered the conversation is that I lost my mind, argue with him and ask if he will not apologize too for also losing his mind. I blocked his fone number on my cell phone. He suspected. Then he checked. He was right. And even being that obvious I tried to deny “how come it was blocked, it does not make sense”.

            Who is the child then? He was mature enough to let it pass. After all, he wants harmony and peace too. I was the one provoking more, the one that wanted clarification.

            God, are really out there relationships that doesn’t make you feel oppressed? That make you be grateful for being alive?

            Like

            Reply

            • Try not to be hard on yourself, you’re stuck in the middle of a life storm, and you’re doing the best that you can to deal with it. Cut yourself slack and give yourself some breathing space.

              If your family keep criticising you for one thing or another, it’s important not to do that to yourself too as the relationship you have with yourself affects the relationship you have with others in the same way that your relationship with others affects how you relate to yourself.

              Sometimes the oppression we feel in our relationships with others comes as much from ourselves as it does from them, and can be eased by how we treat ourselves. When you’ve had a run-in with one of your family members you need to come back to yourself and feel supported from within – that makes a big difference to how you recover from difficult interactions. If when you come back to yourself, your mind is picking on you for perceived wrongs and stuff like that, then it will make everywhere and everything feel so much more oppressive. Give to yourself what you would like others to give you.

              Don’t worry too much about whether you’re mature or not, those kind of things fluctuate with the moment, one minute you can be wise and in the next you can be immature, it’s natural and normal, we’re always in the process of maturing and being immature is part of it. Maturity is what we get by having experiences, by living, being and doing, and learning from it all. Mistakes are a valuable part of the process of maturing, and making them is how we find out what works for us and what doesn’t.

              Be careful when comparing yourself to others, it’s a slippery slope, and it helps to remind yourself that we’re all different and no two people handle life in the same way even if you share blood ties.

              From what you’ve shared about your mother and brother, it sounds as though she’s made your brother responsible for solving her problems for her, running interference and protecting her from facing her issues. She’s made him take on the role of her knight in shining armor. That would explain why he seems older than you, because he’s been saddled with the issues of an adult, he’s had to give up being a child to be her caretaker. That often happens to children of narcissists, they end up being the parent to their parent and their parent behaves like a child and never grows up.

              For a quick overview of some of the ways a narcissistic parent affects their child – http://www.ehow.com/info_12264109_behavior-children-show-after-being-narcissist.html

              This is also worth a read – https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/insight-is-2020/201405/narcissistic-parents-psychological-effect-their-children

              The problem with family is that it often comes with issues which are passed down from generation to generation, and sometimes no one knows where it all started which means finding a solution is difficult, and things can get buried or ignored over the years which makes them unconscious, causing compulsions and reactions, impulses acted upon without conscious awareness.

              If your mother has a problematic relationship with her mother and her sister, and she hasn’t dealt with this consciously, worked through her issues openly (preferably in therapy) then it will play out unconsciously in her relationship with you (and others) until she faces it within herself, takes responsibility for it and deals with it. And she will pass the burden on to those closest to her in varied ways.

              Sounds as though you’ve been made into a ‘scapegoat’.

              This is an interesting take on that role – https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/traversing-the-inner-terrain/201101/the-scapegoat-identity

              As is this – http://www.lightshouse.org/the-scapegoat.html#axzz3wqIgpuzx

              When you’ve been assigned the role of scapegoat you can end up doing to yourself what the narcissists in your life are doing to you, you take on their projections, so it is important to stop, pause, and really get to know yourself. Figure out what is you and what is not you. Not you = what others are telling you is you, and insist is you even if it is nothing like you at all. They will tell you who you are without consulting you about your own identity, they’ve decided and that’s that.

              For instance – they may tell you that you hate apples. You may accept this for awhile because they say it with such authority and have evidence of your hate of apples which they keep telling you about – such as that one time you didn’t eat an apple (because you weren’t hungry or had a toothache but they don’t include context in their assumptions). One day you decide to find out for yourself if you really hate apples or not, and you eat one, find you like it and realise that their story about your identity is wrong. If you decide to tell them they’re wrong about you, they’ll come down hard on you and won’t listen – they always think they know you better than you know yourself (because their version of you is one they’ve created). You could eat an entire barrel of apples in front of them and they would still insist that you hate apples and add that the only reason you’re eating them is to annoy them. You’ll never get them to see you as you are as it’s all about them and not about you – however you can see yourself as you are and make that a haven for yourself.

              Know thyself and to hell with them and their view of you.

              Your view of you is the one that has value.

              Your relationship with yourself is the most important relationship you will ever have and it will affect how you experience others.

              So, yes, there are relationships which won’t make you feel oppressed and which make you feel good about yourself and about being alive. Those relationships start with the one you have with yourself, and ripple out from there. You will meet many people who offer you a different experience of relationships, and those will be amazing meetings… you do have to sort out your relationship with yourself because if you’ve grown up in a narcissistic environment then you may sabotage the good relationships which come along. We get used to unhealthy relationships and healthy ones can feel strange. We get used to being prisoners and freedom can be frightening.

              What you’re experiencing now will help you in ways that at this time may seem anything but helpful. It’s pushing you to really get to know yourself, to self-reflect, and understand who you are, what you need, and so much more. One day it’ll all make sense and your hard work will be rewarded.

              Keep going and don’t give up on yourself!

              Like

              Reply

              • Again, thank you so much for your words.

                I’ll keep them in minds next times.

                And after all the reads, after finnaly knowing what really happened, I start to appreciate more the times to myself, even enjoyning being alone. I’m really grateful for that.

                Thank you.

                Like

                Reply

  14. Hi Ursula,

    Someone left a comment on a site I run about how to deal with the devouring mother, a google search led me to your website and wow its quite a cup of tea 🙂

    I really dunno how to put this but some of your content really syncs with what we do. Take a look at the site FractalEnlightenment.com we have a good reach and was wondering if you would consider being either a guest or full time contributor for us. There are some benefits to it it as well, let me know what you think.

    There’s no need to publish this comment, you can respond to me via email as well. I particularly think you would fill the space that was created when this author decided to stop writing ~ http://fractalenlightenment.com/author/lauren you can browse through her articles here.

    If you think you would like to do something with us hit be back. Thank you, ❤ Clyde

    Like

    Reply

    • Hi Clyde,

      Thank you very much 🙂

      I’m publishing your comment because you shared your site, and people often peruse the comments on my blog looking for something which may be located elsewhere, and your website looks like an awesome treasure trove. I’m going to enjoy checking it out in depth.

      Wow! Thank you for the wonderful compliment!

      It’ll take awhile for your offer to sink into my skull before I can think about it seriously. What I do here is just me scribbling my scattered thoughts down, having conversations with myself out loud, trying to figure stuff out, doing things my way which can be higgledy-piggledy. I haven’t really considered doing it any other way, a few people have asked if I’m planning on writing a book, which is lovely, but I tend to just shrug and smile and keep doing things as I do them, rather messily and randomly.

      I’m not sure what to say, other than… WOW, again, and thank you 😀

      Like

      Reply

  15. I am on the recovering end…hallelujah! My sadness is finding this site only recently, when I SO could had used it for support a long time ago. Just knowing others have forged trails ahead of me would have been an awesome blessing. First I would I would like to say I am surprised at your description of yourself, as you sound a lot like me. Its comical to recognize it! I truly am becoming myself again! Woohoo!
    I am 52 yrs old, with 2 children with my N, both girls, 13 and 9. I was with him for 13 yrs…about 12 too many. He is 9 yrs younger than myself. I tried to stay for the children and realized it was too toxic for the kids. I am a Christian and I struggled with facing a divorce. As you know physical abuse gets more attention and help…but the NPD stuff…not so much. My N was also in law enforcement. When he finally got the woman he always loved, it wasn’t so difficult for him to actually leave. (His childhood crush). She also didn’t mind buying his lies that our marriage was on the rocks (she was in contact with him from day one of our relationship), and she was an ever presence. Now, without too much pity from me, I know he has already tipped his hand of his real self. My regrets are that I never thought such a thing could happen to me…but I comfort myself in knowing they are wolves in sheep’s clothing…and ANYONE can be snookered. But above that, my children. He is such a great manipulator, and my kids are not exempt. I live in Florida and the judge here will likely not view what he does as enough to keep the children away from him. So I bide my time and hope this summer my oldest daughter will at least be granted the choice to not go visit him if she chooses. He will not allow them to participate in their extracurricular activities if they interfere with his visitation. (He lives 6 hrs away) I wonder…what have I done? So far, your site is the best I’ve come across…for what I am looking for. Thank you. I had wrestled with the idea of starting my own blog. I want to help others in these situations. Other blogs I have come across sounded like some of the posters might not really have NPD, and you addressed that there might be those who are narcissistic but not to the degree of a personality disorder, and I am glad you did.
    I have an Associate’s Degree in psychology and wanted to go at least for a bachelor’s in forensic psychology…and have decided I’m about too old for it to do me any good…but I still might try for it anyway…maybe even on to a master’s…we’ll see! While I was going to school..with HIM still there, it was SOOOOO difficult! He hated it. Then he told me that he would sue me through the divorce for alimony based on my potential income from my Associate’s.
    What I mainly wanted to get across after I gave background info was how even though we finally got a divorce last November and had been separated since 2013, I have continued to be harassed. It’s a good thing his 1st ex didn’t have texting when they were going through theirs! She got lucky! No contact? Not when you have children! The courts tell you they expect for you to “talk” regarding the children. That is his ‘in.’ He doesn’t seem to realize that ‘talking’ means ‘I will be late meeting you today for visitation,’ or ‘one of the kids fell, hit her head and we are going to a dr.’ For him, it means anything where the girls can be mentioned then is about talking regarding the children. Like, “when can we come to an agreement for this divorce so you can move on, and oh yeah, I want to talk to the girls tonight.” …and then for the next few hours I am harassed about why I (NOT!!!) won’t settle. I have finally had to absolutely not respond AT ALL, to get him to back off. Even 2 attempts at a restraining order did not back him up. Even still, he forces me to respond when he says something like, “Are you going to talk to me about visitation this weekend? If you don’t respond, I will do whatever I want.” Dear God people! Will it EVER END!?!?!? (Not till they are 18…and even then, I doubt it, I say)
    A good way of zeroing in on whether you have a true NPD on your hands…
    1. I say all the time that I believe he loves his kids….he just loves himself more.
    2. I told him that he just wanted me to put him on a pedestal and worship him, and he said, what’s wrong with that?
    3. I said you just want me to shut my mouth, put a smile on my face, agree with everything you say, and he said I was supposed to do just that.
    4. He wanted me to do things against my moral grain and when I told him I was no longer going to do those things, he claimed it was just an excuse to get out of it/I didn’t love him/something was wrong with me/I was crazy.

    The marriage came to a prompt split thereafter….

    but he couldn’t leave till he had his hook in the other supply. He hated being with me…but he wouldn’t leave me alone. What a contradiction. And that’s the way it goes with a N.

    Thanks for listening!

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you very much for sharing 🙂

      Congratulations on your recovery, it can take a long time to get there due to all the complications which are a part of a relationship with a narcissist. The most important thing is to be gentle with yourself, don’t look back at your past self with regret, the if only’s can distract and detract from the here and now. The choices which you made then belong to the you who you were then, be compassionate towards that past self as your experiences have nourished the strength, resolve, and wisdom which you have in the present.

      When it comes to dealing with a narcissist we all make mistakes, and we eventually learn from those mistakes. That kind of learning is very valuable, and provides support and protection. The power of personal experience is inestimable.

      Being caught in a legal battle with a narcissist is probably one of the worst scenarios to be in. They never think the law applies to them, and will twist it, bend it, stretch it to its limits, abuse it, break it, and somehow get away with it, often on a technicality or because lawyers and judges, like most people, can’t believe that people such as narcissists exist. They seem to be characters from fiction rather than real people. Narcissists have a knack for getting others to excuse their behaviour – this is partly due to the cognitive dissonance others experience when in the presence of a narcissist. They create chaos which confuses people, and while people are confused they get away with whatever they’re up to.

      With children involved, the situation is even harder because a narcissist parent thinks their children are their property to be used as they see fit. Being the child of a narcissist is like being an object they own which no one else can have, a toy they sometimes play with and then shove in a box when it breaks, or some trophy they put on a shelf to show off to their audience.

      I understand your concern for your daughters and your desire to protect them. Growing up with a parent who is a narcissist can be very difficult, and in a situation which involves a divorce narcissists often use their children as ‘weapons’ in their fight with their spouse, and the children can get torn apart by being stuck in the middle. It is worth remembering that although their father is a narcissist, their mother is not and you will make all the difference to their well-being just by being yourself. Having a healthy, loving, caring relationship with you will give them a strong sense of themselves, and the things you do to heal and recover will get passed along to them naturally. They will learn a lot from observing you, how you deal with your ex, and will gain from your strength and wisdom. You can’t stop them from seeing him, being exposed to him, and this is perhaps for the best because they’ve already had many years around him, what you can do is give them a safe, nurturing environment when they are with you where they can be themselves, discover their own personal power, and feel confident in their ability to deal with life’s challenges. Share the wealth of your recovery with them, let them see the joy of being true to yourself.

      This is an interesting article by a psychologist who writes a lot about being in a relationship with a narcissist, and being a child of a narcissist – https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-legacy-distorted-love/201205/it-s-all-about-me-recovery-adult-children-narcissist

      In answer to – Will it ever end? – you know that the answer is – No, it never ends – because the narcissist’s wound never heals. They are driven by their inner turmoil to keep going and going, making life hell for others, although they don’t see it that way, they see it as others making life hell for them, and what they do as ‘defending themselves’ from others, they see themselves as a hero in a world full of villains. Once they’ve had a relationship with you, they’ve merged with you, you have become a part of their ego, and there is always something to keep them coming back to you, to stop you from letting go and moving on, to keep them stuck to you and you stuck in their version of reality. They feed on the drama which they create. They can only feel safe in their own existence if everyone around them is reacting to them. They poke and prod you to get a reaction, and will keep at it until you react – your reaction is a confirmation of their existence. But they’re not happy with merely having their existence confirmed, they also need lots of added extras – everything he does is designed to get that added extra.

      One of those is the need to feel powerful, because most narcissists feel powerless underneath the facade – it’s the kind of powerlessness which pushes them to gain power by any means necessary. To have power over others gives them the impression that they can control their environment, and they are desperate to control their environment as they are frightened of what might happen.

      For instance, your ex’s attitude towards your studies is a sign of his fear of what would happen if you got your Associate’s degree. That degree would give you personal power which threatened his hold over you, and if he lost his hold over you his version of reality might come tumbling down. Even now with the divorce he’s still trying to stop you from getting the degree, and he’s using a typical method which narcissists instinctively opt for – passing on their wound to others – he’s making you afraid of what will happen if you get the degree. He’s threatening to use your accomplishments against you, to punish you for your success, and encouraging you not to accomplish anything to stay safe (so he can keep you where he wants you, thus he can feel safe).

      This article is one of the best I’ve read on narcissism – http://energeticsinstitute.com.au/narcissism/ – it explains it in depth and provides a lot of useful information.

      This is some advice on how to talk with a narcissist – http://www.psytalk.info/articles/narcissist.html

      It’s also worth reading about ‘control freaks’, as narcissists are usually control freaks.

      Sharing your story with others via a blog is a great idea. It is deeply healing to give voice to your story, through writing about your experiences you validate yourself, acknowledge your pain, your side of the experience, and improve your relationship with yourself, supporting and nourishing who you are and have been. Through writing you will discover a wealth within. It helps in ways that are subtle, profound and sometimes amazing 🙂 It will also connect you with others who has a similar story, and you will help them as they will also help you. It’s a wonderful way to turn pain into personal power, and find the blessing within what feels like a curse.

      I would encourage you to go for it and definitely go for the bachelor’s degree, the way you talked about it shows a personal passion which wants to bloom. Forget about being too old for it! We’re never too old to pursue our passions, to learn and expand our horizons, and do what makes us feel alive, what affirms our selves. If for nothing else, do it because your narcissist told you not to 😉

      Btw, in that list you made about ‘zeroing in’ – what your narcissist told you about what he wanted from you is a key to his ‘weak spots’. He pretty much told you exactly how to manipulate him. Narcissists do that all the time. When dealing with a narcissist it is worth keeping those things in mind as it can ease interactions with them for us.

      Best wishes on your continued recovery and discovery of how wonderful it is to be yourself! Take good care of yourself!

      Like

      Reply

  17. I am interested in finding out how to help my tween/teenage kids to heal from narcissistic abuse. I divorced the narc, but he has shared custody and my kids are having some problems. Do you know of resources about how to turn the effect of narcissistic abuse around, while they are still young (middle school aged)? Or do you have any ideas? I cannot openly speak about the ex being bad and having done bad things, the court system frowns on that… but they could read and learn themselves if I knew where to point them. I am very concerned that one of my children learns to develop more empathy and the other learns to not shut down and self destruct.

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      As you probably already have found through searching, most of the resources for children of narcissists online are aimed at adult children of narcissists (ACoNs). There are some very excellent resources and forums for ACoNs, but most of them contain information which may not be suitable for children.

      There is one site which is designed for families, specifically to help parents help their children deal with their emotions, and it has a lot of good information, including about NPD which explains how a narcissistic parent affects the family dynamic and family members, as well as forms for kids to fill out to help them figure out how they are feeling:

      http://www.angriesout.com/

      This is about NPD and the family – http://www.angriesout.com/grown17.htm

      You’re in a difficult situation. A divorce is a stressful time for everyone in a family, add a narcissist to the equation and it can be even more hurtful and harmful, becoming a battle which never ends as a narcissist does not stop playing games even after the legal process is over and things have been settled. Much depends on whether the divorce is something which the narcissist agreed with or not as to how they behave during and afterwards – which includes how they treat and use their children. A typical narcissist will use their children as pawns in their war against their spouse.

      It’s actually a good thing that the court system frowns upon parents telling their children what is bad about the other parent – this is due to the increasing awareness of the effects of parental alienation on children.

      This is an article about the effects of divorce on a child – http://www.angriesout.com/kids4.htm

      This is an important point from the article to remember – “Your child is half of the other parent. If you criticize your ex, your child will feel ashamed of half of him or herself.”

      Even if what you would tell your children about their father is true it would be more harmful to them than it would be helpful. It is very painful for a child to be caught between their parents, a divorce can be a very difficult time for them as they often feel powerless. Some of what you may be noticing in your children at this time is them coming to terms with a huge change in the structure of their lives. You may have wanted this divorce and it may be what is right and healthy for you because of what you have been through in your relationship with your ex, but your children may have a different experience to yours of your relationship, of their father, of the family dynamic. What they need is time to deal with it, and also a sense of safety and stability after such a big change.

      Try not to worry too much about what you think they may have inherited from their father, or how their father’s narcissism has affected them, instead focus more on loving and accepting them as they are. Being the non-narcissistic parent means that you have the ability to balance things out for them, to counteract the effects of a narcissistic parent simply by being a loving, strong, stable and calm influence in their lives. Your love for them will go a long way to giving them the support and guidance they need to grow into happy and healthy individuals.

      Seeing a family therapist might help both you and them cope with all the confusion and changes, and a good therapist will be able to help with issues resulting from narcissistic abuse.

      Best wishes!

      Like

      Reply

  18. Maybe it is the ‘paranoid’ witch-hunt you stated in one of your posts, and though it doesn’t have to do with real people I still find myself looking for NPD traits in fictional characters as well.

    In one of those I happen to notice the difference between a healthy narcissist (as in the stereotype one) and someone with NPD.
    There is a cartoon that is becoming pretty popular in Japan recently about a family with sextuplets brothers; they’re all the same looking but have different personalities. Out of the six there is one that if you just first glance at him you’ll say he is a narcissist, he’s basically the one that is always seeing flirting with the girls, saying that he is the coolest guy, and admiring himself in the mirror. Then, there is the other brother that is always in the phone doing whoever knows what, putting a cute façade, and smiling innocently.

    However, as the series goes and the viewer starts to know more about them, you see that the first brother is always worried about the well-being of his other siblings to the extreme extend of risking his own, but he is also the most bullied by them (similar to what occurs with Johnny Bravo, curiously). Then the second brother is the one that always hide things from his other siblings, try to not associate with them because they’ll spoil the good image he built for himself, but in front of others put an act of good brother, and in some sense almost disposed of his brothers when they were ill. Outside he is this cute-charismatic persona, but is known by his siblings as a ‘dry monster’.

    In terms of stereotype or illustration I find these two very helpful, more so because I couldn’t tell much of the other four brothers, even though I could analyze them too, these two pop up to me.

    I know it is pop culture, and there are plenty of examples in it, I’m not sure if it was in a comment of your blog that I found it, or in your Tumblr, or in another blog, but once I read an interesting analysis of the relationship between Brennan and Montenegro from the series Bones. It made an impact in me because I could perfectly see the perfect smile of Brennan’s supposedly BFF in my former one, like the SAME, literally, exactly the same funny smile.
    This one:

    And so when looking to these two brothers from an illustrative perspective I begin to see more clearly what makes an NPD, and what makes the narcissist as they’re portrayed in common sense. And even more, they’re solid three dimensional characters, the ‘good brother’ is not always good, he has his bad moments, and the ‘dry monster’ is not always mean towards them. There is not a ‘good’ and ‘bad’ in the series, there are human beings and the audience interprets them as they please.

    At this moment I’m rambling, but there’s just another thing I wanted to point out, this dialogue:

    2) Hey, brother. Recently I have being worried about something.

    1) Ha, It is good for you to be worried, and this applies to me too? ha ha.

    2) What is this thing called ‘painful’?

    1) What?

    2) Everyone points at me and say ‘painful’, however I’ve never punched them neither kicked them, so why is everyone feeling hurtful?

    1) Ah, it’s not relevant, don’t mind it.

    2) uh?

    1) Because ‘painful’ is a part of you, if it was not there, it’ll not be funny anymore.

    2) But I do not live to hurt people, so why, why this person that loves everybody happens to hurt them, is this what they call ‘the hedgehogs dilemma’?

    1) oh, it hurts, it hurts, it hurts.

    2) Why? What is it now?

    1) ‘Cus it hurts, please stop the cheesiness.

    2) So what should I do?

    1) First you need to stop that mannerism.

    2) Mannerism?

    1) Yes, the ‘painful’ symbol.

    2) I see. This way?
    (takes off jacket).

    1) What with that tank top? Printed your own face? ha ha It hurts so much.

    2) Why you’re hurtful?

    1) Take off your sunglasses.

    (Takes them off).

    1) What, contact lenses? Save me! It hurts, it hurts, ha ha ha ha, ouch I broke a rib.

    He exasperates upon hearing this.
    2) Why I have to be such a sinful, guilty guy, hurting others? I’m cornered, an eight shout outs! I just have to live alone, a lonely, loneliness life!

    Is surprised.
    1) Uh? It did not hurt. Why? Oh, I see, my body get used to it. Because of your shitty tank top and your shitty sunglasses combined, it get along with my body’s system. Ha ha ha it became a solution to your worries.
    1) You don’t have to change yourself, it is good “to fool around your senses” (as in “don’t listen to your surroundings”).

    2) I see. It is a relief then.

    Other brother appears from somewhere and shouts, concerned.
    6) What is a relief?

    The cartoon is divided in little skits and this one ended here. The number two is the common sense stereotypical narcissist, though he doesn’t get why he hurts others he is still worried that he hurts them. But what got me in this dialogue is that he was hurting others solely by being himself, and this intrigued me, more so because of the answer the brother number one gave to him in the end. In fact, since the beginning he didn’t want his brother to change himself, but tried to help anyway. The number six, however having one line, is the true NPD in the series.

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing, that’s brilliant! 🙂

      I don’t think that finding NPD traits in fictional characters is part of the ‘paranoid’ side of having been in a relationship with a narcissist, in fact I think it’s part of the phase where we figure out the puzzles which that kind of relationship leaves us with.

      The ‘paranoid witch hunt’ side of things is more about real life relationships, where we end up thinking that everyone we meet is a narcissist because we’re so focused on narcissistic behaviour in people that it becomes the only aspect of them that we see, and the moment we notice a trait which seems NPD-ish we label them a narcissist (a witch) and burn them at the stake. Because of our experience with a narcissist, the pain it caused us, and the fear of repeating the mistakes we made with that person, we end up seeing the world in the black and white of narcissist and non-narcissist, with a bias on seeing more people as narcissists than non-narcissists due to being overly anxious and cautious. That kind of paranoia is normal and fades as we figure out our own story and become more confident in our ability to trust ourselves when it comes to relationships.

      I often notice NPD in fictional characters, and it’s an interesting way to observe and learn.

      Narcissists are a common TV Trope which the creators of shows use to give contrast between characters. The narcissist has grown quite popular, and many shows often have one as a central character, sometimes more than one. There’s an interesting website which delves into all the diverse types of plots and characters you’ll find in fiction, and also lists some of the most classic uses of Tropes in TV and Film. This is the site with a link to one of their pages on the Narcissist – http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Narcissist

      The piece about Bones which you mention comes from a blog which is a Bones Fan site – https://decodingbones.wordpress.com/tag/angela-montenegro/ – I found it by searching for Angela Montenegro + narcissist after watching a couple of seasons of the show and getting increasingly wound up by the character. I eventually couldn’t continue watching the show because she was such a classic Covert narcissist and I found it agonising to see the other characters making excuses for her and letting her get away with with the way she behaved. I had flashbacks to my own experience with the narcissists in my life, and decided that at least this time I could easily go NC by not watching the show 😉

      ps. That smile is one I’ve seen in the narcs I’ve known, I call it ‘smug face’, also known as Smartest Person in the Room (syndrome) face.

      I’ve had that happen with a couple of other shows. I couldn’t watch anymore of Breaking Bad because the wife reminded me too much of my mother. However I’ve really enjoyed shows like Suits which is almost wall to wall Narcissists, with a bit of Sociopath thrown in.

      Japanese cartoons are wonderful, and often very psychologically intricate. Films like Spirited Away have captured a range of types of personalities and how they affect us, what is behind their behaviour and so much more. I used to watch quite a few Japanese cartoons as a child, some of which were like soap operas, and they often helped me to understand human behaviour, including my own. I was obsessed with Saint Seiya for awhile, and loved Candy Candy.

      If this cartoon is helping you understand your own experience, answers questions which you have, and shows you the ins and outs of NPD, how those who have it experience it and any other aspect which you want to know more about, then it’s a perfect vehicle for you – fiction is created by humans who have real life relationships and they often put into their works of fiction what they find in their real life, sometimes accentuating details which we may miss during our daily interactions. It’s actually a very good way to see what we may have missed.

      Follow the leads you find and see where they go – that cartoon sounds very insightful, the dialogue you shared is fascinating and your take of it is awesome. Thank you for that!

      Like

      Reply

      • I just read another view on the character that I mentioned but stating others aspects I did not consider. You said that people tend to have narcissistic behaviours at some degree and that is perfectly human. So what exactly makes NPD? Is It a fine line?

        “with the comment made by fujita that he’s only nice because he likes to see himself as being nice still going around and a lot of people taking this the wrong way or not knowing what to do with this information, fun fact- unless you were born with it (like me, probably), narcissism usually stems from extremely low self esteem which usually stems from mistreatment and once you become a narcissist, it tends to grow stronger and harder to break out of if said mistreatment continues, since it’s more of a defensive mechanism to help deal with being disliked and to mentally block it out and ignore it because it hurts too much to accept

        we’ve seen him be blatantly mistreated by his brothers so first of all there’s that but second of all, the whole ‘being kind because he wants to be seen as kind’ thing is how literally 90% of narcissists act because for one they tend not to understand how others feel and for two, their primary concern is being liked/likable out of a deeper rooted fear of rejection, further mistreatment, etc

        go back to the scene where he confides in oso about people calling him painful and notice how he doesn’t understand it, he doesn’t like it at all, and it very clearly bothers him- he tried to change himself right then and there and was extremely relieved when oso told him he didn’t HAVE to change for once

        image is important to a narcissist but for most, it’s, again, because they want to be likeable and fear further rejection- for most, it goes deeper than just trying to be better than others or whatnot

        and on that note, notice that more than anyone, choromatsu and todomatsu are the ones who tend to put the others down for the sake of looking better- karamatsu hasn’t done this (yet, at least) so obviously he’s not that type of narcissist”

        (source: http://ddaoko.tumblr.com/post/139195913772/okay-so-regarding-selfish-narcissistic )

        This got me.

        On a side note, thank you for the link of the blog that analyses Bones. I read it sometime ago and it is still very helpful; of almost all the fictional relationships I know about the more illustrative and that I can relate to (in the case of friendship) is the one of Brennan and Montenegro. And I didn’t know this smile is like a pattern, interesting.

        Like

        Reply

  19. Hi, I read your Bio. I am also on the tail end of a narcissistic marriage of 16 years,. Two children. My N? Was my wife. I say was because I finally had the courage to move out. February 22nd, 2015 I was falsely accused of spousal abuse and spent three days in Los Angeles Mens Jail. I was RO , released and all charges dropped. She did manage to file a restraining order against me which was included our children. It was for a whole year. I did not make a fuss. I did not go to court to amend the order. I left it in place and have used it as a basis to move to a healthier life. March 17th 2016 the restraining order expires. I filed for my divorce just last week. The process server was a friend and he said, and I quote: “You should have seen the look on her face”. It was like she saw a ghost. Well, I got no satisfaction in anything when it came to my N. She managed to deliver some extremely heavy blows to my Ego. And in the process used our children to lie to everyone. My N is classic. So I know that I am not accusing her of being an N. She is. Every thing I read since discovering the disorder was on point, Gas Lighting, Denial, Crazy Making, Sexual deviant, Constant Validation. Abusive child hood where her father physically abused everyone because he drank. I think I suffer from PTSD when it comes time to talk to our children as they are unhappy with her. Anyway, to anyone reading this, if you suspect you are with anyone that you think is a narcissist, get out. Leave and don’t think for one minute that you can change them. They don’t change. On the contrary, they are always changing their friends…..

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      It can be mind-boggling dealing with a narcissist, especially when they’re on the attack. They’ll use anything, everything, and anyone to get at you, they can be relentless, and they often see themselves as being the one who has been wronged therefore what they do to you is justified in their mind, and they can’t see any other side of the story except the one they’re telling themselves and everyone else.

      The hardest part will always be your children, as they will keep you connected to your narcissist, and they will be the chink in your armor through which she can get at you no matter how far away you get from her. Through them you will once again feel helpless and powerless against her NPD behaviour.

      If you can create a space around you when you are with them where she is forgotten for awhile by all of you, you will give all of you a much needed break from her antics and influence. Those moments without her as a focal point, where all of you can just be yourselves, discuss your needs, likes, dislikes, anything which is about you and not about her, are life-savers when it comes to having to deal with a narcissist in the long term. You children will be very fed up of being used by her, so giving them a haven where they don’t feel the burden of having a narcissist parent will be good for them and also good for you.

      Best wishes on the divorce. Take good care of yourself, make sure that you have a support system in place.

      Like

      Reply

  20. Hi Ursula, my name is Maria and I’m also the child of Narcissist.
    Thank you heaps for your info on Narcissistic personalities, it helps a lot. It’s a great reassurance that I’m not going insane. Unfortunately it took me over 40 years of my very own life until I realized that my mother is the one.
    I knew she was difficult but I never connected the dots. I was “made” believed that she is the greatest victim of all times because she has a weak health (lies in most cases) and because my “evil” father divorced her (lucky bastard! sorry for the language) with two children (I was 14 and my brother was 7). The funniest thing in all that that I was basically brought up by the grandparents in their place (I spent 4 days a week with them and only friday night and weekend at parents place until the age of 14 when my grandmother died and I fully moved in with my mother when my dad left her poor self). From that moment things got really, really bad with constant emotional and physical abuse (couldn’t hit my mother back, could I? I’m an everlasting-stupid-lost-cause-evil that has to be put at bay and she is such a fragile being, except she was armed with whatever handy was available) from her until a couple years later when we moved all together to my grandfather’s place. Things got a bit breathable as she got busy working a lot and I grew up fast into working/studying/less time at home until I married and moved away at the age of 28. You’d say – Out of jail card. YAY! Freedom! Unfortunately, I’m an idiot. Instead of educating myself I chose to forgive and forget. As usual – it fired back.
    How it all came to the point that she came living with me and my family a year ago – is a very long story. But it has to end for the sake of all of us. My husband and I are suffering but we are reading and reading and teaming up a lot and I’m grateful to no ends that my husband is my support in such a difficult time. I’m glad and extremely lucky that my 14 years old son is a smart guy who saw through her much earlier than we are and even warned me that she is manipulative and self-centered. My mother hates my son because he is impenetrable. In her eyes – he is the biggest evil of all times (This is talking about straight A student who is interested in computer engineering since he could read. To be honest – he is a good kid in general, a bit cheeky but he is a teenager and has a cheery personality, where she got that evil from is a big mystery, unless you count him calling on all her tricks on her straight in the face – that’s where the evil spreads it’s wings!). She tries to manipulate him indirectly but it doesn’t work, thank God!
    Just right now I’m going through a really difficult process of “throwing” her out of my life and it’s really sad, painful and pathetic process with God knows how it will all ends… Anyways, thank you, just thank you from the bottom of my heart.
    I read a lot about people who suffer this emotional (well, financial draining as well) abuse from a partner but when it is your very own mother, I find it so confusing and sad, really really sad that giving a person everything she wants (we are door mats basically) – unfortunately doesn’t make her happy. She cannot achieve even a single moment of happiness no matter what. I can’t just cut it off like it never happened. It’s difficult but I’m not giving up. 🙂
    I apologise for such a long story but talking to somebody who understands and knows whats it like to have such a parent – it helps a lot. I’m crying while typing this, not just because of sadness and difficulty of the whole situation but because of somewhat happiness that people pull it through, there is life beyond that and that if we are not standing up for ourselves it would only get worse.
    Stay well and thank you very much a lot!
    Maria

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      It’s always the way, once you start telling your story everything you’ve been holding back and keeping to yourself comes flowing out. It’s important to tell your story as it becomes clearer in the telling of it. Much of the confusion is caused by the traffic inside the mind which gets jammed up, you’re silent and stoic on the outside but inside the horns are blaring, as you speak about it the traffic gets moving and frees up space within to perceive yourself and your narcissist in a more succinct manner.

      It’s very difficult to figure out what to do when the narcissist in your life is your parent. There are so many threads which get tied up in a knot inside and outside. The most perplexing one is the concept that a child must love their parent no matter what the parent is like and how they treat their child – this is something which the narcissist parent drums into their child from the get go and gets buried deep within. A narcissist parent turns the parent/child bond into bondage. Love, narcissist style, is Stockholm Syndrome.

      You’re definitely not an ‘idiot’ for forgiving and forgetting. This is a very human thing to do, and it can be a great gift in relationships. Narcissists can turn anything good about us into something bad, they can make us regret being caring and considerate.

      Even if you had done loads of research on NPD and filled your mind to bursting with information and do’s and don’t, chances are you might have still chosen to give your mother another chance. What we know doesn’t always translate into what we do – what we do is often driven by the heart’s desire to find love even where our mind may know that it doesn’t grow.

      I would hazard a guess that you felt under intense pressure, perhaps partly from society, to make your relationship with your mother work. You felt that since you were the real adult in the relationship that it was up to you to make peace. The real idiot isn’t you, it’s your mother for blowing the opportunity you gave her to renew her relationship with you, and for leaving you regretting your gesture of love and blaming yourself for what is actually her fault. You offered her a gift and she didn’t appreciate it, as usual nothing is ever good enough for a narcissist, but everyone else pays for their shitty view of life.

      One of the elements which probably played a part in forgiving and forgetting, and allowing her to come and live with you is – Most children of narcissists feel responsible for their parents. The roles were often reversed from the start with the narcissist parent taking on the role of the child and the child being pressured into playing the role of the parent.

      A narcissist parent makes their child responsible for their happiness. They tend to create a quest for their child – a quest to win their love. Their love is always conditional, but they demand that the love of others be unconditional. To prove that you are worthy of their love, to prove that you love them unconditionally (and are willing to sacrifice yourself for them), to win their love you must meet certain goals, one of which is to cure them of their chronic misery.

      You have to make them happy, not just any kind of happy but an idyllic, idealistic perfectionist’s vision of pure and total happiness.

      This is impossible to do, but because children are magical thinkers, and because their parents are their whole world when they are very young, they believe that they can find a way to bring happiness to their sad parent, and they don’t realise at that age that the sadness of their parent is the parent’s problem not the child’s.

      The narcissist parent often drip-feeds the child with blame, which sometimes takes the form of – If it wasn’t for you… (Games People Play by Eric Berne). If it wasn’t for you (their child) the narcissist parent would be happy, if it wasn’t for you (their child) the narcissist parent would have no one to love them, if it wasn’t for you (their child) the narcissist parent would have no reason to live. They make you both very important to them and completely insignificant – which is a problem that can never be solved other than to abandon it, cut ties with the parent, but that is complex to do.

      Another game the narcissists plays with their child is – Yes, but… (http://www.ericberne.com/games-people-play/why-dont-you-yes-but/). Basically you have to solve their problems for them, that’s your ‘job’ as their child, but… none of your solutions work because the narcissist doesn’t really want their problems solved as their problems get them lots of attention, and narcissistic supply. As long as they have this problem you will feel obliged to keep caring for them, trying to solve their problem for them, and you will never abandon them.

      They’re the patient who goes into therapy not to be cured or have their issues clarified, but to have someone listen to them, care about them, pay attention to them, make them the centre of their universe, only think all about them and their problems, makes excuses for them (they love diseases and disorders which excuse their behaviour and make them seem like tragic victims who just can’t help themselves and force you to put up with them because nothing is ever their fault), be stuck with them in their endless drama and also give them loads of tips on how to make their drama even more complicated than it was before.

      Narcissists don’t actually want to be happy, if they wanted to be happy… they’d be happy. If they get happiness, they tend to turn it into unhappiness. With my mother what made her happy was being miserable all the time. Misery made her feel important.

      There’s always a part of us which hopes that our narcissist parent will grow up, and become the kind of parent we’d always wished they’d been – partly so that we can finally be their child instead of their surrogate parent. We also hope that once, just once, they’d love us – it’s a deeply embedded wish and it can creep up on us even when we know they will never be anything other than a selfish, self-centred, self-obsessed person who makes everyone unhappy and bitches about everyone making them unhappy, doesn’t know the first thing about love, and sucks all the joy out of life. We keep hoping they’ll snap out of it, but they never do. And they keep us stuck in their hell because of our hope.

      Hope, love, kindness, compassion… all those human things which healthy people appreciate are never appreciated by narcissists and they make others regret the very things which should not be a source of regret.

      The best way to deal with a narcissist is to stop feeling responsible for them. Their problems are not your fault, not yours to solve. This can be tricky to do because they never stop trying to pass their wound onto you to heal for them. You can’t heal their wound for them.

      You’re in a very difficult predicament. You know that, your husband knows it, your son knows it – actually your son is in some ways the one to follow in this matter. He has a fresh pair of eyes, he’s an independent thinker, he feels free to be himself and speak his mind, speak from his heart, and he has a healthy attitude (you’re obviously a great mother). He doesn’t let your mother get away with her usual games. Sometimes the best compliment a narcissist can give you is hating you and calling you evil. You’re ‘evil’ because you’re saying ‘No’ to them. It’s as simple as that to become evil in their eyes and mind.

      Your mother is an incredibly lucky person who shits and pisses on that luck. She surrounded by great people and all she does is try to destroy them, bring them low down to her level of misery – misery loves company and hates to be alone. You took her in, gave her a roof over her head, a soft bed to sleep in, food to eat, have given her financial support, have put up with her terrible behaviour and even though she’s horrible, ungrateful, mean, rude… things which would get anyone else thrown out of your house, yet you haven’t thrown her out and told her to get the eff away from you and never darken your doorstep again. She’s very lucky and you’re an incredibly patient and generous family.

      What she really needs is a major reality check, but those don’t tend to happen to narcissists or work when you try and give them one.

      Tell me – What would you like to do? If you could do anything to sort out this situation and you could just do it… what would that be?

      Like

      Reply

  21. Hi Ursula
    It’s been a while since I posted as I was trying hard to move on, it’s been a year since my ex and I split (I’m sure she’s a narcissist but as I’m not a psychologist I’m unsure) She still messages regular and I always answer but don’t give her any attention in my replies, the thing is its been a year and I still think about her everyday is that normal should’nt I have moved on by now? I’m finding it hard I’ve had offers of dates and yet compare everyone to her and Noone comes close, everything reminds me of her which keeps her in my head and under my skin is there anything I can do to stop thinking about her?
    Thanks for your help

    Like

    Reply

    • Hi John,

      It can be difficult to ascertain if someone is a narcissist, has NPD, is just very narcissistic or if that’s just our experience of them. Since we’re not trying to diagnose them for treatment, the label of narcissist is more about understanding the impact of our relationship with them upon us, clarifying for ourselves the dynamic and experience which we’ve had with them. The label we give to them is for us rather than for them. It gives us a place to start figuring out the things which have confused us.

      Working through our personal pain may take us down many routes in search of healing.

      Recovering from a relationship with a narcissist (or even with a non-narcissist) can take a long time depending on many factors. There is no specific time frame for moving on. You move on at your own pace, often in small shifts, until you’re ready to let go.

      There are many things which can keep us stuck, which we may obsess over, they usually point to something which we need to resolve within ourselves, the other person is a vessel for a personal puzzle.

      I wrote a post about something along these lines recently – https://anupturnedsoul.wordpress.com/2016/04/24/are-you-obsessed-with-a-narcissist/

      There’s an interesting book which I enjoyed reading awhile ago about the deeper aspects of relationships, the ties which bind us to others, this is an article by the author of the book – https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199403/soul-mates

      You might find this blog helpful – https://apensiveheart.wordpress.com/ – it’s by a man who is recovering from a relationship with a female narcissist, he shares his ups and downs in his effort to move on. He also speaks about the difficulty to date again after such an intense relationship.

      Sometimes it helps to examine the thoughts which rise up when you’re thinking about her – are those thoughts really about her or about someone else, something else. Is it her or the idea of her, of this special someone that she seemed to be. Or is it about the you that you were when you were with her. What is it that is really in your head and under your skin. What is it specifically. What is it that others are missing which she had. What are the details that are missing.

      With a narcissist it’s often about the loss of a dream come true, an illusion which seemed real. The narcissist seemed to be the ideal person for you, partly because narcissists in the early stages of meeting them find out who we want them to be and become that. Being the embodiment of our ideal is part of their facade, they want us to love them and what better way to achieve that then by being everything we’ve ever wanted in a person, but they can’t keep it going, cracks start to appear.

      Sometimes it’s the lack of closure, of resolution which keeps us returning to them in our minds. So many unanswered questions, so many what if’s, why’s, doubts, and concerns that keep nagging at us, and keep us tied to them. The closer you get to a narcissist the more they withhold, and because they withhold they keep you chasing after this elusive something which is just out of reach. There isn’t anything there but the idea that there is keeps us chasing after it.

      The loss of a great love can be devastating and often requires more time to deal with it than the love lasted.

      Give yourself the time and space to come to terms with things in your own way, don’t pressure yourself to do what you are not ready to do. You’ll move on naturally when you are ready to do so. The pain will ease gradually. In the meantime explore that which keeps you tied to her within yourself. Ask yourself questions, find your answers. Review your ideals about love.

      A relationship with a narcissist often stirs what has been hidden within us that is seeking to be acknowledged.

      Like

      Reply

  22. Thanks Ursula as ever there is some very poignant observations there,
    My sister is always telling me that I’m looking for perfect (I always disagree and tell her I’m looking for perfect for me!) But you are right she became in my eyes my ideal and now as a single fella I’m looking for that again (even though it wasn’t real)
    I am moving on, I suppose I just wish I’d heal quicker (I sometimes think girls feel I’m holding something back or I have an issue)
    Even after a year I still think about her the bulk of my day, I long for the time I don’t.
    One day it’ll all be a distant memory
    Thanks for your support ☺

    Like

    Reply

    • Those who know us can sometimes make keen observations about us. Sometimes they’re spot on and we’re glad about it, sometimes they’re spot on and we’re sad about it, and sometimes they’re close but not spot on and they leave us with mixed feelings and thoughts as we ponder what they’ve shared. Even when they may be right the right isn’t the whole story, it’s just a small part of it – the challenge is in seeing the whole picture for ourselves.

      It would be wonderful to heal quickly from our hurts. Occasionally it happens. But as we learn from when we have physical wounds, some bruises, scratches and such take a long time to fully heal. Some leave scars which we sometimes are proud of because it means we survived and those scars tell a story about us and our life.

      You will heal, you will slowly forget a lot of what happened, she’ll gradually fade and become a distant muse. For now, accept things as they are as that is often what we need to do to move on, and it can be one of the hardest parts of the experience. When you think of her, when she comes to mind, explore what that stirs and opens up – often what we think is about others is actually about ourselves. Something we need to understand about them which helps us understand ourselves. Relationships with others are connected to our relationship with ourselves – it’s weird because we don’t often think about relating to ourselves as a friend, lover, and lifetime companion. We see that role as being something someone else will fill but in some ways that someone else is us. How we relate to ourselves tends to determine who comes into our lives, who we love and so much more.

      Give yourself the time you need. For now she’s front and centre, one day she won’t be. 🙂

      Like

      Reply

  23. I read the blog regarding why a person attracts narcissists. Your insights were the best I have found in my search. I’m going to do my own journaling and look within but you have given me a life changing vantage point. Thank you.

    Like

    Reply

  24. hi ursula..this is one post that sure hits the mark..of what i have gone through..i may be one of the lucky ones because my involvement with the N was in a ling distance relationship..social media and the current technology kept us in touch everyday..though the fairytale started becoming a “people’s court” show aa months passed..noticing the changes of behavior from my N partner..i did not mind since there was no point in arguing..but my main question and thought, how come the N loves to get close to people who just broke off with their partners..those having marital problems..and do they really want to go back to an EX? it’s a non stop search for my ex N..but why seek out an Ex? why not find someone new? and at 50years old..what are the chances of the N to finally settle?..will change of behavior be
    possible for the N..they can’t be wondering and searching for “the one” for them until they grow old..i noticed that they plan out their moves..they hate surprises..they need to be rescued when caught unaware..they can’t think for themselves..i’d like to hear your thoughts and everyone else on this..what happens to a N who is stuggling to be independent..who is still living with a N mom? and negative and probably N siblings..it’s like prison..worse than alcatraz..My ex N is struggling to break free..but can not find a stable relationship..she does not want to break the cycle..she knows what is it but its just all talk..wants to get everything in a snap..she just wants to breathe..please share your insights..

    Like

    Reply

    • Hi, and thank you for sharing 🙂

      The first rule of trying to understand a narcissist, and answer all those questions which they stir up and leave you with, is – don’t use yourself as a template and point of reference. Don’t use non-narcissistic behaviour, reasoning and logic – narcissists will not make sense if you approach them that way.

      Narcissists for the most part tend to be attracted to people who have something which they are seeking.

      Not all narcissists get close to people who have just broken off with their partners. From what you have shared of your particular narcissist it sounds like she is obsessed with her Ex – which is quite common for narcissists, especially if the ex left them or if they expected their ex to transform their life (and it didn’t happen the way they wanted it to). So she was seeking people who were in a similar scenario, either to share an obsession with an Ex with them, or try to learn from them the ability to move on – but moving on from a drama is not something narcissists do easily if they’re attached to the drama, if the drama feeds them, nourishes a fantasy, an identity and persona.

      Certain types of narcissist, mainly female ones, are lost in a world of romantic dreams, ideals. They’re a damsel in distress seeking knight in shining armor. They’re a mermaid seeking the prince who’ll make them want to leave the ocean life behind. They’re looking for Mister Darcy (Pride and Prejudice). They’re very special always looking for another very special soul mate, looking for the one… but their expectations are so impossibly high that they always end up disappointed by reality.

      When they fall in love they usually end up wrecking the love, not appreciating it or the person they love, it’s not good enough, not what they wanted, not how they expected it to be, not their dream come true, but once they’ve lost a love they may get caught up in nostalgia, fantasies of what was, the one that got away who is perfect now (but wasn’t perfect at the time), a love which died, unrequited love, etc.

      Narcissists live in fantasy, that fantasy can be about the past – they tend to only appreciate something or someone once it’s gone, from a distance. It’s safer that way. They have more control over it. They can turn something or someone from the past into anything or anyone they want to and that person or event can’t interfere with their fantasy version of it.

      If you’re in a relationship with a narcissist who has created a fantasy version of an Ex (either positively or negatively) you will constantly be in competition with that Ex because the narcissist will compare you and the fantasy Ex on a regular basis. Either you have to do better than the Ex or somehow you’re always falling short of the Ex, the Ex was perfect no one else can be as perfect as them (but the Ex wasn’t perfect before they were an Ex).

      Change of behaviour is rare in narcissists. They can appear to outwardly change, and for awhile they may be completely different, but at some point they’ll revert to whatever they were and were doing before. Their new improved self persona is an exhausting habit for them to keep up so they give up and go back to their familiar comfort zone.

      They can also appear to have insight into their condition and problems. They may describe themselves, their behaviour, their situation, their problems with perfect clarity and lucidity. They seem to understand… and then poof! the clarity, lucidity and understanding is gone. It’s partly due to the fact that most of their intelligence is intellectual and superficial. They often research issues and have a lot of ‘book’ learning (which includes reading magazines and online material about the subject of personality, pop psychology, etc) without the personal understanding to turn the ‘book’ learning into anything else.

      Covert narcissists often portray themselves as being ‘in distress’. Being held captive by some circumstance over which they have no control – if it wasn’t for this thing, obstacle, person they’d be happy, successful, in love, etc. They cry out for help and wait for someone to come to their rescue.

      If you try and help them all your attempts may fail, even though for awhile they may give the impression of succeeding – that’s usually during the ‘honeymoon’ phase of them getting to know you and involving you in their story.

      They are attached to their prison as much as they are attached to trying to escape from that prison – the drama feeds them. If they were actually freed from that prison, if you ‘saved’ her and whisked her off to your castle and kingdom… she’d soon be replaying the scenario of living in a prison and seeking to escape from it, only this time instead of her mother and siblings you would be her captor and someone else would be called in to help her escape.

      This is her story, this defines her – she may know what the problem is, she may even claim to want to fix it, but fixing it would mean losing something which is a part of who she is and she has no idea who she’d be without it, and she’s not really willing to risk that.

      She will continue as she is no matter what you do – that’s what narcissists do.

      This is an excellent article for understanding narcissism, the different types of narcissist, and the narcissistic wound – http://energeticsinstitute.com.au/narcissism/

      The insight which you already have into it – trust that!

      Like

      Reply

      • thank you for your reply..and for sharing that article..that was helpful in identifying who i am and to what i have contributed to the relationship that i had with my Ex N…she has found her way back to her Ex and i guess it was in the works while we were together..no wonder i felt rejected and felt i was on queue, my Ex N never failed to do her “part” of calling, texting me..which if we were to battle in court, she will be found not guilty..but i became what i became when things began to change..emptiness in conversations..plans for a “future” were moving backwards, putting to a stall..its like wanting to keep me at the same time wants to do her thing without me questioning…she has a total disregard of my feelings.. since we live 3000miles apart i only have my feelings and what i observe to count on..her family members though they warn me about her, do not realize her true identity…she is only perceived as a spoiled brat, a daddy’s girl and who affords to not speak to anyone for years, even to her siblings.. i must admit that she grew up to a family that controls..who are not very encouraging..who gives her the negative rather the positive…everyone has something to say to discourage, to kill one’s excitement..very hard to please people and too negative to the max..could this environment have made her what she is..? so if everyone around her controls her decisions..what can be her fate? as described in all what we read..its a cycle, a pattern..but no one really has said something about when a woman like her reaches her 60’s..with no stable future..financially..or even a partner to be by her side…if this Ex is now her current…will it last? and what types of personalities do women like her look for in a partner? from what i have learned, her Ex’s are on the submissive side..and i was the outspoken, hard-headed one who was open to her and was honest to her…i guess she never wanted someone who refused to be a mug in a cupboard…
        what are your thoughts…and i appreciate the time you spend in giving all of us your insights…

        Like

        Reply

        • You keep coming back to the issue of her age and what she is doing or not doing for someone of her age. If she is a narcissist, they usually tend to get worse with age rather than better.

          Narcissistic personality disorder does not ‘mellow’ with age.

          Midlife crisis hits them hard and tends to make them cling to the illusions of youth more than ever. Aging may cause their NPD to become more pronounced and more obvious to others. They may act out their narcissistic tendencies more aggressively than before, their sense of entitlement and grandiosity may become more in your face, they may lose touch with reality even more than before, act more erratically and the charm which usually covers it up may not be strong enough to cover it up.

          They don’t tend to do what non-narcissists do during the same phase of life, so they don’t tend to go – I’m in my 60’s now, I should put away my childish fantasies and be more practical and logical. I should settle for what I can actually have, keep my dreams and ambitions within achievable parameters, accept who I am, be comfortable with my life as it is and be happy with that. They tend to go – It’s now or never and I want it all, I want it now!

          Narcissists are stuck in childhood and don’t grow up – they often become more childish as they get older.

          If what you’re wondering is – I was an awesome catch, better than she’s ever had, she never going to find a person as good as me ever again so why did she discard me for someone who isn’t as good as me? – that’s a common question which people ask after they’ve successfully escaped the clutches of a narcissist thanks to the narcissist discarding them, but rather than be relieved they’ve escaped a rather questionable fate and relationship their ego feels the burn of the rejection.

          You’re absolutely spot on about why she didn’t want to pursue a relationship with you – you’re not going to allow her to manipulate you, you’re not going to let her walk all over you, mess you around. She’s the type of person who needs to be in control, her method of control is playing the victim but it’s still a tactic used to control and you weren’t going to let her be in control of you. She probably found the challenge exciting for about five seconds, narcissists always find successful, independent, and strong-willed people attractive… but they always think they can make that type of person do their bidding, and when they find that they can’t they run away. You probably said ‘No’ to her demands once too often, or argued with her too intelligently, pointed out her errors of thinking too sharply, burst one too many of her pipe dream bubbles and she felt that her version of reality was under attack so to save her delusions and illusions she had to run away.

          Narcissists often come from narcissistic families, the narcissistic wound gets passed from generation to generation, within the family unit. Narcissistic families often isolate themselves from the influence of others, surrounding themselves with people who are either also narcissistic or who enable narcissism. SO they tend to think their way of being is the right way of being and it’s everyone else who has the problem.

          Those who aren’t willing to enable the narcissist get discarded – unfortunately the discard is painful and harsh and people often get caught up in the pain of being discarded, asking all sorts of questions, allowing it to eat away at their self-esteem riddling them with doubt. Truth is when a narcissist discards you, it’s a compliment… it just doesn’t look or sound like one, but it is.

          You can find out more about narcissists and NPD on this site – http://outofthefog.website/personality-disorders-1/2015/12/6/narcissistic-personality-disorder-npd – it’s very comprehensive.

          Like

          Reply

  25. I’m sorry for bothering again, I didn’t want to, but I found myself again confused.
    How did you manage to go on with your life? To know exactly what are you doing? Who you are, and what your parents are? I mean, to be sure of it and to not doubt yourself.
    I’m losing my mind again. I’ve talked to my father, the things that my stepmother said once, that the house is her house, not our house, for instance. He listened to all of this with a poker face and said it was not a big deal.
    Then I said that I’ve tried to respect her once, I did what I could, but it was not reciprocated. He said it takes time for a person to loosen up to another (that I should keep trying), even though I did. And it was useless. She still give me the cold shoulder or make allusion and poisonous remarks that can only affect me.
    And this is what makes me confused. Am I overreacting and nitpicking in what she says? Are they, contrary to what I feel, harmless? So why they hurt?

    I’ve been searching for a way to “the no contact” since the last time I talked to you. I was part successful in it. But my father wants to visit me with her. I said it was impossible. He asked why, did she do something to you? That’s when I answered with the her house episode. I’m afraid if she indeed visits me she’ll do the remarks that seems innofenssive to an outsider, but means a lot to me. My father said “I don’t know what will be a problem to you, maybe you have problems with normal comments that is normal to everybody else”.

    I’m finding myself nitpicking with other people’s comments (even when it seems they’re praising, it sounds like a red flag). And now is indeed the witchhunting phase you said.

    I want to get better. I don’t know how.

    Like

    Reply

    • Don’t worry about ‘bothering’ me, I know how that worry feels 🙂

      First off.

      I’m in my late 40’s… being ‘old’ isn’t as awful as it is sometimes rumored to be. It brings a certain ‘wisdom’ with it which is well worth the ‘wrinkles’ and other stuff we’re supposed to fear about aging. It brings a certain acceptance of self as self is rather than as it should be according to others or ourselves based on our perspective of others versus ourselves.

      “None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.” ― Anne Rice

      So if I seem more clear about who I am and what I’m doing it’s because being older has brought a certain – giving less fucks – about being as I am and doing what I do.

      I might as well be who I am as is and do what I do, it works for me even when it doesn’t work out.

      Part of that comes from having experience of life by living through the hell which is thinking that everyone else knows who they are and what they’re doing, and that they know who I am, should be, and what I should do and what I’m doing better than me.

      In your childhood, teens, late teens, 20’s, 30’s… you tend to defer to your elders, to those who were alive before you, especially your parents, thinking they know what’s going on. Even when you go through the ‘rebel years’… you’re basically only rebelling against the establishment and the establishment can wait you out until your rebellion gives up and conforms. There’s only so much banging your head against a wall you’ll do until your head hurts and you stop doing it – that’s sort of what your father is relying upon in this situation.

      When you reach your 40’s… you kind of get to where your parents were when you were young and impressionable, and you realise that your parents… well, they often made shit up and then made that made up shit seem like ‘the laws of the universe which all must abide’. They’re as fucked up as everyone else, as you are, they just had you a bit fooled about it because of the age difference. But once you’re a similar age as they were… and you walk in their shoes, you realise their shoes didn’t fit them as well as they pretended they did.

      From what you’ve shared it sounds as though your instincts are good and if you had a supportive system around you you’d be being encouraged to trust your instincts. But humans being human and parents being parents (preferring to make their children carry their illusions for them)…

      Your father loves this woman for whatever reasons and he wants you to accept her… and he can’t accept you not accepting her because it makes him uncomfortable, so to make him feel comfortable you have to be uncomfortable instead. He’s being very human and very dad-like, strutting his authority around like it knows what’s best for everyone.

      He thinks he’s being and sees himself as the ‘logical, reasonable, one’, but he’s actually being rather illogical and unreasonable. He wants to visit you but he wants to do it on his terms rather than yours. He thinks that his way is the ‘right’ way and therefore is trying to force you and everyone else to see things that way. But actually his way could be seen as the ‘wrong’ way because he’s trespassing over your boundaries and telling you that your boundaries are wrong and what they should be to be right.

      Ideally – if he wants to see you on your territory, in your home, then he should do it on your terms, respecting your boundaries, and the rules and regulations which apply to your home space. You don’t like your stepmother, don’t want her on your territory, in your home, you don’t want contact with her, don’t want to interact with her. If your father really cares about spending time with you he needs to accept this and not try to force matters. If he wants to see you, then he should see you – why does she have to be with him for him to be with you?

      Your stepmother may feel similarly about you – she may not want to interact with you because the two of you just aren’t compatible. It happens, it doesn’t have to be anything other than two people just not liking each other and not getting along. Sometimes people just don’t get along, aren’t compatible and don’t have to be – keeping the peace may require keeping your distance from each other. But your father just can’t accept this and he’s trying to force her and you to have a relationship to suit him rather than to suit either of you.

      He’s the one with the real problem in this situation, and he’s the one making his problem your problem and her problem. And he makes the problem worse by not listening to either of you when you want to discuss things and clarify the issue.

      He’s a bit – my way or my way. In other words he wants to make everyone else live in his version of reality for his sake and he isn’t interested in compromising or incorporating anyone else’s view or version of reality because it bothers him.

      He obviously loves you and he loves her but his love comes with conditions that require you and her to get along when you don’t get along, and this is what is causing a big portion of the ‘confusion’.

      You may be ‘nitpicking’ but everyone does that, especially when they are unhappy about something. Maybe you’re ‘too sensitive’, that’s actually normal for many people. There’s nothing wrong with it unless it bothers someone else. Sometimes we’re labeled ‘too sensitive’ when someone else is being ‘insensitive’ to our needs or ‘overly sensitive’ about their needs which requires of us to be insensitive to ourselves. So there’s that too.

      Sometimes we get told we’re ‘nit-picking’ when what we’re actually doing is identifying what we do not want in our lives. We may accuse ourselves of being too critical because we refuse to accept something which we find unacceptable to us.

      It can be very confusing – relationships are a complex and complicated puzzle.

      It’s good to keep an eye on whether we’re being too critical, too bitchy, too sensitive, etc, but it’s also worth keeping an eye on why we’re being that way and what it means to us as well as what it means for others.

      Your father obviously cares about you and about his wife, and he’d like you two to get along… and he’s riding roughshod over you two not getting along because he just doesn’t understand and doesn’t want to understand why you don’t get along. He wants a happy world… even if he has to make people unhappy to get it. That’s a very human way to doing things, and also confusing AF.

      Your father is no longer the boss of you, but he’ll never stop thinking that he’s the boss of you, so this is something you’ll have to handle diplomatically – saying no while not making him want to turn your no into a yes.

      If I was you I’d avoid getting involved in his relationship with your stepmom, because that provokes him in ways which make him meddle more in how you live your life. If she makes him happy then let him have that – try, if you can, to avoid pointing out any problems with her to him as he’s not ready to see where she might be problematic. The problems you have with her are problems which you have with her, if you try to make your problems with her his problems with her then he’ll push harder to make you not have problems with her because you’re involving him in those problems and he doesn’t want problems. Want him to back off, then you have to back off too. Want him to accept that you and her just don’t get along – then don’t try to make you and her not getting along something which he needs to sort out because his method of sorting it out makes your problems with her worse, and makes your problems with her problems which you have with him too as he’s very attached to her at this time.

      Hope that makes sense.

      This probably won’t have an easy or simple solution and may require further experience of being confused – working through what confuses you helps you to get to know yourself and work towards knowing who you are and what is right for you (even if it’s not right for you according to others who have their own agenda and try to force that upon you too).

      Take care of yourself, let life happen and figure it out as it happens – that’s experience which eventually gives us a certain type of confidence.

      Dealing with confusion and chaos… that’s life 🙂

      Like

      Reply

  27. I just finished reading your “Answering questions about narcissists.”

    100% SPOT ON!!!!!!!

    And very humorous! When dealing with these aliens we HAVE to have some humour or go stark raving!

    Like

    Reply

  28. Hi Ursula, I am an only child of narc parents. It is hell and for various reasons I cannot go “no contact” as the narc support forums advise. I am single now and have given up on relationships because (1) people cannot take me with the baggage of my ageing, ailing narcissistic parents and (2) I have been hurt by narcissistic partners in the past. I cannot seem to attract non-narc partners so it is better to be alone. There is no greater hell than being the only child of narc parents who put on a perfect front to the outside world. For years I thought I was the problem and the cause of the disharmony in the dysfunctional family home (all behind closed doors of course). My father controlling, demanding, threatening and raging while my mother (people think she’s an angel) continually complained about him to me and told me I wasn’t as good or helpful as other children. I was told that I was spoilt because I was an only child but I didn’t have any more than other children I knew. Her never ending illnesses that are always life threatening but despite this she has outlived many of her contemporaries. At times I am convinced my parents will outlive me they drain my energy so much.

    It has always been difficult to hold down a job because my father didn’t want me to work for somebody else. I worked for him for a few years and he always found an excuse not to pay me. When I escaped to the city and a job there my mother’s constant acute illnesses kept hoovering me back. My father almost strangled me one time I was visiting them and I decided to go no contact. This was 2002. I got a call from an aunt offering support if I came down to see her. The first thing she said when I came in was “your poor mother when are going to go and see her again”. When I explained the family home wasn’t safe for me and took off my scarf to show her my bruised neck she said “your mother is upset and he is your father after all, you should pray for strength and go see them again”. I ended up going back when my mother ended up in hospital (again).

    All the time their needs have superseded mine. I had major surgery in 2011 and a week after my mother had a heart attack. I had to use my sick time to care for her until an infection in the surgical site forced me to stop. I was told off by my father and a neighbour for this. In 2014 I got chronic fatigue and had go sick from work. Shortly after that my mother ended up in hospital and I spent the time when I should have been resting going to see her because her illness was life threatening. I would collapse everywhere but pick myself up and keep going. My sick leave ran out and I had to return to work. Work is a breeze compared to my parents. I have lost contact with the few friends I had because of my parents demands.

    I am 45 and this is not the life I had planned for myself. Instead of saying “is this it?” I say “this is it and I have to deal with it”. I always wanted children and a family but I am glad I have no children because my parents would have used them as a virtual life support system (just as they do me) and would have been pathologically jealous of my having to spend time with them. They would have been neglected.

    Being an only child means it is very hard to say no to their demands, especially if they are backed by illness. I have collapsed in the emergency room when my father was there waiting for a doctor and he accused me of putting on a show. The staff didn’t think so after examining me and wanted to admit me but I didn’t go in. When my time comes I want to die quickly.

    Sorry for this rant but you are not alone, there other only children of narc parents. If we could all find each other and give ourselves the support and company we never had but maybe we’re too independent and battle hardened for that. Lone wolves fending for ourselves in between the physical, emotional and spiritual drudgery of being the only ones there for our narc parents.

    How do two narcs stay together in a marriage? They fight like hell behind closed doors and use their only child as a pawn. Maybe they live in a country where divorce is illegal. A conspiracy of silence that everything is perfect in front of other people.

    You mention vampires and the current narcissistic culture. Without being melodramatic I feel like I am the child of vampires.

    Listen to the lyrics of Queen’s song “let me live”, for me it sums up the plight of being the only child of narc parents.

    Good luck and I hope you escape this toxic legacy so many of us deal with alone.

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you very much for sharing 🙂

      It’s not always possible to go No Contact.

      When I read the advice given for those who are dealing with narcissists I think a lot of the advice is aimed at people who aren’t children of narcissists. There’s an assumption that you walked into the relationship with the narcissist freely and therefore you can freely walk out of it. But even for people who aren’t children of narcissists getting away from a narcissist isn’t as easy as saying – I’m done with this hellhole.

      There are often more reasons why it’s not possible to go No Contact than there are for it to be possible – once you get caught up in the reality of a narcissist untangling yourself from their tangled web is a challenge, especially when they have no intention of letting you go. If you were born into it you belong to them and they never let their possessions go (even when they pretend to do so, such as when a narcissist parent decides to disown their child).

      If you haven’t already, check out this forum – https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists – while it may not help solve anything, it does help to know that you’re not alone in dealing with the endless problems caused by having narcissists for parents.

      Going No Contact from your narcissist parents has as many pitfalls as not doing it. I went NC awhile ago and spent most of that time worrying about them returning with a vengeance, as well as not really knowing what to do with myself now that I no longer had to deal with them making my life about them. I really struggled with the ‘freedom’ of it. I didn’t really deal with anything until they actually did ‘return with a vengeance’ when my father died. It’s was as though I’d never actually gotten away as far as they were concerned (my father’s death didn’t stop him leaving the kind of mess which narcissists create for others).

      One thing I’ve learned is that whether you’re a child of narcissists or not, life often leaves all humans feeling that the life we have isn’t the one we planned on having. And you’re absolutely right about having the attitude of “this is it and I have to deal with it”. But that attitude isn’t a hopeless one. It’s up to us to figure that out individually for ourselves.

      Sometimes it takes a long time to realise that reality isn’t a game that narcissists always ‘win’ at playing simply because they don’t play by the rules which everyone else is playing by.

      A couple of books which have helped me along the way are:

      The Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller – http://www.alice-miller.com/en/the-drama-of-the-gifted-child/

      and

      Going Mad to Stay Sane by Andy White – http://andywhiteblog.com/2016/06/11/going-mad-to-stay-sane-2/

      One of my fav Queen songs is – I Want to Break Free.

      Feel free to rant – ranting is rather liberating 🙂

      Take care of yourself – you, not everyone else but you! ❤

      Like

      Reply

  29. Just found your blog today. I’m a future step parent/mother to a very young girl with a narcissistic mother. Not only is it stressful watching my fiance deal with his ex (they were never married and we are 10 yrs older than the mother) but we worry about the impact of her behavior on their daughter. There is so little information on how to deal with a narcissist. All of it is “RUN!!”. We can’t do that and have to deal with situations where she doesn’t get what she wants and hope for little retaliation. It’s been a struggle and we have many years to go. I’m looking for some online support groups that are private. Any recommendations?

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      You’re in a very delicate and difficult position, but also a rather powerful one – you have the ability to offer the kind of stability, nurturing and support to the child of a narcissist which the narcissist parent will never give them. You can be their ‘safe haven’ in a permanent storm. You have the opportunity to make a big difference in the life of this child, and to the adult they will become. But you will have to contend with the narcissist parent fighting and undermining you, making you their ‘enemy’ which they will expect their child to fight with/for them against, every step of the way (unless you can convince the narcissist to be your ally – which is a hit and often miss tactic).

      The advice given to people dealing with narcissists tends to be to go No Contact and ‘RUN!!’. This can be unhelpful if you’re unable to do that. There are many scenarios where cutting the narcissist out of your life or avoiding them is not an option, so what do you do when it is not?

      I haven’t researched the particular issue/dynamic/scenario which you’re describing because it isn’t relevant to me, so I’ve been rather selfish and remiss in the matter. I have however come across a couple of sites which might be a good starting point.

      This blogger has written a lot about being a step parent to two children of a narcissist mother – https://kimberlyharding.wordpress.com/category/narcissism/

      This blog was created by a woman who co-parents with a narcissist, she was one of the first to blog about narcissists, and she has gathered many resources – http://n-continuum.blogspot.co.uk/

      This is a forum for adult children of narcissists, they often recommend links and resources and may be able to offer links to what you’re searching for – https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/

      This is a website created by a psychologist who focuses upon helping children and their guardians deal with difficult parental situations – http://www.angriesout.com/namka.htm – this is a link to an article about family narcissism – http://www.angriesout.com/grown17.htm

      This is a brilliant article about what it is like to have a narcissist for a parent (worth reading if you’re trying to help the child of a narcissist) – https://theinvisiblescar.wordpress.com/2013/04/14/surviving-the-narcissistic-parent-acons-adult-children-of-narcissists/

      This is quite a good site to search – https://www.psychologytoday.com/ – they have a lot of diverse bloggers on maters of psychology and family dynamics, etc. This is an interesting article on the subject of narcissist parents – https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/insight-is-2020/201405/narcissistic-parents-psychological-effect-their-children – and this one may be relevant to your situation of co-parenting with a narcissist – https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-legacy-distorted-love/201108/how-empathic-parenting-is-the-antithesis-narcissism

      The best article I have come across for ‘talking’ to a narcissist and trying to get them to actually ‘hear and listen’ to what you’re saying is this one – http://www.psytalk.info/articles/narcissist.html

      A lot will depend on the type of narcissist you’re dealing with as although each type has similarities they also have differences which can make all the difference – gender of narcissist can also make a difference. Female narcissist tend to be Covert narcissists and tend to see themselves as the ‘victim’ of everyone else (and a Covert narcissist mother will convince her child that her child must protect the mother from all the mother’s ‘enemies’ which includes the child’s father and the father’s partners). This is a must read about NPD – http://energeticsinstitute.com.au/narcissism/ – it’s an in depth look into the disorder from many aspects, and explains the narcissistic wound.

      It’s worth considering the narcissist you’re dealing with as ‘not an adult’ as you are, therefore don’t expect them to understand ‘adult issues’ including how to be a good parent to their child. Most narcissists are better dealt with if you approach them as though they were a ‘child (a warped and twisted one who will never grow up) in the body of an adult’. Narcissist parents always come first, before their child and they expect their child to put them first, to put their narcissist parent’s needs and wants first before their own ‘childish’ needs and wants. The child of a narcissist usually takes on the role of the surrogate parent to their narcissist parent. The child of a narcissist is the ‘possession’ of a narcissist parent – not a human being – there to be who and what the narcissist parents needs and wants them to be to fill the narcissistic wound void.

      I would suggest searching online for – Co-parenting with a narcissist.

      Also the work of Alice Miller may be helpful, especially her book – The Drama of the Gifted Child. ( http://www.alice-miller.com/en/preface-to-from-rage-to-courage/)

      It’s possible that seeing a family therapist might prove to be helpful, at least for you, your partner and for your step child (chances are the narcissist parent won’t agree to this or participate unless they can control and manipulate things), as the issue of narcissist parents and their effects on their children and extended family have become a popular and thus highlighted and studied issue.

      Your insight into needing to deal with this is invaluable. But don’t let this become a shadow over your life and relationship with your partner and step child. Who you are naturally and what you do normally will have a big effect even if it seems subtle.

      Dealing with a narcissist is never easy – but don’t give them more power than they actually have over you, don’t let the popular view of narcissists as super-villains scare you into not being yourself.

      Best wishes, and take good care of yourself (the care you take of yourself also takes care of those you care about).

      Like

      Reply

      • This is amazing advice thank you, I am dealing with the same, my partner’s child is nearly 9 & the struggle continues, she Idolises her narc mother. MEL I’m happy to share experiences hopefully we can help each other….
        Dealing with this caustic situation is tiring and I feel like I’m trapped in someone else’s game that I don’t have the rules to…. is this how it feels for you?

        Like

        Reply

  30. You are great Ursula, and this site will help a lot of hurting people. We are here to help each other as we are after all….all one.

    Thanks so much

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    • Thank you very much ❤

      When we share our stories with each other we help each other understand our own stories and we let each other know that we're not alone, we're in this together. Being in pain connects us, it's something all beings experience, and through our connection we can figure out how to heal what hurts – sometimes just sharing our story helps to heal us gently.

      Like

      Reply

      • Dear Ursula,
        just a few lines to see how you are, I hope everything is fine with you and you are busy offline on holiday. You are like an old friend who exists for me even if we are miles away.i have been silent for a long time as i Wonder how you feel when dealing with all these people (me included) dealing with painful experiences and i didn’t want to abuse of your kind shoulder. Bad news, as I have been seeing aman for two years who was a narcissist and maybe more, i have been unable to detect it in the process, i have no défenses, I was justifying everything he did to me; same frame of the previous one.I have been pondering for months about it and i wonder how come i can’t recognize it, i have studied the whole thing, analysed my family and all the other hells i have gone through.i feel I can’t trust myself and my non existing self confidence has been swept away.
        So i have to admit i haven’t leart my lesson, what do oyu reckon?Did it happen to you too?Why does it occur? Lots of love and a big hug, baci, S.xxx

        Like

        Reply

        • Sto molto bene, grazie 🙂

          I’m busy doing DIY, hence my absence from the blog atm. Writing posts relies upon me having conversations going on in my head and the main discussions in my mind right now are about painting, plastering, carpentry, plumbing, etc, which isn’t particularly interesting as a subject for a post 😉

          With regards to learning life lessons – some life lessons are for life, which means we keep learning them over the course of living. So, you have learned from them but there is always more to learn, other ways of learning those lessons and about them, all the things they have to teach. It may seem like the same lesson over and over, and may give you the impression that you haven’t learned it, but it’s always different even when it seems the same. Sometimes we learn in subtle ways, in small ways, make tiny shifts – and we have to experience the lesson again to find out what we have learned and what still needs studying.

          I’m sure there are good things which have come from your relationship with this man and it’s not all bad news. Every relationship has mixed blessings to it, when it ends and ends badly we tend to focus upon the negatives and may lose sight of the positives – remember the good things too as this gives a balanced perspective on your interaction with him.

          I often find myself repeating my life lessons, each time around I get to test what I’ve learned up to this point, try out new approaches, see what happens if I have a different attitude, and see the lesson itself from a new angle. It can be frustrating at times, but the frustration can be creative friction. Sometimes it repeats to show you how much you’ve changed, how far you’ve come, and sometimes it’s there to show you that you’re you as you are and it’s about accepting and acceptance.

          Sometimes when things go wrong it’s not about fixing the wrong so much as being Wabi Sabi about it 🙂

          Take care of yourself, don’t let yourself get you down, you’re a beautiful soul – be gentle with your beautiful soulfulness ❤

          Like

          Reply

          • I have read something on wabi sabi, it’s very interesting- there are some Japanese concepts which in spite of belonging to a faraway culture i feel so close, like mono no aware.i read somewhere Japan is a Virgo country, and so is my moon.
            It is difficult for me to be objective on what i have lived, but for sure the only way to avoid grief is to avoid love.The more you love, the more it hurts.
            Thank you for your words and work well on oyur house! xxx

            Like

            Reply

            • “The only way to avoid grief is to avoid love” – is it? Doesn’t avoiding love cause grief too?

              “The more you love, the more it hurts.” – what is it that hurts?

              Sometimes what is needed is a new understanding of love.

              I used to think love was one thing and that version of love always hurt, but then I changed my definition of what love is and that kind of love hurts less. There’s still hurt but changing the perception of hurt and its purpose in life changes how the pain is experienced.

              Humans come into this world hurting, so maybe that feeling is normal and natural and not to be feared or avoided – or maybe not.

              Virgo comes with the phrase – serve or suffer – it’s an intriguing concept to ponder.

              If you like mono no aware then feeling the pain is a part of existence, but is pain really pain or is it something else – a number dialed to get a deeper connection to one and all 🙂

              Like

              Reply

              • my first statement is a paradox, because love is something every mentally sane person is attracted to.But right now, i wonder if i will be ever able again to trust someone.
                the second one refers to my rooted convinction that the act of loving is bound to cause suffering, as you are more exposed and vulnerable, you allow the other to see you psychologically naked; and this is ultimately linked to the first form of love you have learnt, haha, with your parents.So it’s continual rummaging into the depths of your self, heart and past.
                What is love after all?I have read a beautiful article saying that when you love someone, you love his wound and how he gets on with it, how he healed, with all his flaws.I have truly and deeply loved this man, who has been betrayed, neglected and used.i am still sorry for his life and bad choices, for his feeeling lonely. But somehow he enjoyed passing the wound, putting me down, he was even unaware of what he was doing, always in denial.denial is a form of folly, when you are in front of it, you wonder what the hell it is. And you seek a way out as in a blaze.
                i am not sure all the pain we feel is positive, it can rob us of our courage to go towards others. For sure, on the other hand, pain allows you to be in contact with your real and deeper self.
                In your post today I read love is taking a risk:how true.But at the moment i am afraid i would have acted better saying no and protecting myself.I feel burnt and i don’t know if i will be able again to take a risk.
                Thank you for what you wrote about the wabi sabi, it helped me a lot and i could be a bit more objective about the Relationship; in a way, i will always love him in spite of his destructive behaviour, towards himself and me. it makes me feelbetter to write all this, thank you.xx

                Like

                Reply

  31. Wow! ! Well thank for helping me clarify a few words n terms of my “conditions ” that i actually find normal bit as usual most people don’t understand why i am the way i am..

    My parents weren’t narcissist, but I have met a couple of people in my life that are extremely cold hearted, honestly dont have a concious ,a care in the world, and yess they have the luck that i thought I deserved because i believe im kind hearted honest allthough my honesty can get me in trouble i always try to be honest..

    I care for others deeply ..well not soo much just anyone like before but people around me, the ones that manage to stay around ..allthough some are the best actor’s in the world they have taught me alottt of how life really is..not everyone has a heart and WE’RE DEFINITELY NOT ALL CREATED IQUALL..
    N that I HAVE TO BE REALLY CAREFUL WHO I CHOOSE TO BE AROUND WITH because of who i am n how caring i can be …and I REALLY LIVE BY THE. “.TREAT OTHERS HOW U WANT TO BE TREATED ” ..ALLTHOUGH MOST DONT GET THAT..im glad im that way..

    Throughout soo much betrayal mind games pain confusion Lonelyness n ect , i thought myself or life has thought me to calm down..step away from society. .

    I’ve realized that I now have a problem on saying someone is a friend. .ill get to kno a person but man i quickly see negative things on most people that send an alarm through my body telling me RED FLAG , KEEP AWAY, TOXIC!!! Specially since im soo giving..
    Anyway through out most of my adult life i have been very alone which now is my choice n i seriously need my alone time for few days a week because if not …things will have an effect n an impact on my feelings my thoughts and who i am in general..so im much more happier n understanding n rational thinker after my me time..

    By the way im also a Capricorn jan 13 ..

    I can relate to u In many different ways and it actually encourage me to write to u ..i will definitely want to kno more about u n your experiences.

    Some how u put many things into words that i count really pin point unless i really concentrated on it.

    Also i much prefer writing my feelings to. Others i can tbink better .because when I speak many people dont understand what im trying to say or from so much racing thoughts i confuse them because i begin talking about different subjects n half way on one ill begin new one and end with a complely different one n then mention rhings of the first subject.
    I learned to accept myself n love myself because NO1will have my back ,love me n accept like i can.

    Theres much more i want to write but I want to keep looking for what i was looking for before ending up in ur blog post ….

    Glad to kno theres similar people in this world ..glad u haven’t let any narcissist knock u down allthough i kno how easy it can be to let them get what tbey want.
    My parents werent narcissist but ive met people that did damage but still survived n honestly came out stro ger n wiser from each painful heartbreak..n your obsolutely CORRECT of everything i read so far..i seriously agree with all of it.

    And yess is soooooo hard to get them away from u because they are truly amazing on what they do..n nope they wont let u go because they need us for them to feel they have poqer control over our feelings, n many other attributes that we have..

    And they can confuse the shiet out you…it seriously is sooo unbelievable the shiet tey pull .n allthough we see them doing things they still manage to believe that what we seen was wrong and what there saying is true..they are the most charming genorous smart funny giving people u will ever meet ( on the surface n an act for everyone around them..yeap but we are the freaking crazy ones n WEmake them treat us like that cause of our crazyness)

    Its why immm soooo cautious on who i choose to be around me..k ttyl time to finish my haunt.

    P.s. I just realized how much i wrote.!

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      Since you’re a Cap Sun I’m wondering if your Mercury is in Aquarius – Mercury in Aquarius likes to roam (and tends to be the sort of mind which others find hard to follow and understand because it jumps around from subject to subject). Also, if you’re into astrology, it might be worth looking at your Moon and seeing how it correlates to your ‘caring/giving’ nature.

      If you grow up with narcissist parents there are certain things which make you ‘different’ from others. These things have been ‘amplified’ compared to others. Some are beneficial, although they don’t always feel that way, and others are problematic but can become beneficial once you work on them and understand them by understanding more about yourself.

      Growing up with narcissists tends to make you more sensitive to the narcissistic traits and behaviours of others and this can be helpful in spotting a narcissist but it can also cause issues to arise in relationships where a ‘narcissist’ isn’t part of the equation.

      Be careful that you don’t end up thinking that everyone you meet is a narcissist simply because you’re more tuned into their narcissistic tendencies and therefore more likely to spot red flags. Not all red flags are red flags pointing to a narcissist. All humans have narcissistic tendencies.

      If you’re looking for something you’ll find it. But there are other things there too.

      The most important aspect of this experiential algorithm known as being yourself is to know yourself. Through knowing yourself you learn to know others, and through interacting with others you interact with yourself. The issues we have with others point to issues we may have with ourselves. Through solving problems with others we solve problems with ourselves.

      Sometimes the problem is not the problem but the solution.

      Keep following your path and discovering where it leads, let your soul unfold and embrace you 🙂

      Like

      Reply

  32. So, it’s early morning here in Germany. The fresh air coming in from the open window in my kitchen feels good against the skin; it smells good too — fresh. I am listening to one of my favorite podcasts while trying to think of reasons why I should write my essay for my Anthropology class this morning. I have the urge to ditch it and do it tomorrow, yet the urge to get it over with. As I drink my morning coffee (my fourth or fifth cup), my mind begins to race. I open my web browser to………..{blank}, and accidently type Mercury in Aquarius in this trance-like caffeine induced manic state (say that five times fast) and third on the list is your blog and article regarding Mercury and Aquarius. I have Mercury in Aquarius myself so I say, “hey, what the hell, I am already here. May as well check this out. I read your article and my jaw drops — I never read such a brilliant article regarding Mercury in Aquarius before in all my years of studying the Liberal Arts and Occult Sciences. So, I read several other articles you have written and they’re all brilliant to me. I am hooked. I just wanted to say — all of the above — and Bravo.

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you very much for sharing 😀

      Wow! Antropology! Awesome subject to explore for a Merc in Aqua! The archeology of the human being… the sound of the bones of our ancestors rattling and speaking to us in our own marrow. Following the beat of a strange drum is part of the journey 😉

      Like

      Reply

      • It has been some what interesting. Can’t say its all bad. However, I am only taking the class, and any class in University really, because I am getting paid to take classes at University. When they stop paying me to go, I am running….running from “higher education”, and running from the robots…..haha. I do have interests that brush up against these topics, but its not really my thing. I rather study on my own exclusively, and on topics I enjoy, on my own time and at my own pace. I am thinking you can understand and appreciate this more than most 🙂

        Like

        Reply

        • Getting paid to study sounds like rather an awesome job… it also sounds like a bizarre experiment. Are the people who are paying you to take classes at university checking to see how all this studying affects your brain in some way? Do you have to wear a hat with electrodes attached to your head?

          I totally get wanting to do your own thing in your own way – I have Pluto and Uranus natally in the 1st house, with Uranus aspecting my Merc in Aqua and Pluto aspecting my Sun… a lot of my ‘studies’ involve how to get away with doing things my way and fly under the radar of those who would rather I did things their way 😉

          One thing a Merc in Aqua knows how to do is go with the flow of the algorithm of life.

          Where your Merc in Aqua is located by house, and what it aspects, may well coincide with your rather intriguing job of getting paid to study (that could also be connected to 10th house placements/sign).

          The desire to run away from where you are and what you’re doing to some haven where the rules are all your own and you get to do as you please… that’s a very human urge. We all tend to perceive the grass we want to lie in as being somewhere else, anywhere else but here and now, and wish we could rule our own world (or at least not be subject to anyoen else’s rule.

          Like

          Reply

          • Electrodes, No. Haha. Once upon a time I was young and stupid and thought it would be a great idea to join the military. Three years (and some change) later I was discharged and now they must hold up their end of the contract, i.e., they must pay me to go to school (if I choose to). Of course, I go, because its a rather good way to subsidize my income.
            I actually have Mercury in the 7th house squaring the moon in the 10th house. Explains much.
            While that is a human urge, no doubt, my urge to run has more to do with the dogma that is inherent in these churches everyone calls University. I came into University excited as I spend most of my free time studying anyway, but a year in I started to become disgusted with what “higher education” is being passed off as. I get a good professor every 3 or 4 semesters or so but that’s seldom. So, I adapted my philosophy. I am getting paid to go to school, I can study what I know is important on my own time, and next May I am no longer getting paid and no longer have to subject myself to it. In other words, I am laying on my green grass everyday. A couple times a week I have to go sit on some brown grass, but then I can leave and go back to my awesome grass. 🙂

            Like

            Reply

            • Observing what goes on behind the scenes of the facade of ‘higher education’ is a fascinating study in and of itself – perhaps what you’re really doing right now is studying the system of studying itself, amassing information which will become part of something that has yet to take shape for you.

              Sometimes we just have to follow the threads which pull us forward. One thing leading to another with the objective obscured. Like a fractal…

              Liked by 1 person

              Reply

              • I keep telling myself that as well. Hey, thanks for liking my page, by the way 🙂 It was just a school project I had to do a year ago (creating a webpage). I forgot all about it until I went to comment on your blog and it said I had a wordpress blog. “I have a wordpress blog? Oh yeah, I do.” I guess I still had the cookies in my browser. Maybe I will do something real with it. I am hoping to get a Youtube channel up and running in the next months and I really like what you were able to do with a wordpress account. It gives me inspiration that maybe a wordpress account could make a cool companion to what I am trying to do. Not much to do with the original idea I had for the school project though. Something like that, but more similar to what your doing. I am beginning to think I need an outlet or I will explode, plus its blocking up the circuit and I need more mental energy to flow in. haha

                Like

                Reply

    • Hello Ursula,

      I have enjoyed reading your blog for about four years now. Well excepr for the past year that is. I’m r mind d in your interst and pretty keen knowledge in the field of astrology. For quite some time I have been lightly studying up on my chart and feeling like it would be nice to have someone other than myself take a look and share with me their thoughts or insight. Would you be interested?

      Like

      Reply

      • Thank you 🙂

        I’m not an astrologer so I don’t do chart readings (and it’s best if I don’t because I’m a fruit loop), however if you want to share some of your info, particularly the parts of your chart which interest you and have caught your attention (that’s always a good place to investigate), feel free to share what you’d like and I’ll give my perspective.

        I don’t do email with my blog so anything you share is via comment and public.

        My favourite online astrologers, both of whom do readings, are:

        http://rubyslipper.ca/ruby-slipper-astrology/

        https://juliedemboski.com/

        Both of them write great posts about transits and how they might affect you – transits are fascinating to explore as they can kick a natal placement into gear causing sparks in certain areas of your life to fly.

        And, of course, Astrodienst is a great site – http://www.astro.com/ – their Astro Click portrait is very useful for getting to grips with all the fiddly bits of a natal chart.

        Remember when reading your chart – your chart doesn’t tell you who you are, who you are is who you are, the chart can help you get to know yourself better and certain placements can open up interesting conversations between aspects of the self.

        I’m always interested (extreme curiosity is enabled permanently in this person that I am) 😉

        Like

        Reply

  33. hello ursula,

    my chart looks almost the same! I am a virgo rising with chiron conjunct north node and venus in the seventh house. My saturn is in the eighth house, though.
    My pluto is in the first house conjuncting my ascendant and my uranus and jupiter are conjunct in libra in the first house.

    There are even more similarities!
    I was born in 1969 on the 8. of february in germany.

    Everything you wrote about your family, your mother or your father is exactly my story!

    I never talked to anyone who had almost the same horoscope i have!

    It would be soooooo exciting to find out, wether our lifes are so similar too!!!
    That would even deepen my trust in astrology!

    My english is far from perfect. Sorry!

    I believe i am a really akward (is that written right?) person! It is not that i don´t like myself completely. But i never seemed to fit in somehow. Until i was about 35 years old i was very much into music. I was working professionally and was kind of successful. Now my life has changed a bit. Now i draw more. I am drawing portraits and can´t seem to stop it. I just love it!
    Only 4 month ago my interest in astrology started. Somebody showed me my chart and explained all of my planets. I was shocked. I never believed in this stuff! Now i do!

    I have a really difficult relationship with my parents. They both seem to be quiet narcicistic. Thats why i am not in contact to my father anymore. And with my mother it is the way you described it.

    The switch of the roles is something i can absolutely relate to.

    I can imagine that your life maybe didn´t have that much upheavel (you have to excuse my writing. I am from germany. I am dutch/indonesian, armenian and portugiese, though) than my had, because my saturn is in the eighth house. Yours is in the seventh. The conjunction with venus might be a bit stressfull. But i guess you can be glad, because saturn in eighth is no walk in the park.

    I hope, you will read my post.
    It would be really interesting to find out, if there are so many similarities as in our charts!

    Best wishes!

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      Having a chart similar to someone else is known as being an Astro Twin. The term usually means someone who is born on the same day, month and year, and possibly the same place, and maybe even same time, however it is sometimes used to mean someone who has a very similar chart but who may have been born on a different day, year, place, time etc.

      For celebrity Astro Twins you can search the database of a site like this one, I’m linking you to an actress born on the same day as you (she doesn’t seem to have a time of birth) – http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Mary_McCormack – or like this one – http://astro-charts.com/persons/chart/mary-mccormack/#

      Thanks to having posted my astrology chart I’ve chatted with quite a few people who are almost Astro Twins. There do seem to be some uncanny similarities in personality and in life experience.

      Having a planets like Pluto and Uranus in the 1st house explains the ‘never fitting in’. Uranus in the 1st does not want to fit in because fitting in requires sacrificing certain aspects of freedom and Uranus loves being free to be and to do whatever it wants. Pluto conjunct Asc is intense and other will find you intimidating whether you are or try not to be.

      This is a great resource for Pluto info – https://www.scribd.com/doc/31151867/2204105-Pluto-Sign-House-Aspect – the section for Pluto in the 1st has a collection of what different astrologers have to say about it which is very interesting:

      “Commonly, most of these people will experience difficulties in relationships that revolve around confrontations of an emotional, intellectual, or physical nature in the early part of life. Often they must experience the sense of being attacked, or attacking, of being misunderstood or misunderstanding another. These experiences occur to trigger the realisation of where they and others are coming from – the motivations, intentions, and the basis of an attraction of repulsion. In other cases,intense confrontations may occur through which these individuals experience the sense of not having their needs met by another, or of another confronting them because their needs are not met by the First House Pluto individual. The reasons for these types of confrontations are the same: to promote lessons of equality, of giving, of listening; to fulfil another’s needs before one’s own; to promote the awareness of one’s intentions and motivations, and the awareness of changing needs.” – Jeff Green (the author of the best book on Pluto ever!)

      A lot of what applies to Pluto in the 1st will be intensified and underscored by having NN/Chiron in 7th because of the 1st house/7th house axis = self versus other.

      My Saturn is also in the 8th, it’s right in the middle of it – and my natal Saturn squares my Sun which is a tough aspect (but like with all things Saturn, they’re tough lessons worth learning). My natal chart is here – https://anupturnedsoul.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/natal-chart-transits-june-2015.png (the transits are for June last year but the natal chart is as it’s always been).

      Saturn is a taskmaster who puts you through grueling tests, disciplining and honing character often through restriction, obstacles, someone or something saying ‘No’ to you, it is always stressful and its effect can cause or contribute to upheaval. However I wouldn’t look to it to understand all the upheaval in your life because there are three other planets that a far more likely to turn your world on its head in far more extreme ways. For upheaval I’d look at the transits of Pluto, Uranus and Neptune, the slow moving outer planets.

      This is an interesting in depth look at the astrology of trauma – http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/school/wp-content/uploads/Trauma_Article.pdf – it covers Saturn, Uranus, Pluto and Neptune.

      You’ve got to remember that your natal chart is a snapshot of the heavens at the time you were born. It’s time frozen for an instant. A photograph taken which stops the world for – but the world keeps moving – so the planets kept moving after you were born which means Pluto continued to transit your 1st house, so did Uranus, and Neptune would have transited your 4th house (the house of home, family, roots). Those planets would have slowly and probably agonisingly worked their way through the personal houses – so anyone with a chart similar to mine would have gone through the experiences connected to those planets transiting those houses. All those transits took place in the half of the chart connected to personal experience – houses 1 through 6 are personal houses – houses 7 through 12 are interpersonal.

      Those planets transiting those houses would have created a lot of personal upheaval. For instance Neptune transiting the 4th may mean ‘confusion’ around home, family, roots – in my case this is spot on. I was born in one country, moved to another country shortly after being born, went to several schools in two other countries (I call English my mother tongue but frankly I just speak several languages jumbled together), and never settled down anywhere long enough to consider it home and grow roots. For awhile I was almost certain I had been dumped on Earth by aliens and my true home was somewhere out there in the night sky – but the alien race to which I belonged didn’t want me. My parents are from different countries with cultural differences that they never resolved. My mother had me to ‘fix’ the problems in my parents’ marriage, my birth made things worse because my father did not want children and saw my mother’s act of getting pregnant as a betrayal of a pact they made to not have children. Neither of the extended family of my parents ever accepted me as part of the family because they didn’t approve of my parents’ union for many reasons. My parents fought non-stop, hated each other but stayed together while not living together most of the time. And this is just the tip of the 4th house mayhem (which also includes chaos in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd houses as Uranus and Pluto transited those).

      Things have only really come together recently with the Pluto/Uranus transiting square that somehow released pent up energies – perhaps the Uranus/Pluto square helped with resolving the Uranus/Pluto conjunction. Or perhaps it had something to do with the ‘midlife crisis transits’ – http://astrologyclub.org/astrology-mid-life-crisis/ – and the opportunity to finally come to terms with myself.

      You should have just come out of most of those midlife transits, with just Chiron conjunct natal Chiron up ahead, any time now. I think I enjoyed the Uranus opp. Uranus the most… it conjuncted my Saturn shortly afterwards, is just moving away from that now – that was freaking weird! Right now I have transiting Pluto conjunct natal Sun (but I’m sort of used to these two connecting as they do so natally via a trine).

      Astrology is a fascinating subject and a great way to explore the self and its life story – there are multiple ways of seeing the same thing, and astrology helps to see the positive, negative and neutral all together. Sometimes astrology can explain something which nothing else can… and sometimes it just adds to the confusion 😉

      It’s a pleasure to meet you Astro-twin of sorts 😀

      Like

      Reply

      • hello twin of sorts!
        Thanks for your reply!
        I never looked at it that way. Yes, pluto was transiting my first house! So did uranus. And neptune took a walk through my third and following houses. That explains a lot! And they were moving through all of the houses all my life! Uranus is now slowly moving through my eighth house, were saturn is in. I believe, uranus startet his way in aries from 2011. Is that right? My last years where not easy. It is calming to hear, that the worst part should be almost over. Neptune is in pisces now (sixth house) and pluto is in capricorn. So it is transiting your sun!
        I am running a group. It is called “daughters of narcicistic parents”. It is really interesting to “hear” you talk about your life. The topic “narcicistic behaviour or parents” seems to be important in both of our lives!
        One strong similarity is that our fathers didn´t welcome us. My father didn´t either. He wasn´t shure that i was his child. After a while this question was answerd by itsself, because we look so similar!

        Now i am 47 years old. The relationship between my mother and me seems to break up now. It is the end of a long, exhausting and depressing road.

        My mother is really professional in playing the victim. And of course i am the one whos fault it is.
        It has always been like that.

        I am amazed to see, that one can see so much in a chart of a person. Because of you, i now know, that first house planets have a strong effect on the childhood. They are transiting and moving through the houses and create all of the situations that occur.

        Another similarity is, that the family of my mothers husband (she married him 34 years ago) never accepted me and my mother is influenced by her husband and his family. It is as if she would have an easier life if i wouldn´t have been there. It is a feeling like they are acting politely but under the surface i can always sense that i am not welcome. So i stayed away.

        What do you mean by “things have only come together recently with the pluto/Uranus transiting square”? Does that mean, that times will be easier soon? Neptune is still transiting through the sixth house. This planet feels quiet comfortable in pisces but in the sixth house it creates a lot of blurryness in everyday life, doesn´t it?

        You now, all the time i believed, that my unfortunate family situation is due to saturn in the eighth house. All the literature about saturn in eight is scary!
        But they say, that often times there happens to be a separation from family. Saturn also gives some gifts in the eighth house. It is said, that one has a strong sixth sense. I have read, that even psychic abilities are seen from this placement.

        I don´t know you but i can sense, that you think really fast. And i believe, that you speak the same way. And it feels, as if you are very talented concerning language and music!

        Art is something that has always been a big part of my life. My mothers side is very drawn to art and music. Most of them work in the musc industry or they play chess professionally.

        Now chiron is conjunct chiron! What does this mean? Are we going to be hit by a ton of bricks? Hahaha

        It is nice, writing with you, Ursula!

        You seem to be so interesting and fun!

        Till next time!!!!

        Like

        Reply

        • Thank you 🙂

          What I meant by things coming together during the Uranus/Pluto square is that the energy of Uranus and Pluto combined (in a hard aspect) is something familiar for those born during the Pluto/Uranus conjunction – although you and I were born at the end of that conjunction and have Uranus in Libra rather than Virgo which changes the energy of that combo slightly we’re still part of that zeitgeist. So many of the themes which are present now are ones which we were born to experience and understand. Chaos, rebellion, revolution, upheaval and it’s transformative effect is a kind of home for us.

          I’ve sort of felt that this time was a quickening and a culmination. It’s like all the separate parts of me have come together and are working in unison rather than doing what they’d done previously which was wander off in different directions and generally fight and ignore each other.

          It’s not really about things being ‘easier’ so much as the challenges aren’t as daunting. During the past few years I’ve faced a lot of my old issues and have released myself from old habits, behaviours, blocks. That doesn’t mean I don’t still have habits, issues, blocks, but I seem more willing to deal with things and more capable of doing so – thus far anyway.

          Ha! I do think fast – Mercury is my dominant planet and Uranus, Jupiter and Mars all aspect my Merc in Aqua – I usually have several conversations going on simultaneously in my mind, making connections between random things, jumping from subject to subject, but I also sometimes think so slowly that it’s almost as though my thoughts are moving backwards (perhaps that happens when transiting Merc is Rx or it’s due to having Nep in 3rd). I talk inside my head the same way that I write but I don’t speak this way. I often don’t bother speaking at all, partly because my thoughts move faster than I can talk and partly as I’m very shy in person – Virgo rising reserve.

          I have no musical talent whatsoever, although I can read music because I was forced to learn piano. My hands can’t do separate tasks, so playing an instrument is torture for my brain. I wish I could play, but I’m just not going to. And everyone is relieved when I don’t sing 😉

          I did grow up around artists, but I wasn’t keen on being an artist myself.

          From what I understand of Chiron conjunct Chiron is that it will be what Chiron always is – an opportunity to heal (yourself and others as it’s in the 7th for us), but the healing lies within the wound, so you have to go into the wound to get the healing. It’ll bring things back around and ask the question – do you know your wound, have you found healing within the wound? It’ll be a time to return, reassess, release and renew, and also perhaps to relive but not the same thing the same way as Chiron has journeyed and brings with it what it has learned, discovered, uncovered and collected during its journey around the chart, and meets up with natal Chiron to share what it has now. It should be a blessing of a transit, but that will depend on you – as transits and our chart always do depend upon us to shape our experience of them.

          Perhaps your new artistic exploration is a vessel for healing for you – maybe it’s arrived just in time for the Chiron conjunct Chiron. It’s also probably connected to Pluto transiting the 5th and possibly Uranus transiting the 9th (a transit starts to have an effect before it crosses a threshold because the universe always prepares the way before we get there 🙂

          Like

          Reply

          • Hello Ursula (this is a typical german name!!!hahaha),

            it has only been a few month for me, that i am interested in astrology. Somebody told me, that Jupiter is moving through libra. That means, jupiter is conjunct our Jupiter Uranus conjunction! This person told me, that some surprises, or bigger changes could occur because of that. In my case, the conjunction sits in my first house, wich maybe makes it even more acut (i am sorry for my english. I am really concentrating, when i write in english. I hope, you can understand, what i mean?)Well, my entire life has changed within the last 3 weeks!! My complete work situation has changed. The distance between my mother and me is much, much stronger now. I am living more than 400 km apart from her anyway. But i mean the inner distance! It seems there is a kind of detachment now. This may sound depressing. But for me it is extremely freeing! My mother has always been an extremely close person to me. But she also was …i don´t know the right word bulliyng(?).
            I feel, that my feelings are changing too. My whole life is taking a different direction suddenly. I am so surprised, because right now Jupiter is moving through libra! Do you believe, the change and the Jupiter movement are connected?

            Uranus is also moving through our eighth house. Did you notice any sudden bigger changes because of that? Or are there some to come?

            I wanted to ask you something about saturn. Saturn is still moving through our fourth house! The situation with my mother seems to fit to saturn influencing this part, right?

            I am a bit in a hurry. But i wanted to say something about your thinking. The shyness you are talking about is something i experience too. I really believe, the virgo rising explains this. The annoing thing is, that (someone explained it to me like that) the planets in the first house are seen from people you meet. So you can´t be overlooked. On the other hand we are virgo rising people and as such we don´t like too much attention. That is a bit of a dilemma. I always experienced it like this.

            Mercury is our chartruler, right? What does this exactly mean? It sits in the fifth house in aquarius.My mercury has soooo many aspects. There seems to be not one planet that isn´t involved with mercury! There is a moon square mercury. But everything else are trines and sextiles. I couldn´t see all the aspects in your chart. But since you are thinking so fast, your mercury must get many, many aspects, i guess. Or uranus is involved? Or maybe it is just the sign mercury is in? I find the combination between shyness and fast thinking really interesting!
            And the Neptune in the third. That really makes me think all the time. Mars is in the third in scorpio. Mars likes to be in scoprio, right? But with neptune sitting next to mars, what does this lead to? I read, that mars in scorpio in the third house makes a person very courageous. I believe, in my case that is true. But i am no loud person. I can be extremely quiet. And i often do feel insecure. But when it comes to a situation, where i have to fight for something, i will.
            Does Neptune weaken mars? What are your experiances with this conjunction. (In your case, they are not conjunct. They are only sitting in one house)

            Interesting, what you said about the drawing. Pluto is transiting the fifth, yes. Drawing is such a different thing, than singing. I don´t feel drawn to stagesituations anymore. I like drawing much, much more now. It is so peaceful. It works the best for me, when everything is silent and i am sitting a few hours at the table. When i am sitting in my living room and everything is silent. No radio. No television. No cellphone. I can hear some birds and some sounds from neighbours from the backyard. This even brings me deeper in this kind of meditation state i am in, when i am drawing. It is absolutely delicious!
            And sometimes, when the drawing is finished, i believe, i can see the state i was in at the time.

            Well, i think this time in our lifes must be quiete important , because of the Jupiter transit. But more, because of the big changes i notice in my life. Maybe the planets affect your life in a similar way?

            I find everything so exciting and at the same time a bit frightening. Haha!

            I hope, we can write soon again!

            Till next time, ursula!!!

            Like

            Reply

            • Wow, what a lot of questions! Asking a lot of questions is rather typical of a Mercury ruled chart 😉

              And yes, if you have Virgo rising it means Mercury is the ‘ruler’ of the chart because Mercury is the ruling planet of Virgo. A chart ruler is a general influence and more info about what it means can be found on by doing a search on ruling planets and chart rulers.

              The chart ruler is different from chart dominant (although sometimes it’s the same planet, then it’s not different). To know your dominant you need to use the Pullen chart delineation on the extended chart selection of astro.com. I did a post about that here – https://anupturnedsoul.wordpress.com/2013/08/31/what-planet-dominates-you/ – I reckon that since your Mercury is heavily aspected it’s probably also your dominant planet as well as your ruling planet. But what’s your dominant sign?

              astro.com is an excellent site to get to grips with reading your own chart. They offer a lot for free, you can get extra by subscribing and paying a fee. The Daily Astro feature shows you the transits of the moment – I find this useful as due to having a Locomotive chart shape (chart shapes – http://www.astrotheme.com/files/planetary-patterns.php ) powered by the Moon it helps to know what the Moon is up to and it’s always up to stuff as it moves very quickly. The Forecast report gives you a run down of the major transits going on atm in your chart and is useful if like me you’re lazy when it comes to astro. The astro click portrait is excellent for seeing how your natal chart and its aspects interact.

              Since you’ve only been into astrology for a fairly short time (but have obviously been cramming a lot of astro info in during that short time) have you considered getting a professional reading? It’s quite useful to do that at the beginning of learning about astrology and figuring out how to read your natal chart and especially trying to understand the transits. A professional astrologer can show you how to read it all and their reading will give you an idea of how to put all the information together into a cohesive narrative.

              For instance Saturn transiting your 4th house will bring Saturn’s influence to 4th house matters during the time that it transits it, but its influence can be an undercurrent rather than a strong and noticeable effect if it doesn’t aspect any natal positions.

              When a transiting planet doesn’t aspect natal positions its effect may be subtle compared to when it does aspect a natal position. Also the type of aspect makes a difference – hard aspects tend to be more noticeable than easy ones as they often bring major challenges which require effort on our part to solve them. We tend to notice obstacles and difficulties more than smooth sailing.

              If Pluto is also transiting the 4th while Saturn is transiting the 4th then things will be slightly different from when only Saturn or only Pluto is transiting the 4th, and if Saturn entering the 4th came shortly after Pluto exiting the 4th (and entering the 5th) then Saturn in the 4th may be dealing with what happened during Pluto being in the 4th. And if they make aspects to natal placements yet again this changes how they are experienced.

              Your story with your mother could be related to Saturn in the 4th – I deactivated my relationship with my mother about 15 years ago, however she did reappear recently (while Saturn was in the 2nd and about to move into the 3rd).

              As for Uranus in the 8th… I’ve written a bit about my experience of Uranus transiting the 8th here – https://anupturnedsoul.wordpress.com/2013/05/19/a-story-of-uranus-transiting-the-eighth-house/ – I think Uranus conjuncting Saturn loosened my natal Saturn up a bit and has given me insight into where I go wrong and screw myself over in the 8th house related issues. Whether I’ve learned anything has yet to be experienced in living it 🙂

              My interest in astrology began when I was 14 (funnily enough it was an Aquarius Sun who introduced me to it via Linda Goodman’s Sun Signs which was one of a handful of books available on the subject at the time which wasn’t too obscure for a layperson to understand – things have changed big time since then, the internet is awesome for learning astro). So I’ve been delving into the subject off and on for years – the more you use it the more you change how you use it.

              There are many subtle nuances in astrology which are easy to miss… just as with life.

              Have fun with the new paths you’re exploring… see where they lead!

              Like

              Reply

              • hello again ursula!!

                I wanted to write much earlier. But i had a terrible flu.
                I really have to ask you something about the uranus transit through our eighth house. And also the Jupiter transit through our second house keeps me thinking all the time.
                My life is rapidly changing at the moment. It´s about finances and actually everydayslife. It goes really fast and it´s quiete positive, i guess. It is also exhausting. But i am surprised and happy about it anyway.

                Now i am so interested, if you feel some change too. We both have the jupiter uranus conjunction in our first/second houses. But the transiting jupiter is or was opposing the transiting uranus, too, right?
                Could that have an effect, because these energies are allready familiar to our lifes? Maybe those both transiting planets are repeating something that is allready there. Or they amplify the excisting forces?

                Please excuse my bad english. I hope i could explain myself the right way.

                I followed your link about the pluto placements. Very interesting! Thank you very much for all the links!

                I think i discovered something concerning the twelfth house. I always thought, that the twelfth house wasn´t important in my chart. But the sign in wich the twelfth house sits tells a lot about that sign in a chart and how the person lives it. My twelfth house lord sits in my fifth house. The sun. I believe, that there is a personal secret hidden concerning the house in wich the twelfth lord sits. It must be personal private secret, that only the person, whos horoscope it is, knows.
                The secret is shown in the manner, that that house represents.
                I know, that the twelfth house is about secrets anyway. But i feel, that this personal secret is so interesting! The twelfth house cusp is in leo. But there is a hole lot of virgo in the twelfth house too. Actually more than in the first. Could that mean, that mercury is functioning in a twelfth house way in my chart? Mercury in twelf is communicating very much with the other dimension. Wether it is conciously or not.

                What do you think about my thoughts?

                I really start to get into astrology more and more. I feel it is extremely acurate. Much more than people believe. It surprises me, because it isn´t only leo (sun), but also virgo (mercury) that has a connection to the twelfth house. And that makes really sense to me.

                I hope i am not getting to confused here.

                It would be great to hear your thoughts about this!

                Like

                Reply

                • Sorry to hear that you’ve been unwell. Glad to hear you’re feeling better!

                  I’m going to be very straightforward and say that it sounds to me like you’re trying to learn everything about Astrology too quickly. considering that you’ve only just recently decided to explore the subject, you’ve already grasped a lot about it in a very short span of time.

                  To really benefit from using it… you need to slow down and review the basics before venturing off into the greater territory of it because the basics are the foundations for the rest of it.

                  And during a time of Pluto transiting Capricorn – the foundations upon which we build are important, better get them right or Uranus in Aries will blow our houses down.

                  It also sounds like you’re going through a lot in your personal life and astrology is helping you to deal with that – it can be very helpful in making sense of the chaos of the personal. However astrology isn’t going to answer certain personal questions and issues. Bottom line on that – you have to do that on your own even when using astrology or psychology or anything else.

                  My chart, just because it is similar to yours, and my experience of it and having similar transits, isn’t going to answer your questions about your chart and what’s going on in your life. There may be some coincidences and connections but there will also be differences which make the similarities pale in comparison.

                  At the moment I’m going through a quiet time after several years of chaos. Whatever the transits are doing, I’m not feeling them strongly or only notice them when I deliberately look at them and myself and life that way. I’m laundry drying out on a line after having been through the cycles of a washing machine.

                  Keep exploring as you are but keep in mind the need for pauses to reflect and review – essential for those with Virgo rising and/or Mercury dominant. Don’t let your mind run away with you 🙂

                  Like

                  Reply

    • Based on what you’ve shared which isn’t much at all, the answer is – depends.

      Depends on the Cap.

      Depends on where their Mercury is because the Sun sign is just one tiny part of a whole natal chart and the sign their Sun is in won’t necessary tell you how they think – that’s usually viewed by looking at the sign their Mercury is in, aspects to their natal Mercury, as well as checking out the 3rd house in their natal chart, and planets in that house, and a whole lot more.

      If you want to know how your block makes them feel, then that’s more the territory of their Moon sign rather than the Sun sign.

      Depends on how they view their relationship with you – is a block from you important to them, will it make them stop and think.

      Depends on whether they use the block feature on social media, and how they use it.

      If they use it regularly to make a point with others (like you’ve pissed me off so I’m blocking you until you apologise for pissing me off) then they’ll perceive a block from others as a sign that those others are trying to make a point with them. So your blocking them = they’ve pissed you off – if that’s how they use the block. They’ll most likely assume that you’re using the block feature the way they use it.

      Since you use the block feature, if someone uses the block feature on you… what do you think about it. Chances are you’ll read into it and their use of it the motives which you have for using it. Since you use it on others you’re more likely to notice when others use it on you. You’ll notice if someone blocks you because you want others to notice when you block them. You maybe like using it on others because it makes you feel powerful, but you don’t like it when others use it on you because it makes you feel powerless?

      But if they don’t use the block feature and if they don’t even know it’s available as an option then you blocking them may be something they don’t even notice, or if they do notice it it will perhaps confuse them and they may pause to wonder about this feature they didn’t know about. Hmmm, they’ll think, so you can block people… and they may be too interested in this new information to notice what you’ve done. Perhaps they’ll research it and find that people use it as emotional and relationship blackmail and maybe, if they’re a typical Cap, they’ll think that’s petty and childish and be relieved that you’ve blocked them as they now know you’re not the sort of person they want to know. Your blocking of them says more about you and who you are than it says about them.

      You’ve blocked someone but want to know what they think of you blocking them – why not unblock them and ask them? – is something they might wonder about you and they may answer this question for you as you’ve blocked them so they can’t ask you and you can’t answer.

      Capricorns, like Scorpio, tend to like people to be straightforward with them – you might enjoy checking out this tumblr and asking them your question – http://cardinally-fixed.tumblr.com/

      It’s worth keeping in mind that playing these kind of relationship games with a Cap will probably leave you unsatisfied. Caps have their own in-built block feature and those who play games with them tend to get blocked from their lives (and forgotten in the process – so they won’t waste time thinking about your blocking of them) unless they have a softer Mercury, Moon, or other part of their natal chart to make them less ruthless.

      Like

      Reply

      • Thanks for replying (just saw it yesterday).
        Not sure if you’d be interested in some details… Anyway, I’ve totally lost contact with the Cap, but have unblocked him after something bad happened. It’s the on and off dropping lines which annoyed me, as if he did that out of fun or boredom. I didn’t use the block feature to show my “power” or as a game, instead, it’s more like a protection. Unlike the 2 signs, I’m not a straightforward person. Will never find out his Mercury, Moon, etc.

        Like

        Reply

  35. Hello Intp! Nice to “meet” a fellow female NTP even if mine got an E in front instead of an I.

    Question for you, do you think your Meyers Briggs reflects your horoscope or that your horoscope reflects your Meyers-Briggs? And why do you think so?
    It would be interesting to hear your ideas..

    Ps: I haven’t read your blog or your comments beyond this start page, so if you have answer it another place then I apologize, if not then… we’ll… how exciting! 🙂

    Like

    Reply

    • Hello, and thank you for sharing fellow NTP! 🙂

      Tbh, I have no idea if I’ve looked into the astro of my INTP or discussed it anywhere before on my blog via comment or post – maybe I have but if I did I’ve forgotten it 😉

      Thank you for the pre-emptive apologies – I tend to do that too, apologise just in case.

      Totally agree about it being exciting 😀 Exploring things and gathering information is always a party of the best kind for NTP’s.

      In answer to your question – do you think your Meyers Briggs reflects your horoscope or that your horoscope reflects your Meyers-Briggs? And why do you think so?

      Thinking about it, I would say that it does. Especially looking at the parts of the natal chart which correlate with the ‘mind’.

      I have Mercury as a dominant planet (using the Pullen dominant calculator) and ruling planet (using rising sign) which ties in with INTP’s being ‘mental’ – thinking is like breathing.

      I have Mercury in Aquarius – love exploring all the avenues of a subject, going off on tangents, connecting random dots to make a picture. Same as an INTP. Can be too detached – same as INTP. Can be a scatterbrain – INTP too depending on INTP.

      Actually there’s an intriguing thing I came across recently, nothing to do with astrology but about INTP ‘subtypes’, hopefully I bookmarked it… yay, I did bookmark it rather than just think I should but didn’t… this – http://wambly.weebly.com/the-24-intp-subtypes.html

      My Mercury is in the 5th house – Love puzzles and trying to figure them out. Figuring out a problem is a ‘game’. NTP’s can turn even the most serious issue into a ‘game’, a ‘puzzle’ that needs to be solved by playing with the pieces, seeing them from different perspectives, etc.

      I have Uranus trine Mercury – unusual thinking, will go off the ‘beaten track’ to find answers and solutions. Very much an INTP thing.

      I have Virgo rising – analyser – INTP.

      Moon in Virgo – analyse emotions and feelings – INTP similar.

      Although INTP’s are often viewed as being ‘uncomfortable with emotions’, ‘unemotional’, ‘having difficulty dealing with the feeling/emotional realm’ – this is an erroneous assumption based on superficial data, as well as bias from the ’emotional/feeling’ types who just don’t understand the way the ‘unemotional’ types deal with emotion/feeling… at least imo. Just because we don’t cry during a sad movie moment doesn’t mean we don’t ‘feel’ or have ’emotions’ we just realise that we’re being manipulated by media and choose not to be – we’re more interested in why a movie and media wants to make us cry.

      Certain things which have been branded ‘feeling/emotion’ are thoughts (thought-feeling) and not actual feeling.

      Mars in Scorpio in the 3rd house (of the mind/communication) – love to research, dig, go deep, ask questions (sometimes really taboo questions), go where there’s a ‘don’t go here’ sign, often aggressive in the search for knowledge – INTP’s do something similar in search of knowledge and the how’s and why things and people ‘tick’.

      Mars square Mercury – argues with self a lot – INTP’s do that too, part of the quest for knowledge and rather a fun thing to do.

      What about you, since you asked this question and are an NTP I’m going to guess you’ve delved into this a bit already, care to share your results thus far?

      Like

      Reply

      • Well what can I say, pre- emptive apologies are very handy when one is too lazy to do the ground work yes?
        Just…usually people don’t actually notice it or comment on it, it simply prevents them from getting offended by my laziness (or so it seems? Tbh I have never really thought of the mechanisms before you commented upon it now ☺, but it seems to work and keep the relations mellow)

        So does my chart resemble my Meyers Briggs?

        Here are my planetary characteristics:

        Jupiter, which is in Leo in my natal, is my dominant planet. I also got Sagittarius as rising sing/moon sign.
        My second planet is Uranus and my Uranus is tightly conjunct my Sun and my Venus. My Sun thus also conjuncts my Venus(but not as tight). They are all in Scorpio. I think my Uranus and my Jupiter aspects pretty much all my other planets in some way or another…
        Oh and I have a stellium in Sagittarius with uhm.. Mars, Neptune, moon and mercury (I think?)

        I think that is very similar to an ENTP. We are usually blessed with an impeccable self-esteem that actually comes from within and just burns a whole in our chest and rubs off on everyone we are with. We are very happy and optimistic fellas, my cup is always half full. Often people think we are charming and funny and exciting to be with, that can be very beneficial, but it can also makes you lazy and complacent if you are not careful. And that perhaps is a typical characteristic of a Jupiter dominant with a Sun-Venus Conjunction.

        Also we don’t care what others think about us, we go our own way and do our own stuff and honestly believe we are trend setters when we probably are just the totally lamest people on earth..you know, the typical dad or mum, that think they are hip and cool and “down with the kids”…(but we really *are* hip and cool, i cant understand why the kids cant see that haha :p )

        But that “not-caring”, rebelliousness is probably a result of Uranus?

        Uranus does what it wants and Jupiter gives a solid self-esteem.. It can make for a very arrogant person, but luckily Sagittarius adds charm (and Venus also?) so you get away with it 99% of the time… But yeh, ENTPs have to be careful, there is a thin line here between charming and obnoxious…
        Anyhow.. I think that kinda fits, I dunno how much you know of other Meyers-Briggs types, but if you do know anything about ENTPs what do you think? They are after all INTPs unruly cousins…☺

        But to be serious for a second here, the reason I asked you this question in the first place is that I asked it of someone else not long ago. Whether he thought your Meyers Briggs was shaped after your astrology or your astrology was shaped after your Meyers Briggs. His answer was that the Meyers Briggs always came first (as in the personality) and that the astrology was like a ”Clingfilm ” layer on top of our personalities that enhanced certain traits.
        But after looking into Astrology I am no longer sure. For example, take an ISFJ(the most normal of all female types) I just cant see any of them having a Uranus/Venus/Sun in conjunctions to each other and a stellium in Sagittarius.. Based on that little I have read about those constellations and placements, compared to the characteristics of an ISFJ that would make absolutely no sense…And if an ISFJ are restricted to certain types of planetary patterns, one must conclude that Astrology plays a huge part.

        But such a conclusion would require you to believe that astrology was a real and accurate science in the first place though. Which I am very reluctant to do. I simply refuse the idea of being ruled, shaped.. dare I say even ”created” by some ancient planets that just *happen* to orbit my sun. That’s just.. that just doesn’t sit well with me at all, yet after looking into both, the evidence kinda points that way…Though dare I say I’m not very schooled in either topic so probably have missed tons.

        It has however lead to me now being kinda stuck.. and my brain hasn’t really found a way out yet. Any comments at all?

        Did you always test as INTP btw? I’ve tested INTP several times, but hum… INTPs are suppose to be clever before they act yes? ENTPs usually act then they are clever, see the difference?

        I guess an INTP would find out everything about you before writing a message, I wrote a message first and now I’m gonna go find out about you by reading your blog, hope its fun ☺.

        Oh and what have you gotten out of astrology kind of? I mean, was it worth it? Did it help you at all with.. well i dunno.. whatever you needed help with at the time? Why did you start in the first place? why do you like it?

        Like

        Reply

        • Reading things in a typical INTP manner (typical in as much as I’ve read a lot of things written by INTPs about being INTPs and we do seem to share certain ‘quirks’. This site is run by an INTP – http://oddlydevelopedtypes.com/content/faq – they have some awesome cartoons about the types) I kind of glossed over and skimmed and paid attention to what struck me and stood out…

          One of the things which stood out in your words was – lazy, laziness, etc – I’m constantly referring to myself as ‘lazy’. I’ve seen many references to INTP’s both from INTP’s and those trying to capture them using ‘lazy’ as a descriptive term. I haven’t really looked into ENTP’s… although there was a cracking website which was mainly written by an ENTP who did an awesome profile of INTP’s… and left me thinking that ENTP’s were just so awesome!!!

          Lazy… have you ever considered that your ‘lazy’ is probably not lazy at all – to get to ‘lazy’ you’ve most likely gone through a labyrinth several times to find the simplest and easiest method.

          But to an INTP that simple and easy method is ‘lazy’ and I guess it is to an ENTP as well. If we’re not tied up in knots researching something we’re trying to solve then we must be being ‘lazy’ 😉

          Sometimes ‘lazy’ is genius and the best option. Sometimes it’s a pre-emptive ‘excuse’ which may also serve as an apology – I told you I was lazy, so sorry for my laziness…

          The only reason I noticed your pre-emptive apology thingy was because I’ve done it too and noticed it myself, thus now I notice it in others – pretty much everyone does it to a certain degree because people are sensitive and those sensitive people need apologies. The pre-emptive kind are designed to solve an expected problem before the expected problem occurs. That problem is expected due to it being a fairly common one.

          The other thing which stood out was – this other person whom you asked about astro and MBTI and who said this – “His answer was that the Meyers Briggs always came first (as in the personality) and that the astrology was like a ”Clingfilm ” layer on top of our personalities that enhanced certain traits.” It sounds like the small amount of research they did into astrology left them not interested in the subject and so they answered based on that. Astrology is as superficial as your interest in it. This person probably only checked out mundane astrology which does pretty only bother with ‘personality’ and definitely feels like clingfilm. They didn’t go into esoteric astrology or psychological astrology which digs deeper into the psyche rather than skim the surface.

          Oh, and you don’t need to ‘believe’ in astrology to use it and research it. It’s not a belief system, doesn’t require faith or leaps of faith, or ritual sacrifices on an altar. It’s not ‘science’ either so cold logical reasoning isn’t needed and is counter-productive (you won’t lose your ‘reason and logic’ just by using or exploring astrology). It’s one of those systems which doesn’t really fit into a pigeonhole. It’s a mix of psychology, philosophy, Western/Eastern cultures, mythology (my favourite part about astrology – love the mythology part!), astronomy, mysticism, and just human stuff (which all the preceding things are really when you whittle them down).

          So don’t just look at your dominant Jupiter as ‘what Jupiter represents in mundane astrology’ – check out Zeus/Jupiter in mythology and his story. Check out the story of the Archer (Sagittarius, with Jupiter as its ruling planet) in mythology – perhaps Diana, the goddess of the hunt is the most famous. Look at the psychology of that, explore Carl Jung’s archetypes.

          Astrology is a portal to blending all sorts of other practices – belief is not required. However the ability to sort through a lot of information amassed by many humans is if you’re trying to find a nugget which is relevant to you and your particular quest.

          As for worrying about this – “I simply refuse the idea of being ruled, shaped.. dare I say even ”created” by some ancient planets that just *happen* to orbit my sun. That’s just.. that just doesn’t sit well with me at all” – this is your own story reflected in how you view the subject. With this issue out in the open you could completely bypass systems like the MBTI and Astrology and even psychology and just pause to let what this means reveal itself. Sounds a bit like an atom who doesn’t want to be a part of the other atoms agenda… you’re Jonathan Livingston Atom (if you’ve never read Richard Bach… you might enjoy his work, it can be a bit… reflective of his time and generation and the things which humans were investigating then).

          When my brain gets stuck… a long time out and rejection of everything is usually needed. Throw it all out, whatever stays or returns is the relevant stuff in some form or another.

          And yes, I tested as something else way back when (can’t recall which MBTI I was but it never was quite right – that I do recall)… I couldn’t take the test lots of times online and end up with INTP each time. INTP’s tend to need to check, double, triple, quadruple times before they accept anything and even then… results are always left open for more info to come in. I took the test years ago before the internet. The internet is like INTP heaven ❤

          I'm doing an astro series at the moment on my blog… lots of words… but in those words I sometimes find what I'm searching for.

          I find astrology is useful for connecting dots… connecting those dots is something an INTP needs 🙂

          Like

          Reply

          • Heh, the way you read stuff, that’s pretty much how I read stuff too which as you probably know is very ”lazy.”. though mighty effective ☺

            I also agree with the way you interpret my use of the word lazy, which in it self is rather fascinating. Usually the way my brain eh works (for the lack of a better expression) is.. well.. I don’t know.. weird or abstract perhaps? It connects the dots you know, sees the patterns and plan ahead, … not consciously, but it does, and when you do something like “pre- apologize” its a lot easier to say “I’m lazy” than to tell people what you really do which is unconsciously running through all the different scenarios and outcomes and pros/cos for me as a person related to the situation then weighing them up against each other before you decide to just tell em you are lazy, it kind of hides the thought process behind it all. The blame is on me then yes? Its not because I don’t think your blog is worth it, its not because I cba to check it out because im not sure its worth the time..
            No its simply because Im lazy.. You get the upper hand and look good cos the opposite of lazy is something positive yes? and thus I get the real upper hand because you feel smart and non lazy since I am lazy.. see? You might even think im a little stupid since I am lazy and have already rolled over for you. And that gives me the opportunity to observe you properly yes? While you rest happily in the believe that im lazay and you are smart or something..
            I think that’s why anyway, its all very unconscious from my side, its not something I think about, it took me a whole week to get to this conclusion haha.. but it seems like a good theory, so im sticking with it. So yeh It really isn’t lazy, its in fact a little creepy and calculating..I guess? Not that I care too much, but its fun to theorize about. Oh and people are surprisingly vain…aand now i totally lost my track i think..

            But I don’t actually agree with you about astrology not being a belief system. I mean, isn’t everything a belief system in its purest form? You have to “buy” into Darwin yes? Even if the evidence is overwhelming?

            The only reason I really want to believe in Astrology is because not long ago I fell head over heels in love with someone and it really took me totally by surprise(and shaked me a little to the core truth to be told). As a good NTP I wanted to get to the bottom of this mystery.. Its no fun at all for a logical person as feelings can be vey un logical you know.

            Well the synastry gives some pretty good explanations to why. Its nice to know that there could be an explanation for all the madness..
            Oh and this wasn’t an invitation for a further analyse btw, it was just meant as a explanation to why I really want to “buy into astrology.” because then i have an explanation, and explanations are always good. especially when it comes to abstract things.

            But, I digress, the point was, I think it’s a belief system, I think mostly because it requires you to put your faith in something non organic or something produced by non organics.. Though I haven’t thought this trough properly so, that statement could be flawed.( i think perhaps i shall mull it a little over the next days)

            I bet you could theoretically even worship the planets, as they are after all symbols of old roman gods.

            Oh and I browsed your blog, hum.. I’m not sure its aimed at people like me as I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a narcissist in my life. Or if I have I probably haven’t been deemed exciting enough to become friend with. I guess I dodged a bullet there…

            I like your astrology stuff though.

            PS. It also seems I attract Capricorns en masse. I find that so weird, since when I read about Capricorns id say I was the least fitting person to that star sign, but after starting to look into Astrology I see that almost all my friends are born late December/early January.. or have planets such as Venus or Moon in that sign.. Isn’t that weird?
            You are a Capricorn yes? Do you attract a certain type of signs? Or have you found your friends to cluster within certain signs?

            I mostly attract younger Capricorns though, and by your Pluto sign you should be a generation before me so figured it was safe to ask ☺.
            Btw, im not complaining or anything, my friends are all fun, I like them. They are deliciously stubborn and fun to interact with, and a little grumpy.
            its just a little spooky that they are all Capricorns.

            PPS: “everything” stands out. just saying 🙂

            Like

            Reply

            • Aha! The mystery of love and the puzzle of falling in love have challenged you to figure love out! What a wonderful adventure you’re on, I wish you well on that journey!:D

              In astrology the sort of people whom you attract or to whom you are attracted is something which the 7th house in your chart might show or help to elucidate. This is a good article about that house and about using astrology for understanding relationships – http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_dgsevhouse_e.htm – it’s written by an excellent astrologer.

              Venus, Mars and the Moon are also relevant in the relationship story shown by your chart.

              Your statement that love has ‘shaken you to the core’ is reflective of the conjunction you have of Uranus/Venus/Sun. Venus = love. Uranus = being shaken. Sun = the core.

              Since they’re all in Scorpio love will be experienced intensely and will have a profound effect on you, triggering growth, change, evolution. Scorpio in esoteric astrology has 3 stages of evolution – Scorpion to Eagle to Phoenix. For more on that type of astrology – http://www.alanoken.com/index.php?page=the-soul-purpose-of-your-sun-sign

              Scorpio Suns and Capricorn Suns tend to be compatible. It’s not unusual for a Scorpio to have several Capricorn friends or vice versa. Both signs are comfortable with intensity and with straight talk. There’s an entertaining tumblr run by friends who are a Capricorn and a Scorpio – http://cardinally-fixed.tumblr.com/ – which is all about Capricorns and Scorpios.

              Yes, I’m a Capricorn Sun. I’m an old Capricorn (47)… but there’s this quirky thing which Capricorns tend to do when it comes to age and aging, we tend to be older when we’re younger and younger when we’re older, we age backwards (although not physically) and tend to be far more chilled, sillier and happier the older we get.

              I’m not particularly attracted to specific signs and my friends are a mix of signs. I do tend to get along better with people who have strong Uranus and/or Pluto in their charts because I have both of those planets in my 1st house and I’m an intense eccentric, so it helps if other people are also intense eccentrics. If they have a strong Mercury too it tends to ease communication because it’s my dominant planet, but their Mercury has to be open and not rigid – Intellectualism is fun sometimes but on a constant basis it’s a bore (I bore myself when I’m being too intellectual). The mind needs heart, thinking needs feeling or it just becomes an arid desert.

              My Virgo rising with Virgo Moon conjunct Ascendant tends to attract people seeking a shelter in the storm of life because I often appear calm in chaos.

              I also have a strong Neptune/Pisces signature in my chart – feelings are logical if you approach them from the subconscious/unconscious perspective. Perception is not just done with the mind and thinking faculties.

              As for my blog, the only person it is ‘aimed’ at is me, my posts are conversations I am having with myself while I figure something out – the real conversation is underneath the words, in the spaces which often go unseen, on the wall behind the painting. 😉

              Like

              Reply

              • Lol your observations about love are not helping at all. ☺
                You must know, I was perfectly happy with my own understanding of peace, love and everything in- between until this person appeared and dumped their Pluto and Mars right in the middle of my lovely little triangle of planets in Scorpio. They also added their own moon and venus onto my Pluto. In squares. It feels heavy..For a person with that many planets in Scorpio I have surprisingly little interest in “heavy” i think.

                Besides my plans for 2016/17 did not include mulling over life and love. I was suppose to run free and roam among the stars!
                Now instead I’ve been brutally dumped back to earth, forced to deal with this? Bleh… I feel profoundly unlucky…

                So here’s a question for you. Can you spot people’s key aspects just by interacting with them? Take myself as an example. Would you have been able to spot my sun sign if I hadn’t told you (or I guess it’s the rising sign that is the first one recognizes). My Mercury aspects? Since you yourself are heavily influenced I mean? (My Mercury is conjunct Mars and trine Jupiter btw) would you have been able to spot my Meyers -Briggs?

                Personally I cannot spot anything of your astrological makeup I think.

                But I’d like to think I would have picked up on your N. maybe also your T as female Ts come across a lot different then female Fs(but i think you pointed out something similar further up)… but sometimes the N clouds it up a little, because N gives flair yes? And that flair can sometimes overpower the rest imo…. Also a strong T can compensate for an S, for me anyway. They bring logic, plain straightforward logic..logic and structure… that can be nice sometimes if you have a very strong N. So most likely i would have taken you for an N, and been unsure about the T/F… Cos the entire blog is feely, but in a “technical” way perhaps? It doesn’t give off the vibes of “woolen socks and knitwear” to put it like that. so i probably am not that good at spotting people after all haha.. However, are you ?

                Do you sense the differences at all? The nuances? I mean, you have alot of people reading and commenting and interacting here yes?

                Can you spot their core?

                Like

                Reply

                • There’s an old saying/joke – “If you want to make God laugh, tell Him about your plans.”

                  2016 also happens to be the ‘Year of the Monkey’ in Asian astrology and Monkey years tend to be unpredictable, full of upheaval, strange twists and turns, opportunity knocks… you over, expect the unexpected. The Monkey year is a Trickster year. Never make plans for the year of the Monkey without also making contingency plans for when your plans fall through and you fall out of a tree. 2016 was a Fire Monkey year so the unpredictability of it included plans going up in fire, bridges burning, and inflamed minds and hearts.

                  It’s been an emotional year for everyone, and the world is a bit exhausted from the chaos which has occurred for all of us on a personal level and global one too.

                  RE: Can you spot people’s key aspects just by interacting with them?

                  Simple answer – No.

                  INTP style of answering (while thinking this is a ‘simple’ answer) – I don’t tend to try and figure out peoples’ Sun signs, Ascendants, charts, or their MBTI, or Enneagram type, or anything like that, when I interact with them.

                  Things like trying to figure someone’s Sun sign or Ascendant (as you’re more likely to ‘meet’ their ASC face first) or their MBTI requires the use of the faculties of Perception and/or Judgement and while those can be accurate they also suffer from the inaccuracy of personal bias (what we notice, what interests us, what we like or dislike about a person, etc). It’s difficult to be objective as subjectivity is ever present – scientists often discuss this as being a problem in their studies and experiments.

                  There’s also the matter of context – the surroundings and circumstance under which you meet someone as these will alter the way someone is and what part of themselves they express. Surroundings and circumstance will also affect you and your perception/judgement.

                  For instance many people are different online to who they are offline, so you’ll meet a diverse aspect of their personality – an introvert may appear extroverted online because the online world is a comfortable environment for introverts, they relax and may thrive here, thus they’ll be more like they are inside of themselves – the interior world of introverts can be very social 😉 You might ‘meet’ their Mercury sign online more than their Sun or Asc, or their 3rd house placements because social media is mainly about ‘Communication’.

                  Also online you’ve got a different set of parameters – it’s mostly done through written verbal communication, there is less sensory data to go by, no tone of voice (unless someone is vlogging or podcasting), no body language (body language in videos can be awkward, no facial expressions (okay, there are emoticons, but are those really accurate in reflecting the expression of a person) – photos, selfies, show the facial expression someone is willing to share (you may miss the micro-expressions), etc, to read, and while there are still ‘vibes’ and energy to pick up for the Intuitive functions and there are still cues, clues, feelings/emotions for the Sensing functions, the way those are processed may be slower and require more interactions to get a picture of a person.

                  To spot someone’s core… requires getting to know that person over a period of time, as most people protect their core. And while systems like astrology and MBTI can help you get to know a person and do so consciously, methodically, within a format… they sometimes end up obscuring what is there because you’re so busy trying to fit a person into known parameters that the really relevant parts of them splinter off because they won’t fit.

                  There’s always more to people, more to discover about them and who they are… just as there is always more to us for us to discover (an experience like falling in love can be quite a surprise for us about ourselves).

                  Blogging has been a very interesting experience – I’ve learned a lot about myself and others through doing it. I’m still learning…

                  I do get a lot of comments and people sometimes share things in the comments which reveal a lot about themselves, their lives, what moves them, what hurts them, how they see themselves and others, but as much as they reveal there’s an equal amount which is concealed and that must be respected (and kept in mind).

                  I am adaptable and shift myself to suit whoever I’m interacting with because it helps with communication. One of the first things you told me was that you were an NTP – so I’m more NTP with you.

                  Overall I tend to wait for others to show me their core – people always do. Our core wants to show itself 🙂

                  Like

                  Reply

                  • Heh…Yeah I guess I did reveal that, but I don’t think it was a planned action to make you interact in a special way, at least not consciously.
                    It was more like “heh…you are one and I am one- let’s play” kinda thing…nothing deeper then that…
                    oh and to be able to ask all the questions relevant and irrelevant under the stars of course! :p

                    I’ll probably go bored and empty of questions at some point and thus leave you alone… but… not yet 🙂

                    For example, how come your planets are spread so widely around your chart?
                    And what does that mean? Say…compared to having them all clustered like ladybirds(did you know they bite btw? ladybirds bite! how can something so small and dotted and red bite?)

                    Does it give you any “superpowers”?

                    Like

                    Reply

                    • It’s funny you should mention getting bored and leaving, just the other day I was browsing through Heidi Priebe’s excellent and entertaining MBTI stuff on Thought Catalog, and came across this:

                      ENTP: May delve deeply and intensely into your psyche, make you question everything you thought you knew about yourself and then completely disappear without notice.

                      via this – http://thoughtcatalog.com/heidi-priebe/2016/03/the-warning-label-each-myers-briggs-personality-type-should-come-with/

                      Thank you for the advance warning, that’s sweet, but I’m an INTP, and on blogs and other social media it is completely normal for people to come, comment, have an interesting conversation and go, never to be heard from again, so no worries, I will think well of you when you vanish, it has been nice internet-meeting you and comment-chatting with you. Best wishes on your living life adventures!

                      Re: Ladybirds – all ladies bite, even the male ones 😉

                      Re: Superpowers given to me by my chart shape…

                      Here’s a quick guide to chart shapes with explanations of what they mean – http://www.astrotheme.com/files/planetary-patterns.php

                      My chart is a locomotive shape powered by the Moon. It’s a fairly common shape so if it gives superpowers they’re ones which a lot of people have. In a room full of Supermans no one is super, they’re just mans.

                      Charts with stelliums like yours are sometimes considered quite ‘powerful’ and with Jupiter (esp.in Leo) as your dominant planet the idea of having superpowers is probably not farfetched. What you do with your superpowers will probably reflect your Pluto – as Pluto is concerned with power and how it is used, perceived, etc.

                      You might enjoy using the Astro Search Tools on Astrotheme to search through their database by Astrological Positions for those with similar placements to yours and see what others with a similar chart to yours have done with their chart superpowers 🙂

                      I have a question for you (which being a typical INTP I’ve already answered, but anyway, as there are always more than one answer to any given question…) – How can you empty of questions!? Getting bored is easy but running empty of questions… now that is a superpower! 😀

                      Like

    • Thank you 🙂

      I wonder if female INTP’s are really as rare as MBTI statistics say we are or if many of us hide it because we’re trying to fit in to a gender stereotype, not stand out and draw too much attention to a female not being typically female because attention = personal space invasion, or because as a female INTP our F may be on a par with our T and therefore we may test as INFP.

      It took me a long time to feel comfortable showing my INTP-ness in public.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

      • I’ve never really hidden it; my friends just chalk it up to social awkwardness. lol. But for most people I don’t really know, I just have a set list of conversation topics in my head that are really pedestrian and banal so strangers don’t get weirded out by me. But close friends kind of welcome it. I’m generally the person that my more emotive based friends come to when they need solutions and to vent. It’s a balance for me sometimes. However, having an INTP personality with an anxiety disorder is interesting. Relentlessly logical in your head while having a melt down.

        Like

        Reply

        • I can relate to the experience of having a meltdown while your mind tries to solve it logically. Sometimes it can be helpful, soothing, but other times it makes things worse because it interrupts the meltdown process and ends up dragging it out, causing it to last longer, never quite allowing it to flow to its natural conclusion, get the stuff out of the system.

          For the INTP mind a meltdown is a puzzle/problem to be solved by dissecting it, analysing it, and reasoning it out.

          It can feel like there’s an inner critic scoring your internal crisis (a bit like a film reviewer picking apart a film while watching it) and often deeming it unworthy, dismissing it as sentimental claptrap, nonsense with an illogical plot if it has any plot at all, etc.

          Meltdowns aren’t always logical, at least not while they’re happening. What triggered it may be a subtle something which is invisible to the naked eye. What it triggers may be within the subconscious/unconscious and therefore is usually hidden until it makes itself visible, but it’s language is metaphor, symbolism, visceral rawness. The INTP didn’t see any of it coming because it was in a blind spot for the type.

          Anxiety is a common experience for INTP’s. There are lots of threads on INTP forums, and quite a few articles online, about INTP’s suffering from depression, anxiety disorders, etc, and many theories about why the type is prone to them.

          Some theorise that it may be a commonality for Introverts due to the Introverted nature.

          Some think that because INTP’s are a rare type, thus there may not be others of their type in their social sphere, they feel alien, alone, and this increases the chances of having an anxiety disorder. INTP’s are acutely aware of being different = weird = misfit = wtf am I doing in this place and why is everyone looking at me funny, are they going to kill me for being a witch or imprison me and conduct experiments on me because that’s what happens to alien lifeforms on planet Earth!?

          Some consider it to be due to the way the INTP mind works and doesn’t work – the INTP mind takes in everything in its environment as part of iNtuitive Perceiving, and then sifts through it and processes it later, Thinking things through from a detached and safe distance.

          If you’re in a location which has a lot of stimuli this can overload and overwhelm the INTP system. Once the system is overloaded it shuts down – without the system to rely on an INTP feels vulnerable and at a loss as to how to behave, what to do, what to say, where to go. The INTP relies heavily on logic, thinking, when that isn’t working they may experience confusion, a plunge into the abyss.

          It’s a bit like when you rely heavily on your computer and your computer breaks down – now what?

          The younger you are the harder it is for an INTP because of the natural developmental phases of being human. The phase of human development where there is a focus on interpersonal interaction, socialising, integrating the self into the community, is probably the most challenging and painful for INTP’s. If you’re going to get an anxiety disorder this will be when it kicks in. Chances are the roots of it started in childhood, especially if you grew up with parents who expected you to be a ‘normal’ child and made you feel ‘wrong’ for being the way that you were naturally and normally.

          Learn to make friends with the illogical – not everything has to make sense, the nonsensical can be blissful and beautiful. Meltdowns can be an ally – a time out from thinking, a time to just be… human and connect with the atoms which are a part of everything and sometimes explode, shiver, quake and change the landscape.

          The weird of an INTP is needed on this planet, if it wasn’t we wouldn’t exist (and we do exist even if we’re sometimes not sure about that) 🙂

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply

  37. Oh but that page had a lot of fun quotes…

    INTP: “May fact check literally everything you say and catch you in any attempt at a lie or exaggeration.”

    Given the quote above, if I told you that there was a limit to the amount of questions in the world I should think I would get caught for exaggeration of the truth. ☺

    And I cant believe you “preemptive goodbyed” me .… that’s so very “entpish” of you but…you are an intp lol… Besides, I’m not finished yet….I think?… I cant really leave before I’m finished…And I’m not finished before I know everything I need to know, and I don’t know what that everything is yet. (which is weird indeed)
    So maybe, maybe you shall be all old and gray before I leave you..heh…(good thing internet years are like dog years yes? 🙂 )

    I wanted to ask you two more things about astrology tough.

    Those links you posted, with Capricorns and Scorpions. Do you.. I mean.. Do they reflect you? And the way you think and behave? (as a Capricorn I mean) Im just wondering because every time I read such things about Scorpions and they all come crawling out of their little caves to ”Scorpion” together, I cannot help but think their lifestyle of lurking in the shade and being all sceptical and ”scorpiony” seems to take so much time and effort. I mean jealous and possessive? Personally I want people to be free to do what they want, also those I am in a relationship with (like butterflies? Or….im actually afraid of those so maybe not), something that doesn’t go very well with jealousy and possession.
    You did mention different kinds of scorpions, your link didn’t lead me to any more understanding of that tbh.. care to elaborate? (Alternatively link something else? I’m good at pressing links tbh) ☺

    Also how does Pluto determine your way of power usage? I mean yours is in uhm.. I can’t remember… Virgo? Mine is in Libra, how does that make us project power differently? Or maybe that doesn’t matter since its generational and I shall have to look at the houses? Does that mean I have to re-read your posts? Hum..oh…not that it matters just…there are 12 of them you know ☺
    heh, maybe you need to write about the planets now, alternatively suffer me nagging you endlessly about them…but all my questions will be good so it wont be real suffering exactly I think. Plus ascetically some them do look very pretty, such as Neptune for example.. .pure planetary lushness.

    Ps:I think ive found your superpower though, its empathy yes? When did you find it? Or rather, how did you find it. How did you figure out it was something you could(should?) use in a positive way in regards to others? Or is it just a “lucky” bi product of your blogging? Hum.. these are perhaps very odd questions actually.

    Like

    Reply

    • Haha 😀 While that quote about INTP is fairly true, I don’t tend to fact check everything everyone says, that would be exhausting, a time waster, an invasion of privacy and also makes listening difficult. I tend to only fact check the things people say which make me go Hmmmmm… anomalies, things which don’t fit into the picture they’re presenting.

      For instance if someone keeps telling me they’re empathic but their behaviour and/or stories present a different picture… that would make me go Hmmmm… and dig a little deeper.

      But you saying something like “there was a limit to the amount of questions in the world” wouldn’t cause me to investigate what you’ve said as this is your perspective, an opinion, your experience. I might do a variation on Hmmmm… about it because it’s an interesting statement, the idea appeals to me, it’s a possible puzzle, but I would look into it out of curiosity for myself, to expand or contract my mind, rather than to catch you out in anything.

      As for exaggeration of the truth… everyone does that 😉

      I thought you might find the pre-emptive goodbye amusing, also it gets that out of the way and now you can disappear without worrying. People I chat with via my blog often vanish and sometimes return a long time later – for an INTP time is kind of irrelevant, yesterday could be 10 years ago, tomorrow could mean in a hundred years time, 5 minutes may be 4 hours.

      Besides I often know when someone I’m talking to is about to never be heard from again, as this is something which happens quite a bit to INTP’s – I’ve heard other INTP’s discuss it – and not just online. The INTP has a tendency to at some point say something, point something out, which other people don’t want to hear. Sometimes an INTP who is aware will try not to say that thing or point it out, or attempt to do it tactfully – but tact is not a strong ability for INTP’s – it can create more stress than it’s worth (and there’s curiosity to factor in – how will the person react, will they behave predictably or surprise), so plop, out it comes. It sounds like ‘plop’ to an INTP to others it often sounds like ‘bang!’

      INTP’s like MBTI posts like this one and find it funny and think the twisted genius behind it is a cute and cuddly being (more so after reading their About) – https://zombiesintelligently.com/non-fiction/myers-briggs/

      So, enough of that and more about astrology…

      RE: Capricorns and Scorpios and sun signs being reflective of you, me, etc… it’s a sun sign, it’ll be accurate some of the time sometimes none of the time. Very much depends on the interpretation you read (most interpretations of Capricorn are boring to read), who you think you are, and the rest of your natal chart. Lots of people don’t identify with interpretations written about their sun signs – if they ask an astrologer about this the astrologer will tell you to look at your chart for the answer.

      This is an article about that – http://www.thefrisky.com/2013-03-29/astrology-101-5-reasons-you-might-not-identify-with-your-zodiac-sign/

      With Uranus tightly conjunct your Sun you’re going to be ‘different’, unusual, eccentric, and if you’re not different then you’ll go out of your way to be different, and others may see you as being difficult because every time they try to pin you down you slip slide away – if you were playing tag you’d always be not ‘it’ not matter how many times you were tagged, but you’d suddenly be it when you felt like being it. You’re a free spirit who is full of surprises and in love with being the biggest mystery in your life (due to Venus being caught up in the conjunction). Your Uranus/Sun – changes the Scorpio experience for you, and may also make the typical Scorpio experience fascinating/repulsive to you because it’s not you and you’ll always wonder why it’s not you but will be glad that it isn’t you. However wanting to know everything about someone who you’ve fallen in love with… that’s a rather Scorpio approach to relationship – but that could be because you have Pluto in Libra)

      RE: Pluto

      Everything Pluto right here – https://www.scribd.com/doc/31151867/2204105-Pluto-Sign-House-Aspect – lots of scrolling to do with lots of info about Pluto in the signs, houses, from various astrologers.

      Planets like Pluto – generational ones – affect us on a generational and personal level. They make us part of a collective experience while also singling us out for our own personal experience of that placement.

      Pluto in Libra – power in relationships, the use of power in relationships, you versus other, you + other, relationship dynamics, power in systems which Libra represents – Justice, Legal system, maybe politics (Libra is the diplomat of the zodiac). Activism of some sort may be of interest.

      This sentence of yours – “heh, maybe you need to write about the planets now, alternatively suffer me nagging you endlessly about them…but all my questions will be good so it wont be real suffering exactly I think. Plus ascetically some them do look very pretty, such as Neptune for example.. .pure planetary lushness.” – very Pluto in Libra, subtle use of power game, manipulative yet expertly disguised with charm, and oh… look at the pretty Neptune butterfly!

      You can nag me if you want to that doesn’t mean it’ll get me to do what you want me to do… you’ll have to try it out to see what happens 😉

      Empathy… long conversation… different types of the stuff… link – http://www.skillsyouneed.com/ips/empathy-types.html

      gotta go, bye 😀

      Like

      Reply

      • You know, one of my biggest flaws (but also the one I indulge most and actually love most) is the way I always end up asking the same question several times to see it from different angels. Not necessarily to figure out people, but to figure out things I don’t fully understand. From an objective point of view that is. I always think (or hope) that if I can figure out why other people do something, then I can use that knowledge on my friends or myself regarding..uhm.. well idk…”life stuff”. It’s also a great starting point for pondering. It’s nice to ponder trough (with? With is probably the more polite way to put it) others.

        With that in mind…why do you love astrology so much again? And when did you fall in love with it?

        Do you ever feel hum…exposed when you share your planets and chart like you have done? What if people used it for something idk..like something not good? I have absolutely no idea how you can misuse someone’s chart but someone probably would have found a way. Like for example when I tell you my Pluto is in Libra you will be able to determine my age(ish +/- 10-12 years yes?) and if I tell you my sun is in Scorpio you will be able to determine my month, and suddenly you know shit loads about me.I bet if one was a really skilled astrologer you could tell and predict a lot of my reactions and actions from a chart yes? I mean you already have to a certain degree when I have specifically asked you yes? Don’t you find that a little scary? That someone sits on all that information about you?
        Then again, you have to actually believe in astrology to feel exposed, and I haven’t decided yet if I will so…maybe this is all irrelevant until I’ve decided yes?

        Also do you have any retrograde planets if so can you feel them? I’m unsure how they are suppose to feel compared to “normal” ones since the one I have has always been retrograde. I only got one personal planet retrograde, and i do wonder how it is suppose to affect me.

        Oh one more thing. You have Mars in Scorpio yes? How does it play out? I can imagine it being a typical placement for someone that works themselves to the ground because they genuinely believe “where there is a will there is a way”, and then totally neglect the fact that the “will and way” has a body attached to it which doesn’t run on wishes and stubbornness. It runs on water and food and all those other boring things organics need. Luckily for me my Mars just tipped over in Sagittarius(with one degree).
        Which is probably a good thing, as I got enough planets as it is in scorpion already.

        “Clever and charming use of power ” huh?
        Hah, I would so very much love to tell you how that is indeed true and that I constructed that sentence with care to convince you that my idea was the best. That would indeed have made me both clever, and charming (and very, very creepy lol ).
        You must know however that on my Meyers Briggs test I score very high on N, so even if I seem “clever and charming” its always very uhm…. intuitive, almost unconscious… I don’t actually do it on purpose(which means it cant be a result of planets?), I wouldn’t have thought about it at all had you not mentioned it specifically.

        That said, I’m pretty sure that plea would have worked on most others haha ..
        Then again, most others would probably not have articulated their astrological articles in a way that was equally pleasurable for my brain to process, thus maybe id have refrained from asking them in the first place.

        Besides I shall not nag you or beg you.. i shall simply ask you questions and if they are interesting enough I’m sure you will reply, if they are boring you may ignore them 🙂

        ps: I noticed you refer to Skyrim. Where did you find that dragon? I’ve never found a speaking dragon in Skyrim, I never finished the game neither tbh, every time I try to do something attached to the main plot I get dragged off on some insane side plot and forget all about it. Besides, I accidently rolled a cat and they have tails! And I’m telling you, regardless of what clothes you put on it, it’s absolutely impossible to make that “rug” look good. That tail waving in your nose constantly is not that picturesque after 100 + hours…they are also very furry.. super furry in fact…

        I think the most interesting thing about the entire game is how they portray the Viking Jarls (especially the females) they all sit in such an “I’m a boss” posture on their thrones. Now, have you ever tried to sit like that yourself? At home? Its such a weird position to sit in. And it doesn’t make me look bossy at all. I really don’t know how they pull that off you know. Perhaps one has to be a cartoon? Or very masculine, but… those females don’t look that manly. I think?

        The soundtrack is very nice, it what I use if I have to do longer sessions of deep concentration at work. Its great for writing hehe…

        pps. we are so not done with empty btw.. I just totally forgot about it lol( but the article was informative)

        Like

        Reply

        • For Skyrim and the talking dragon you need to play the main storyline connected to dragons – it’s very cool as you absorb dragon souls and also a little bit sad as you have to kill dragons.

          For this – “Do you ever feel hum…exposed when you share your planets and chart like you have done? What if people used it for something idk..like something not good?” – and all the words and thoughts which came afterwards… while this is a question worth asking especially online and the answer may be interesting, the more interesting question and answer is – Why did you ask it? What does that question reveal about you? Why focus on that part of everything?

          For an ‘E’ that’s an unusual question considering that ‘E’s love to share… it’s more the sort of thing an ‘I’ would ask. “I’s are always paranoid when sharing and take a long time to realise that most people don’t listen when you share stuff about yourself.

          As for someone who wants to use what you share for the ‘not good’… you just breathing can be used for that if someone is going to do that kind of thing. Overall most people don’t really notice you, they’re too busy noticing themselves… sometimes in you.

          Why are you interested in Mars in Scorpio if you have Mars just tipped over into Sag? Who are you trying to figure out and why?

          What would you do with the knowledge astrology might give you if you believed in it?

          Like

          Reply

          • Hum….what’s wrong with the question? I’m not sure it reveals anything about me really? Does it? Surly others must have asked you that before? It’s your astrological blueprint you keep broadcasting after all yes?
            And many of your readers will be newish or in process of understanding astrology? It would be only natural that they studied it and toyed with it in different ways. It would be a part of gaining deeper knowledge into the field of astrology one should suspect. Its the natural thing to do if you are into patterns and knowledge gathering. Now I’ve actually not done it on yours as I am preoccupied elsewhere, but I’ve given it a glance and spotted your Mars…
            Personally I think I would have felt uncomfortable sharing my natal chart…. The more I learn about astrology thus more uncomfortable I think I would have felt.
            Maybe I’m just surprised, given the topics and themes of your blog that you are so open? Or maybe I’m simply just a private person trying to figure out how others can be so open and not care about it at all?

            But “why did I ask the question in the first place?” hum.. well, there was always a chance you would have written some thing interesting back yes? You do that sometimes you know..Ive seen it with my own eyes….just saying ☺

            I also don’t think it’s a weird question to ask for an E at all, ask me to share anything and you would probably get an essay back, I do enjoy sharing and debating and discussing things through. Objective things. Feelings, relations, politics, science, games… exploring things as concepts if you like, from a universal point of view.
            I do however not particularly enjoy sharing “me”, my core and my identity(even though I probably do it all the time without noticing).
            I think its because I get enough attention as it is really (and yes it sounds ridiculously arrogant, but I really do. Astrologically id probably blame it on an active Uranus placement that conjuncts both Sun and Venus) I don’t need any more. And I don’t need people to try to “figure me out”, I don’t even know why they want to do that, but the fact they do, it’s a total turn off for me tbh…

            I don’t think it has anything to do with being E or I. Why would “I”s be so paranoid about sharing anyway?

            Also I think you are wrong btw. People do listen(even when you share stuff about your “boring” self), heck even I listen, and im the most self absorbed person I know of. I literally don’t care. At all.(Well its not entirely true but almost)
            Despite that, I usually accumulate lots of knowledge about the people I find interesting. Not the obvious stuff or the trivial things, but their quirks and weird habits, what makes them special. What makes them “tick” so to say..
            What do I use it for? Heh.. sometimes I use it to make one of the guys at work make me coffee. He makes it perfect and is a fun guy to chat with. Thus it all turns into a “making- drinking- waiting for coffee break” with someone fun.. like an job kinderegg of excitement. Who could resist such?

            It goes the other way too, people know things about me even though I myself think I’m rather secretive. They remember stuff, silly things with no meaning, That we spoke about months ago. its obvious people pay attention.
            Now, if this happens to me, then it is definitely happening to others also. I am not unique(even though I do sometimes like to pretend I am).

            And you are right, I am trying to figure someone out, someone that happens to have the same Martian (Martian? Marsia? Meh you get the picture) placement as you, almost exact. Their mars sextiles their Venus. Not trine.
            And since I like them, I want to figure them out lol (I know they are an infj). The synastry affects me a little I think. But since I don’t want them to know I’m trying to figure them out, id rather not ask them about their stars and discuss astrology with them.
            They are simply too clever not to connect the dots so to say..
            Now, I could read about it, about Mars in Scorpio and how it plays out, with sextiles to Venus, ok, perhaps I already have, but its always better to hear it from someone with experience on the field, don’t you think?

            Like

            Reply

            • That thing you don’t want to do with this person – that’s what you should be doing.

              Stop wasting your energy and time with me when it’s all about them and you.

              You’re trying to figure them out in pieces, through others… that’s not how you figure someone out.

              What is it that’s frightening you so much about them, about being straightforward about your interest in them (btw, with a Mars in Scorpio be direct, subterfuge will get you into huge heaps of misunderstanding trouble with them), about sharing your core to know their core?

              You’re awesome, they’re awesome because you think they are… take a risk, see what happens.

              Or are you afraid that they’re not as interesting in person as they are in fantasy, that once they know you are interested in them and share themselves with you, you’ll know too much about them and you’ll get bored (as often happens with an ENTP) and suddenly this person who was the Sun, Moon and Stars for you… meh!

              Or is it vice versa… you’re afraid of them finding you boring (no one would ever find an ENTP boring, or a Sun/Uranus boring).

              Take a leap of faith in yourself!

              Like

              Reply

              • Hah! Seriously, if you were to be a weapon I’d say you were a sledgehammer (and a very blunt one).
                Here I am, “innocently” throwing thoughts around peacefully, gracefully even… like a giraffe perhaps?
                Yeh, like a giraffe…out on the savanna, nipping leaves and looking down on the other giraffes, daydreaming (possibly moaning just a tiny bit) with my head in the clouds and then” boom” down comes the hammer… no tip-toe, no cute words…. Just one massive blow that send the entire solar system orbiting my head.

                Now that put me in my place (possibly also out of my misery, for a while anyway) something that obviously amuses me as it happens so very rarely…. (it would not hurt with a little cushioning next time though … just saying 🙂 )

                What am I afraid of you ask?

                Hum…. You seen Westworld yet? Do you think it’s true? That true growth and evolution only comes through misery and pain?

                That’s such a raw deal ,suffer and evolve or be happy and stay stupid?

                Also…. Have you always been idk…aware of yourself? Your core? How your projection of it affects others?
                OK, maybe that was a stupid question(s) as most kids do not know this. But…. when did you discover then? Or rather why did you discover? And…what did it do to you?… I think?

                Oh, and I’m not afraid of anything btw (except from spiders and butterflies and maybe a little bit of supernatural stuff that aren’t supposed to exist).
                That said, I do generally enjoy being the “master of my fate and the captain of my soul” …
                I find it rather uncomfortable when they rest in the hands of someone else.

                You know, when I started to peak into astrology, I naturally had to “star -spy” on all my ex -lovers (not that there are that many but you know, I don’t exactly look like a Diplodocus, which means I’m bound to have had at least a handful yes?) …. Turns out they all either had Mars in Scorpio or Mars conjunct Pluto (in fact its Pluto everywhere!)
                I think it’s only natural to have a certain curiosity for something that “meddles” so much with your life, the only “similarity” so to say. I was actually a little shocked when I saw it and can’t believe that the person I’m pursuing atm has the same. I want to write it off as “simple coincidences” … It’s a little eerily. I don’t think I even like people with typically “plutonian” qualities.
                So yeh, mars in Scorpio is interesting indeed…I know i dosent act in isolation from the rest, though maybe it sends off a certain energy mark or something?
                Maybe its like the salty liquorice core within the otherwise boring ice cream? the one everyone goes for? (mmm ice cream with salty liquorice its simply the best!)
                Im not actually trying to figure them out in piece, im trying to figure out pieces of them. Make sense?

                And it’s not all about “them and me” that was just the catalyst, its mostly about exploring uncharted territories in general. But ofc I would never ever look into this in the first place if it wasn’t for the fact I… uhm…I don’t really know… am having someone entangled in my “heart-roots”( and I can’t seem to get them out at all, it seems they are stuck (!)). I was kinda looking for logical answers to why…heh.. Maybe they dont exist, but if they did exist the could easily have been hiding within astrology. Just saying.

                Now, what is it really about…. I think it’s all about exploring what is behind the curtain yes? But I’m not sure.

                Oh, why did you start looking into Meyers-Briggs btw?

                Like

                Reply

      • I loved reading this , I have been with my Narc 3 yrs and moved out a yr ago and now have left him after a fight yet again . Them making us crazy is so true and I have not go down lightly I’ve called him out mask is off long ago and I played a few tricks like you did games ect …fun but not there annoying, always so big shot drives me nuts …wine when losing Bragg when winning him n his Mother ukkkk,,, I have Heidi Richard TV on my channel on YouTube and I’m new n learning but I understand the poisen tactics of covert narcissist n I suffered enough …no contact , its crazy how my heart all of me wanted to fix this , him , us ..I know Its never happening and understand , hes a monster the face yelling, blaming, evil. I hope to hear from you 🙂

        Heidi Richard TV

        Like

        Reply

        • Thank you for sharing 🙂

          Keep doing what you’re doing, informing yourself, figuring things out bit by bit, at your own pace, in your own time. Having a relationship with a narcissist can turn everything back-to-front and topsy turvy and leave the mind and heart confused.

          Focus on yourself, on what you have discovered about yourself through having this experience and use it as a positive inspiration for your life. There’s nothing that can be done about the narcissist, but you have complete power over how this relationship affects you from this point onwards.

          Take good care of yourself, be gentle with yourself. Best wishes for a happy narc-free future!

          Like

          Reply

  39. Dear Upturned Soul

    I “loved” your blog here and for a Brit to be so enthusiastic, means it must be good! Seriously though, after three insane years I have only just, in the last few weeks wrestled back my own power which I had handed to him on a plate.

    I feel utterly humiliated that, despite the wise advice of friends, i never “got” what was happening. Mind you? Some friends were also taken in by Prince Charming.

    I kept on in there, giving more of myself until I thought I was loosing my mind, which for a mental health professional is not a good advertisement.

    Apart from the actual content I liked your style and your sense of humour. It made me smile. Smiles have been in short supply recently. Sometimes you feel someone knows EXACTLY what one has experienced. Ive just had that experience. Thank you.
    Steve.
    London UK

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you very much for sharing 🙂

      Feeling humiliated is probably one of the worst feelings in the world, and it is often a component of being in a relationship with a narcissist. While it may be painful to do so, it can be quite helpful to look into the humiliation and ask yourself how much of it is really yours and how much of it belongs to the narcissist. Narcissists tend to worry incessantly about being humiliated and pass that part (along with other parts) of their wound onto those with whom they get intimately involved.

      Humiliation is a teacher of wisdom, and has more benefits than negatives once the ugh factor wears off.

      Be careful of 20/20 hindsight, it’s a know-it-all who gets given a soapbox and a blow horn when things have gone wrong in our lives, who doesn’t respect that the last thing you need when things have gone tits up is to be told about all the things you did wrong which got you into this mess, it likes to pompously point out all that you didn’t see (which hindsight finds glaringly obvious) and all the advice from others which you didn’t listen to and make you feel worse than you already do about it.

      re: all those who knew your Prince Charming was an evil frog and tried to warn you about it…

      It’s always easier to see what’s going on in the lives and relationships of others when we’re sitting in a comfy chair, eating crisps, drinking a beer in a small sliver of sun on a cold Summer day, detached from the scenario, watching it like a TV show we’re streaming in back to back episodes. When we’re not the ones caught up in the moment and situation, time slows down, details stand out, and we see what we wouldn’t see if we were in the thick of it personally. Chances are for them to be ‘wise’ they’ve probably had a personal experience similar to yours and they learned things the hard way just as you have. What you’ve been through now entitles you to be a card carrying member of the wise friend club, and you’ll soon be warning others about the Prince Charmings in their life… and they probably won’t listen to your wise advice because they’re human and need to learn things for themselves, have their own experiences.

      Besides… strong characters who have a hella strong will never listen to wise warnings. And strong characters with strong wills are very attractive to narcissists – they want what you have!

      If we listened to all the warnings everyone else gave us… we’d end up never doing anything out of the fear of making a mistake, but mistakes are lifeblood, and we’d miss out on a lot of good experiences while protecting ourselves from a possible bad experience.

      The important things to focus upon are:

      1 – thanks to this experience you are now aware of your own personal power and what you do with it more than ever before. You now have a personal point of reference which will stand you in good stead for the rest of your life and is far more valuable than anything you’ll ever read in a textbook.

      2 – even though you almost lost your mind, and thought you had, you didn’t and your mind is now sharper and smarter. The best way to find out what we actually have is when we lose everything for awhile.

      3 – you’ve discovered how strong you are and how much ‘crazy’ you can survive. This is priceless!

      4 – you’ve got a deeper understanding of others and of yourself. A relationship with a narcissist can actually cause us to end up having a better relationship with ourselves (and with other people) because it makes us connect more profoundly with our psyche in order to rescue ourselves from the chaos they cause within us. We may end up with a better understanding of who we are and what we truly need (rather than what we think or have been told we should need and want).

      Humour is, imo, a very important component of recovery when it comes to narcissists. While it is necessary to take your pain and suffering seriously, honour it, validate it, wallow in it for a certain period of time while things sink in and teach us what we need to learn, and to analyse the dynamics of your relationship with a narcissist, and research NPD to understand the narcissist (not sympathetically or empathically but to figure out how NPD works, doesn’t work, and what part it played in the story)… laughing about it tends to signal that healing is taking place.

      But you do have to work through the anger, the anger phase is also an important part of the process – shout, shout, get it all out!

      While doing some research awhile ago I came across a narcissist recovery group in London – https://www.thelondonnarcissisticsupportgroup.co.uk/ – I have no personal experience of it so I have no idea if it’s good and worth trying out or if it’s best avoided (some narc-recovery groups may contain narcissists, particularly of the covert narcissist kind, especially these days). But I though I’d share the link… what you do with it is up to you. Trust yourself (and re-learning to trust yourself after a relationship with a narcissist is an endeavour that yields much relief).

      5 – you’re human… let yourself be human! Even mental health professionals are prone to losing their minds – how can you help others find their minds if you’ve never experienced what it is like to lose yours.

      Best wishes on what happens next… take good care of yourself, be gentle with yourself, cut yourself lots of slack and let yourself have a larf (when you’re ready to do so)! 😉

      and thank you very much for your love for my blog! Much appreciated!

      Like

      Reply

      • I am so thankful for these honest informed thoughts. I have been beating myself up and totally lost the ability to discern what is a ‘real’ thing and what is me overreacting/overthinking a situation. My Mom is a Narc, for sure. My sister is the type you described above – with all the hindsight to point out exactly which word in my email was the one that made my adult siblings decide not to participate in a family vacation. (Which is so ridiculous, but I’m afraid to do anything other than listen to her criticism for fear that she will turn on me.) Sadly, I turn to both of them to help me navigate through little things in life, knowing that they will both support and condemn me for the situations I get into.
        Recently, I took a job working for a friend that I’ve liked. I make a tiny portion of what I made in the professional work world, but I wanted to be home more with family. My friend is different on the job, she is controlling, overbearing, wastes time being unproductive, and is condescending. She is late to work and quick to snap. Her co-workers complain to me about her and I fear that anything I say will be a problem. So, I want to leave this job, but I am so afraid that she’ll get made or give me the evil eye – that same feeling that I get with my 75 year old mother, my sister, or some of the others I’ve allowed to make me feel this way. I fear that my kids will see me leaving as a failure on my end. And, then, I question myself – am I overthinking? overreacting? taking things too personally? I just don’t even know anymore. So, it could be me, right? I just know that I’ve let way too many people in my life with the narcissistic personality. I’m on guard for it, so it caught me off guard when I started to see this in my friend/boss. So, maybe I’m a bit crazy – seeing it again. Or maybe, I’m right and I need to run from this job and this friend. Here’s the thing. I’m not really up for another failed relationship. I’ve been married for 20 years, happily for the most part. I held the same job for 16+ years until I had kids. I’ve had normal friendships for 35 years. So, I am capable of sustained healthy relationships, but I let the unhealthy creep in and consume me sometimes. Then, it pushes me to behaviors that I dislike. For example, I complained to a coworker about my friend/boss after I became aware that none of them like her. And I hate myself for doing that. It wasn’t a big deal thing, but still, I wish I didn’t do things like that. Anyhow, this is rambling, but I want to listen to whatever your thoughts are because I’m so confused and really want to stop having to walk away from bad relationships. It’s really sad.
        Thanks.

        Like

        Reply

        • Thank you for sharing 🙂

          If you grow up with a narcissist parent you’re going to get programmed by the narcissist into thinking that the ‘problem’ is always you. The narcissist parent passes on their wound to their children – if there is more than one child, then each child gets a different part of the wound. The ‘golden child’ has to succeed and live up to the ideals of perfection of the narcissist parent, they often end up also being a narcissist (or appearing to be that way because they mimic the narcissistic behaviour of the parent to win their approval) and the ‘scapegoat child’ has to fail, make endless mistakes, be messed up, be the ‘crazy one’ so that the narcissist and the ‘golden child’ can be the ‘sane ones’, the perfect ones, the successful ones by comparison (in instances when there is only one child, the narcissist parent may take on the role of the ‘golden child’ or the child is split into two golden child/scapegoat child), be the dumping ground for the shadows and secrets of the narcissist parent.

          For more about the narcissistic wound, this is a very informative article – http://energeticsinstitute.com.au/narcissism/

          As is this one – https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolution-the-self/201110/the-narcissists-dilemma-they-can-dish-it-out

          Both the scapegoat child and the golden child are constantly trying to ‘win’ the love of their narcissist parent – which is a never-ending quest with the parent withholding love to control their children, and often threatening to not love the child if it refuses to be controlled and do the narcissist’s bidding.

          The consolation prize for being the ‘scapegoat’ of a narcissist is – you’re actually healthier and saner than you’ll probably ever realise (but the narcissists in your life will make your healthier/saner self seem the opposite, they will attack that in you because it freaks them out, scares them, and makes them feel bad about themselves). You have the ability to self-reflect, to pause and review yourself, and this is a valuable skill to have, it’s one which narcissists do not possess (or if they do possess it they avoid using it as though it is kryptonite – it is for a narcissist). While self-reflection is a wonderful ability to have, it comes with self doubt (which is useful in moderate doses, and is part of humility, compassion, caring, and empathy) and therefore self-reflecting around narcissists can make you second, third, fourth, fifth guess yourself until you’re so confused that you leave the door to your self wide open for a narcissist to step in and take charge of your thinking and feeling.

          For more about the effects of a Narcissist on the psyche of those in a relationship with them, this is an excellent article to read – http://narcissisticbehavior.net/narcissistic-victim-syndrome-what-the-heck-is-that/

          an excerpt form that article:

          “Once a person has become a victim of a narcissist (whether it happened in childhood or later on in life), the victims are already unconsciously primed to enter the narcissist’s “convoluted dance” that opens them up to further abuse. It is necessary for the therapist to gently shine a light on what they are doing in the dance that makes them a victim. Once again, a “Narcissistic Victim” is any person who is harmed, injured or killed by a person who displays pathological narcissism (which can occur on a spectrum of severity).
          The victim needs to understand that this “dance” of codependency requires two people: the pleaser/fixer (victim), and the taker/controller (narcissist/addict), together both partners dance beautifully in perfect step, and the madness begins. The consequences for the victim not understanding the intricacy of the dance, is that, no matter how often they try to avoid “unhealthy” partners, they will find themselves habitually returning to the same dance floor; the only thing that will change is that they will find themselves dancing to a different tune, but always the personality of the dance partner remains the same.” from the above linked article.

          I shared that particular excerpt because of your situation with your friend/boss. It sounds as though you’re repeating with her the dynamic you have with your mother and sister. It can be hard to resolve certain issues with the narcissist/s of origin, especially when they are close family, and those issues often emerge in other relationships – where it may be easier to tackle the issues.

          What you said here – “So, I am capable of sustained healthy relationships, but I let the unhealthy creep in and consume me sometimes. Then, it pushes me to behaviors that I dislike. For example, I complained to a coworker about my friend/boss after I became aware that none of them like her. And I hate myself for doing that. It wasn’t a big deal thing, but still, I wish I didn’t do things like that.” – this is self-reflection at work in a healthy manner within you.

          The way you behaved in that scenario is natural and normal, the group dynamic you’re in is one where people bond over bitching about the boss (this is fairly common in the workplace), you may be friends with your boss (which puts you in an in-between position that is rather difficult – narcissists often put people in that position, they often get others to fight their battles for them) but you’re an employee and joining in a bitching session about your boss with the other employees shows the group that you’re one of them rather than a ‘stooge’ for your boss. What you did was in some ways an instinctual survival tactic – had you not joined in chances are the group would have decided that you were ‘the enemy’ rather than an ally. You were being tested by the group and you passed the test that time.

          However it left you feeling bad and rather than justify it so that it became good and needed no further thought, you took time to self-reflect. One of the things your session of self-reflection highlighted is that the workplace you’re in is an unhealthy environment for you – both the employees and your boss/friend are acting out in unhealthy ways, making the environment you’re in what could be termed ‘toxic’ for you. At this time you’re caught in the middle, trying to appease both sides, trying to be nice to everyone, have everyone like you, but why? What’s the reward for being caught in the middle of angry employees and an angry boss, both of which could turn on you in a split second, be mad at you for not being who they need you to be for them (while doing nothing for you in return) and all of whom are stuck in their respective positions of seeing themselves as the heroes fighting the villains, and none of them are going to do anything about it other than bitch and be angry.

          This may be a relevant article – http://brettnewcomb.com/working-with-the-most-difficult-client-the-health-rejecting-complainer/

          and excerpt from that article:

          “If you are not a professional, you will also have encountered this individual. It might be your boss, your co-worker, your neighbor or a friend. The primary description of the help rejecting complainer is that they are emotionally an empty vacuum that attaches itself to you and sucks the life, energy and creativity out of you. When they leave you, they are full of your energy and operating on your drive and creativity, and you are left depleted and exhausted and empty. You may recognize that you are angry, but it is difficult to place the blame on any thing specific that they have done.

          The help- rejecting complainer will come to you with a level of praise for your ideas, your knowledge and your importance in their lives. They will say that you are the only thing between them and death or disaster. The tension will build as they place the responsibility onto you for solving their problem, telling them what to do, answering the questions of the universe.”

          Do you know the full reasons why your friend hired you, was she perhaps hoping you’d fix the problems she created for herself in her workplace. Are the employees using you as a go-between because of your friendship with the boss. Does everyone expect you to solve a problem they created and they’re not willing to solve for themselves.

          If you were given the role of ‘scapegoat’ in your family of origin, be careful that other ‘families’ don’t also end up making you a scapegoat for them too. Patterns tend to repeat until we recognise them fully, learn from them, and decide to change how they play out.

          If I was in your place, feeling what you’re feeling and knowing what you know personally about narcissists and narcissistic behaviour, and in a position where I didn’t have to do the job because my survival and that of others didn’t depend upon it, I’d get out of there ASAP. If you don’t need to put up with a toxic environment and the people feeding the toxicity, then don’t. You may be stuck putting up with your family of origin, but you don’t have to put up with that kind of dynamic elsewhere just because you do it with your family of origin.

          One thing which stood out sharply in your comment was this – “I fear that my kids will see me leaving as a failure on my end.” – have you spoken with your husband and children about your dilemma and asked them for their views on it? Sometimes input from those nearest and dearest can be insightful.

          I’m sure your children will definitely not see you as a ‘failure’ for quitting a job which is making you miserable. Talk to them about it if you’re worried, let them participate and weigh in. Your kids love you and want what’s best for you (what’s best for you is best for them too). Think of the example you’re setting for them in both cases:

          1. What example do you set if you stay in a workplace where your boss is a tyrant and the employees are constantly bitching about the boss, with you caught in the middle, finding yourself acting out of character and hating yourself for it.

          2. What example do you set if you leave that workplace, trust your instincts, are true to yourself, and choose being healthy and happy, free, over being stuck in a toxic environment.

          You said that you want to be at home more with your family – who are you when at home with your family? What do you bring home with you after work? If your days at work are stressful, does that stress change how you are at home with your loved ones?

          While I can understand not wanting to lose your friend over this – is this friend and her friendship worth all the other things you might lose to keep this friend and her friendship, and stick it out in this job for her?

          If she is genuinely a good friend and her friendship is a good one, then you should be able to discuss this situation and problem with her in a reasonable manner. A good friend will understand your choice even if they are upset and disappointed. A good friend has the same desire as you do to nurture and take of the relationship because they value it as much as you do. Disagreements happen, fights and hurt feelings may occur, but a good friendship can handle the bad moments and outlast them, because both people work together.

          You have the right to do what’s right for you, and if it means walking away from another bad relationship, then that is what needs to happen for the sake of having a good relationship with yourself.

          If you decide to stick it out, stay in the job, then you need to find new ways of dealing with the situation, ways which will allow you to not lose yourself to keep hold of this friend and her friendship.

          From the sounds of it, I get the impression that you’ve already made a decision about what you want to do. I wouldn’t say you’re overthinking or overreacting. It’s a difficult and complex scenario, and you’re conscious and mindful of that, and taking the time to consider things and think things through. The way you express yourself is clear, concise and level-headed. Your approach seems to be on of reviewing matters in a logical manner, weighing different perspectives, researching further, cross-referencing data, until you’re ready to make the decision final.

          Best wishes with whatever you decide to do, take good care of yourself, and be gentle with yourself!

          Like

          Reply

          • Thank you so much for caring enough to share so authentically and with real wisdom. I read everything yesterday and let it settle in. I need to allow the settling to happen over the next few days. Your comments gave me peace. I find myself seeking peace and instead end up in turmoil as I worry when I am in a season of ‘striving’ to not be the bad person that my Mom, sister or an occasional controlling friend determine I am. It’s strange, because even though I know that their behavior is crazy and out of line, I still feel the need to appease them, to quell their anger or angst, and to accept their criticism, because doing otherwise meant that I will be complained about to others. It’s odd how that type of emotional blackmail really works with me.

            Even as they make me out to be the villian in their minds and share their opinions openly with others. So, I find it’s in my best interest quite often to convince them that my intentions are always good. Even in doing that, I know that the more I explain, the more they judge and feel open to criticize me more and explain to me that what I am saying about myself is not true. Every once in awhile I will ask them to pause and turn away from their unfounded judgement of me or others, but it almost seems like they find their purpose in teaching everyone else what is right and wrong. And, sadly, I find myself looking for their advice or encouragement when I have a situation like wanting to quit working in a toxic environment. I genuinely get confused about if I am overreacting when I am around people who are quick to control for fear that they will get mad at me. So, I seek their approval in fear of their rejection, as if they will define me as a failure unless they got to create the narrative for me. Yet, still, in a few years, I might hear them refer to the time I didn’t do what they wanted. It’s as if they have a huge ability to remember anything that can be twisted for negative talk in years to come.

            I have another question, though. It’s often these people who want to give me gifts, and then check back to make sure that I’m using the gifts. It isn’t consistent, but it’s like their way of showing their approval, but also their way of creating an illusion of control. I don’t get it why a friend would spend so much time and money giving me gifts that make me uncomfortable. It’s like a total rejection of my ability to like a friend just for who they are. Or in my family’s case, it’s a way to make sure I remember things they did for me. When I say I don’t want the gifts – I am accused of being ungrateful and difficult. It’s a no win. Do you have anything to read about this type of situation?

            Lastly, I’ve found myself keeping quiet and not sticking up for myself in a few situations where lies are being told about me. It’s hard for me to know that others believe the worst about me – only because someone else needed to build themselves up. I’m talking about some siblings and friends of a controlling friend. But, I see no value in talking about my ‘side’ of something. I always trust that keeping my mouth shut will yield good results. But, still, I know that unfounded gossip is appealing to people and it hurts my confidence incredibly. In a way, it really is true that these so called people who ‘love’ me really love controlling and hurting me and making other people see me in a negative light. But, I think they think it’s love. I think they don’t know better. I think that retribution for a perceived offense gives them so much satisfaction that they create drama and offense just for the thrill of retaliating and watching someone squirm. In fact, I have an old ‘friend’ who did this to me, and I see her in our neighborhood quite often. Her marriage has fallen apart and she is miserable. I’d really like to be kind and friendly, but I am so afraid that doing so would invite the crazy back into my world, so I avoid any niceties. I keep my wall up to protect myself, but it’s more work for me than it would be just to offer kindness.

            Anyhow, this is alot, but I am so grateful for every word you share. So if you have time for more sharing, I am very grateful. You have an amazing healing gift and a beautiful way of encouraging.
            Thank you.

            Like

            Reply

            • Thank you 🙂

              re: Narcissists bearing gifts

              The gift-giving of narcissists tends to serve several purposes for the narcissist.

              1. A gift may be given when they need to reinforce their chosen persona to themselves – if they feel bad about themselves for some reason they might give gifts to others to prove how good they are, and thus feel better about themselves.

              Certain narcissists will shower you with gifts shortly after a rage/tantrum. If they character assassinated you during the rage/tantrum the gift is their way of saying – forgive me and forget that tantrum happened, I’m a good person.

              If this is the impetus behind the gift giving then your acceptance, use, and thus gratitude for the gift will mean that you have forgiven and forgotten, and everything can go back to ‘normal’. They’re the good guy/gal again.

              My mother did this one all the time to prove how ‘generous’ she was. She once took a large sum of money out of my savings account (yes, I know, it was stupid to give her access to it but not giving her access created a giant drama) to give to a complete stranger who claimed to be in financial trouble – this stranger was a con artists who chose his mark perfectly. My mother didn’t tell me about this until much much later because, in her words, she was afraid I would get angry with her (poor her!).

              Narcissists are very sensitive to rejection and constantly need positive mirroring/reflection from others to maintain their sense of self/persona. If you don’t use their gift then this = rejection, and is a negative reflection/mirror image of them. They will get deeply hurt at any sign of rejection of their gift (which for them is a rejection of them, who they are, etc), and may retaliate later on when you give them something to make you feel their pain. They tend to store up rejections and minor hurts.

              2. A gift may be given to make you ‘owe’ them a favour. When certain types of narcissists give a gift what they’re actually doing is doing you a favour to make you owe them a favour in return. If you accept and use the gift then it means you’ve accepted the contract and terms and conditions (strings) attached to the gift.

              In this scenario they will remind you of their generosity and gift giving when they are asking you to do something for them – the return favour they demand may be above and beyond the gift they gave you.

              My father used to buy airport trinkets as gifts and then expect intense gratitude at his act of love and undying loyalty to his cause in return. One plastic bead necklace = you must now go forth into battle for me and kill one of my enemies (and die doing so if need be).

              3. A gift given usually = the narcissist wants something from you. What they want may be immediate or may be for later. They are not giving gifts to show their approval of you – as that would be about you and nothing is ever about you, it’s all about them, unless their ‘approval’ is the gift they’re giving to get you to owe them and give them control over you.

              My father’s long time partner ‘helped’ me after my father died. She claimed she was doing this to respect his last wishes. This is a romantic story which is bs. What she wanted to do was screw over my mother and to use me to do that (she’d used me before in this manner). My mother also wanted to ‘help’ me after my father died… for similar reasons. These two women were still fighting over him and anything goes when a narcissist is at war.

              Be careful of narcissists bearing gifts of any kind.

              As for what to read in connection with this…

              This is an article worth reading – https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolution-the-self/201311/6-signs-narcissism-you-may-not-know-about

              This one is specifically about narcissism and gift giving – https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201512/the-narcissist-s-guide-gift-giving

              an excerpt from that article:

              “The same feelings of insecurity that can drive narcissists to want to out-do everyone else can lead them to want to make their gifts as lavish as possible, regardless of whether they fit the recipient’s needs and desires. For example, at a wedding shower, those high in narcissism will want to make sure not only that they bought the most expensive items but that everyone else is aware of just how much they spent.”

              However I would mostly recommend researching ‘power’ games/tactics, the psychology of power, philosophical teaching about power, etc, as most things that narcissists do, both consciously and unconsciously, is about power – trying to get it and trying to stave off their feeling of powerlessness – in one form or another.

              The 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene is a good place to start. He cross references with other books (like the oft quoted and followed by those in business – Art of War by Sun Tzu) and theories of how to get power over and control others. The 48 laws often contradict each other, take it too seriously and you’ll end up confused, but treated as information to help spot when you’re being manipulated and it’s a useful read, especially if you have regular contact with narcissists.

              “Be wary of friends—they will betray you more quickly, for they are easily aroused to envy. They also become spoiled and tyrannical. But hire a former enemy and he will be more loyal than a friend, because he has more to prove. In fact, you have more to fear from friends than from enemies.” ― Robert Greene, The 48 Laws of Power

              Like you, the narcissists in my life made me develop a bit of a ‘gift phobia’… my rejection of gifts did not go down well with them because it made them feel insecure (who the hell did I think I was rejecting their generosity!?!). When a narcissist feels insecure and can’t find a way to solve it using ‘niceness’ they resort to emotional blackmail and nastiness. They basically poke you all over until they find your weak spot. Anything to get you back in line with the script they’re using for their reality.

              If your ‘weakness’ is to not like being thought badly of, to not have others believe the worst about you – they’ll use this to manipulate you/to get you to manipulate yourself on their behalf. They’ll use the ‘gossip’ about you to get you to prove that you’re not all these bad things which are being said about you. For me personally, I eventually learned that there was freedom in embracing being the baddie/villain – it was an open door to my cage. Trying to prove I was good/nice to narcissists gave them control over me and ultimately made me miserable, kept me trapped in a tiny cage (and made me a nightmare for non-narcissists because I was so screwed up when it came to healthy relationships).

              Best quote ever – “What people in the world think of you is really none of your business.” ― Martha Graham – this takes awhile to understand and let sink in, it can rub the wrong way but it does make sense, at least imo it does. It’s liberating. People are going to say what they’re going to say and often what they say about you has very little to do with you and is all about them and the image they’re creating of themselves using you. Gossip feeds those who gossip and if you react to their gossip they’ll feed off of you even more because you’re making yourself tasty and nourishing.

              re: keeping quiet and not standing up for yourself… sometimes this is a solid tactic and this sort of thing is best evaluated on a case by case basis. Sometimes standing up for yourself is done by appearing to not do so – and sometimes you have to shout and stomp.

              As for your old friend who is down in the dumps, who treated you badly and who you’d like to be friendly with – never smile at a crocodile, but if you feel compelled to do so don’t be surprised if once your kindness and friendliness has helped her get back up, she once again does to you what she did once before.

              Value yourself and share yourself keeping that value in mind. Remember there are people in your life who appreciate your worth without needing you to prove yourself to them – they’re the ones who truly deserve your attention and what you have to give!

              Take care of yourself!

              Like

              Reply

  40. I am a narcissist who is trying to evolve into an actual person. I guess I’m in recovery, but sometimes I wonder…
    What I like about your blog is that it’s not “nice” and it’s not “mean” it’s just honest, and authentic. I know while reading it that I’m tapping into a persons experience.
    Thank You!!!
    However, I struggle with wether or not reading your blog will make me a more manipulative narcissist. In the moment, it is eye opening to relate to, but I have a fear that I’m already a manipulation expert, and the more I learn, the more I’ll use.
    I guess it just comes down to self control.
    So, with more meaning this time,
    Thank You!!!
    I met someone about 6 months ago who turned out to be the daughter of a narcissistic mother. I didn’t know that then. She’s brilliant though, and hillarious! She is a behavioral analyst. She’s been through the wash and has a lot of baggage and I can tell I set off every red flag in the book when we first met.
    She’s dated people like me before.
    And that’s the thing…
    She challenges me.
    She doesn’t give me anything to work with directly when we’re talking, but she does seem to be speaking to me in terms I can understand, from a distance. She doesn’t ignore me, or completely reject me(though I wish she would to put me out of my misery)), but she responds with both subtle and gross ways of making me want to be a good person.
    I knew I had a personality issue for awhile, and I started addressing it before I met her. She ignores me when I try to initiate response to serve my need for it, but may respond in a form of allegory on social media, and I take that as instruction to better myself. It seems to give feedback for both my positive and negetive behavior.
    I want to think we’re soulmates because it would be so much easier that way.
    It would be this wonderful Grandiose scheme played by the universe for me and her, but mostly for me, if not ALL for me.
    And realizing that might be why I think I actually love her. I don’t just love the IDEA of her. She is a good person and she knows it. She doesn’t have to try and be a good person, she just is one. I think I love her because she could do anything, and she does just that.
    It could be ANYTHING.
    It’s terrible.
    But it’s wonderful.
    It’s exhausting,
    But it’s inspiring.
    We’ve never met physically. We’re acquainted to the point of knowing the same people, and being at the same places at the same time in our past. I was thinking that my personality looks at that as thinking “I’m lucky I havnt really messed this up yet, and if I do at least I don’t have to see them.etc…” and that makes me realize that the easy way out is an exit that I know I can jump to.
    She hasn’t rejected me, though she certainly knows when I’m trying to get a response. I feel more and more capable and confident, and I am grateful she challenges me. It’s beyond words how painfully healing it’s been.
    Is it time for me to let go? I’m fortunate that my personality problems are are not as progress crippling as I feel they could be. I think my developed NPD (I also have OCD) more or less started when my father died when I was 7. I didn’t acknowledge how I felt about it, and some other traumatic experiences, and I think as a kid I lied and told story’s and tried to be funny to secure a sense that I was doing better than OK. I can piece my past together and remember painful feelings associated with events. I think I’m going to be ok, and do not want to move backwards. I don’t know how I did so many things without questioning what I was doing. I’m ashamed, and I wouldn’t be if I had been more self aware.
    I feel like I’m in love because I finally understand separation is the same as union. Time doesn’t really freak me out in this. It’s a process to get better, and I only want to approach her when it is actually ME, and not survival mode “me”.
    Your blog helped me come to terms with thinking about the fact that helping me or not helping me is her decision, and me acting on it is mine. I don’t deserve anything for changing, and as long as I think I’m doing it FOR her I will be setting myself up to fail. I have to do this for me, and the work I put in is its own reward.
    I guess this is my way of thanking her, because I don’t want reassurance I’m saying the right things, though; constructive criticism is welcomed. I don’t like the idea of positive reinforcement on this one. One day at a time I’m going to evolve, because I want to. Not because I have to.
    Thank you!

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you very much for sharing 🙂

      I think your observation – “I guess it just comes down to self control.” – is spot on! Self control is a component of self-mastery (and manipulation is a component of self-control).

      To achieve self-mastery requires a descent into our own underworld, the Hades within, to know the ins and outs of our shadow and makes ‘friends’ with it, make it an ally rather than an enemy.

      Sometimes before we understand our own shadow, we explore those of others first – we learn about the shadow of others, which is what a manipulator uses to manipulate. Self-control evolves out of that – to control others you have to control yourself. Self-mastery comes from seeing that the shadow of others is also a shadow in you, that what is used to control others can also be used to control you, that self-control to control others can become a prison for you as much as it can be for others… because all power comes with a personal price to pay.

      We evolve from one state to another when we’re no longer willing to pay that personal price, when the pleasure no longer outweighs the pain, when the rewards no longer make up for the losses.

      Being an ‘actual person’ basically means being exactly as we are, which can be at times as ugly as it can be beautiful, and that means realising we’re not as picture perfect as we’d like to be, as we can make ourselves out to be using smoke and mirrors and photoshop and instagram filters, or as others would like for us to be which inspires us with a desire to be the perfect person others dream of.

      Society and its ideals has a lot to answer for when it comes to the increase in narcissistic tendencies in people. Do we really want to be narcissistic or have we just been funneled down this channel of behaviour due to pressures from the outside bearing down upon us both collectively and individually.

      Do you really want to be manipulative or have you found that it’s the ‘easier’ option when dealing with life and the people in it?

      Have you found that there are times when other people indirectly request that you be manipulative rather than take a straightforward approach?

      Of course they’d never admit to it if asked directly because they too, even though they’d swear until they’re blue in the face that they don’t have a narcissistic bone in their body, are narcissistic and need to maintain their public persona, need narcissistic supply… even though they’re not narcissists (or are they!?!)

      Have you ever found that a lie is what others want from you rather than the truth?

      And that you’ll get rewarded for the lie or manipulation and punished for the truth and blunt simple approach?

      For example, let’s take that trope of – Do you think I look fat in this?

      Or since that has now been deemed politically and otherwise incorrect, and therefore taboo to use… let’s take another example, a more personal one – When you were a child and your father died, did you feel that you could safely show how you felt, that others were there for you, supportive, helping you to get through a traumatic and life-shattering event, or did the adults in your immediate environment need for you to suppress your emotions, thoughts, feelings, issues because they didn’t want to deal with it, didn’t know how to. A grieving child made them feel inferior, vulnerable, powerless helpless… and they didn’t like that. Since they were ‘in charge’ what they needed trumped what you needed. So you put on a ‘happy, I’m fine’ face for them, you were brave, strong, squashed your real self down for them… and saw through the eyes of a child (the most cutting, searing honest eyes you’ll ever find) that ‘being grown up’ is a scam and adults are con artists.

      The thing about narcissists is – a portion of who they are is more honest than non-narcissists will ever be. Similarly to sociopaths they have a stark grasp of the world as a stage and all the people are actors and audience. There’s a schism which separates them from the collective. They continue to see through the eyes of a child – this is a powerful insight, however it becomes twisted with rage, frustration, and other factors. They see the hypocrisy of ‘healthy, normal, non-narcissists’…

      If all the world, and all the people in it are living a lie… does it matter if you lie? Aren’t lies part of the fabric of reality?

      If everyone else is being manipulative while calling it by any other name, righteously justifying it which vocabulary that dresses the ugly up in chic… does it matter if you manipulate? Doesn’t it make it a pre-requisite of integration into society?

      If society is narcissistic,and worships the narcissistic way, isn’t being a narcissist the way to join ’em and beat ’em?

      (thoughts brought to you partly by my father’s take on being a narcissist – he was surrounded by a-holes, so to be king or at least not be a pawn crsuhed and used by others he had to be a better a-hole)

      and… if they could just sublimate themselves, but… to do that you need to understand base desires, instincts and motivations and that’s quicksand.

      To rise above it all is exhausting, depressing, draining… the only thing to do is get away from it all, but… then you have to contend with isolation, outsiderhood, loneliness longing for human touch, connection – it hurts to have it, it hurts to not have it…

      Will you become more manipulative reading my blog? No, you’re too smart and self-aware to be influenced that way. I’m sure you can see the exact moments when real me talking from experience (which includes my own personal experience of being narcissistic and manipulative) switches off and goes into telling people what they want to hear mode due to suddenly being self-conscious that what I was writing was being read.

      You comes across as having skills which make you too aware to ever not be aware of yourself and of others and their effect on you – unless you chose to not be aware because it serves you to do so.

      You’re standing on a threshold which looks like a precipice – the best thresholds always do. And this amazing woman who has been a source of intense creative self-discovery friction is a part of that. I wonder what her take on this would be – from her perspective of herself and your part in her own self-discovery?

      What you’ve described about the connection between you and her, and your description of her, reminds me of the dynamic between Wendy Rhoades and Chuck Rhoades and Bobby Axelrod from the TV series Billions.

      She sounds like she’s that unique person who can change the atomic structure of those with whom she interacts, but who also changes her own structure in the process and may bear the burden of never being known simply as they are because they come to represent too much for others.

      Sometimes being you with someone is as much about them being able to be themselves with you – a challenge which everyone finds daunting. Do you take take leap or and let the leap take you wherever it leads or…

      Best wishes!

      Like

      Reply

        • There’s a saying that I am having trouble breaking down that really fascinates me.
          A person who feels APPRECIATED will ALWAYS do more than what is EXPECTED.

          The way I read it had “Appreciated,always,expected” highlighted. It’s been in my head for a couple days on and off. And I wonder what you make of this saying?
          I appreciated your response so much!

          Like

          Reply

          • I hope you don’t mind, I used the quote you shared as inspiration for a post and shared some of my thoughts about it there. I tend to go off on tangents 🙂

            Overall the quote is fairly straightforward.

            It’s basic human – we all like to be appreciated and if someone gives us appreciation, we’ll be favourably biased towards them and this might mean we’ll make more of an effort for them.

            I would say that ‘ALWAYS’ is probably the most problematic word in the quote.

            This quote is written in ‘optimistic’ positive thinking language. It’s a ‘motivational’ saying for ‘pro-active’ business practices. It’s actually manipulating the user of the quote’s advice to be more considerate and less of a ball-buster for selfish reasons – you’ll get more out of others if you give them compliments rather than criticism as nourishment. Add sugar or honey to your interactions and that will energise others to work harder for you to give you more than you’re paying for.

            A person who feels appreciated by us MAY do more than what is expected by us of them, but then again the appreciation we gave them may be what they expected – expectation tends to be something that flows both ways.

            Some people may do more than expected due to appreciation.

            Some people who are appreciated for what they do may actually do less than expected because being appreciated isn’t what motivates them to act – some people try harder if they’re not appreciated as they want to prove others ‘wrong’ about them. Criticism is what gets them going and doing more than expected.

            Some people may see appreciation as the point where they can stop making an effort, they’ve reached a plateau and can now relax.

            It depends on the individual person (on both sides of the equation), and on the scenario.

            Context is relevant.

            In certain societies/cultures it is ‘expected’ that individuals do more than is expected of them whether they are appreciated for it or not. It is a matter of personal pride to offer the best service to others, to do your best for others. Appreciation for their efforts is a bonus, but it is not expected and may not influence their behaviour when given.

            In other societies/cultures appreciation won’t necessarily get you more than expected, in fact you may be seen as a fool for giving appreciation where perhaps little effort has been made, or regular effort has been made and this is normal, expected… it is what it is so what’s all the fuss about.

            In some situations giving appreciation (to get more than expected) will be treated with the suspicion it may well be due.

            This quote is a formula – just like aspirin, which is all some people need to feel better, while others need something stronger, and others never feel better no matter what they take.

            Like

            Reply

  41. Is it ok if I email you about some stuff that I don’t know how to ask other people?
    I promise I’ll do my best to keep it practical and not a constant stream, but The precipice I’m on has quite a few sides to it, and you give perspectives that have quite a few sides to it.
    Is that ok?

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for asking. Sorry, but I don’t do email with my blog, in fact I tend to avoid email when possible elsewhere in life. If you have any questions or thoughts which you feel able to share via comment please feel free to do so and I will give my two bits.

      Seeing optional perspectives is just what my MBTI type – INTP – does. Frankly it can be a pain in the arse as much as it can be useful, especially when it comes to making a decision.

      Anyone can see multiple perspectives, it just requires wanting to do so (which can be challenging as some perspectives may be ugly, uncomfortable, not what we want to see and for it to be), being patient (especially with yourself), and then placing whatever it is you’re contemplating on a rotating table and spinning it around slowly.

      A method known as critical thinking is also useful – https://www.skillsyouneed.com/learn/critical-thinking.html

      You’re very smart. You’re also very capable. When on a precipice (or what feels to be one) it can cause vertigo (particularly if it stirs up emotions) which means you may forget just how intelligent and able you are to deal with it yourself – so remind yourself that you can figure this out. Give yourself time to figure it out – don’t push yourself if you’re not ready to be pushed.

      If you decide to take a leap and then decide the leap was a mistake – mistakes are not to be feared, they’re life’s experiments, information gathering devices, and many of them can be undone once the data from them has been mined. Sometimes the only way to figure out one of life’s puzzles is to make a lot of mistakes. Sometimes a mistake is not one at all and can be a breakthrough, a liberation from all the gumpf which is binding you to an untenable situation.

      My favourite visual reference for one of life’s precipices is from the Indiana Jones franchise:

      It’s a bit corny but it’s fun, and has a certain crazy wisdom to it 😉

      Like

      Reply

      • It’s funny, but if you had said yes, then I would have sent you an email about the last week that would undoubtedly would have resulted in interpretations and an outlook from you that I wouldn’t be able to digest properly.
        I sorta got thrown a curveball by life and I was looking for a different pitch. It was better that I went through that at-bat on my own.
        You’ve done more for me than I can quantify. And I will always comment here in practicality and curiosity. But I want to say that the thing I am most appreciative and thankful for is that you said no to emails and yes to more open conversation.
        I wasn’t bothered or even bummed really that you said you couldn’t do that, but I had no idea how great it was for me that you couldn’t.
        Thank you for everything!
        And I hope all is well.
        Your ever well wisher
        Greg

        Like

        Reply

  42. Hi Ursula,
    I have just realised that the “answering questions” page has been inactive for a while.
    I would be grateful if you could please delete the comment I posted on there if you can?
    Thanks in advance

    Like

    Reply

    • Hi,

      your comment has been removed as requested.

      If what you’re looking for is an ‘active’ site where others with astrological knowledge will weigh in on your situation, I recommend commenting on an astrological forum such as the one on Elsa Elsa’s blog – https://www.elsaelsa.com/forum/ – you can also ask questions directly of Elsa, the astrologer running the site, as she is very hands-on.

      Your story sounds as though it may be connected to a transit going on in your own natal chart, and you may find that the answers you’re seeking are in your own astro rather than this Capricorn man’s, and that it isn’t a Sun sign issue but something to do with other planetary placements in the chart (perhaps your Moon and/or Venus, it’s also worth checking out your Chiron). It sounds as though maybe Jupiter transiting Libra is involved as you mentioned experiencing both sides of the dynamic and that often happens with Libra when it is teaching us balance, it gives us the opportunity to experience opposing extremes to eventually find a middle ground between them. Transiting Libra has been squaring transiting Pluto, and transiting Pluto is in Capricorn.

      Astrology aside, in answer to why someone would want to keep seeing you and keep you hanging on even though they’re not willing to commit to a serious relationship with you – the key is ‘love’. Love is an ego-boosting, self-esteem uplifting, inspiring, and addictive substance, and your passionate feelings for this man and the way you express them towards him are something which he would find nourishing, exciting, and would want more and more of. He likes what you provide for him and he doesn’t want to lose that, however he also doesn’t want to lose the stability which his family and social setting give him, and his reputation in his community is obviously important to him too. So he’s trying to have it all – which is not good for you or for his wife, but he doesn’t seem to be interested in anything other than what he wants at any given moment.

      Take good care of yourself!

      Like

      Reply

      • Hi, Thank you so much for your reply and also removing my comment.

        I’ve had a look into my birth date and planets, I have not heard of the Chiron before? but it was in Aries when I was born, I do not have the correct time of my birth but I know it was around 1am! I am unable to ask my beautiful Mum as she has passed. But I will definitely look into this, thank you once again for this information.

        Regarding my story, I think you are spot on, love is a drug and once that has been “re-awakened” would be hard to walk away from but even harder to walk away from all that he has built up for himself and his family, as you say, security, stability, reputation are all very important to him.
        Although I have never met anyone as complex as a Capricorn man, I would love to meet a single one, watch this space! Girls on the other hand are great as my daughter is one!

        Thank you for your time, take care!

        Like

        Reply

    • Hi Ursula, I am quickly reading your writing about Uranus transiting your 8th house. Quickly since I am in the middle of stressful moving out of my home in the middle of a horrid divorce. I am also a Pluto/Uranus -child… I totally agree with your experiences in that concern. i wil come back to you later. We seem to have the same house division in natal chart, at least about. Pluto is transiting my 4th house, Uranus 8th. My progressive moon is on my asc right now 29 Virgo 57, or actually is around 9th June 2017. Bless you, Ursula.

      Like

      Reply

      • Thank you for sharing 🙂

        I look forward to hearing from you if you ever do ‘come back to me later’ – those with strongly placed Pluto/Uranus tend to have lives that constantly change (whether they want them to or not), and move forward with a momentum that doesn’t always allow for going or coming back to a spot once visited unless it is part of a spiral cycle of further growth.

        The transits you mentioned of Pluto in the 4th and Uranus in the 8th tie in with what you’ve shared of your life story atm. Pluto in the 4th can uproot us drastically changing home/family/roots – 4th house. Uranus in the 8th can make resources which we rely on that come from others change suddenly – the 8th = resources of others, but it can also point to hidden resources within ourselves which we may have openly projected onto others, when this house is activated outer sources may dry up forcing us within or outer sources open up forcing us outside of our comfort zone, and other optional scenarios where the resources we share with others change inner and outer landscapes/relationships/reliances and alliances).

        With Pluto/Uranus there are often storms (some of which have been lurking on the horizon and we’ve been staving them off) which hit that change the whole landscape of self/identity/life/routine/home/habitat, they can be traumatic, frightening, like being swept away by a ruthless tidal wave – the changes involved are always for the better but it can take a long time to see it that way.

        Be gentle with yourself, patient with your humanness, and let the flow take you where it does… don’t try and make sense of it all until it is ready to be made sense of.

        Best wishes!

        Like

        Reply

  43. Wow, had to scroll down a minute before I could find this box to reply! Well, that’s good news for your blog anyway 🙂

    Hi Ursula, you have an interesting blog and your about section is really creatively written. I’m an ACON too and probably that’s why I’m here. I always seem to attract users and hope you will help me understand the latest one who was a Capricorn man and who broke my heart.

    Me (a quadruple Scorpio, Mars Leo), and my Capricorn (Taurus moon/Aquarius venus/Sagg mercury/Mars Aries) classmate (departed with 2 kids and in his mid-40s), started off as study-buddies (I was helping him cos he was dyslexic and naturally I felt urged to help), were attracted to each other but he said he wasn’t looking for a relationship even though I had said nothing; still became physically close and he moved in with me within a month (college was closer to my home), he said he loved me the next month, and long story short we were together till the course ended 8 months later, which was last month. Throughout the relationship there was mutual caring and loving, however he never made time for me and the only time we spent together was at home either having meals or watching a movie at home if I was lucky once or twice a month. He would be studying ALL the rest of the time, I am not exaggerating, in school or attending his AA meetings. I pretty much did all the housework, laundry, cooking and deeply cared for him and loved him. I was very affectionate, always treated him outside with lunches or dinners, bought nice clothes for him and sometimes little things for his kids, even though he never let me have anything to do with his kids- I was off bounds. But more importantly I helped him with his studies and with every assignment of his as he had genuine difficulty writing and spelling, even writing all of a few of them and this was a science course and we had very hectic schedules. I was also most patient with him and his eccentricities, his impatience and bossy manner. I felt he lacked self-esteem and other internal issues and knew I had to be patient with him. Despite all of this, whenever I brought out the topic of making some time for me, he always would say he had no time to make as he his studies and on weekends he had his kids. He could have easily made time for me if he wanted to, at least once a month if not more, since he never got to see his kids every weekend because his ex wouldn’t allow him; and when that happened he would just study throughout the weekend.

    When there was no change to his making ANY time for me (apart from taking me to Starbucks for coffee on 3 occasions in 8 months) I started having deep resentment build up in me. 2 days after our exams ended in May, I asked him out for lunch and there I asked him if he was willing to make time for me, he said “No I can’t make time for you because you know I have my studies and my kids on the weekends” and a lot of other crap. I told him that he did not deserve me so and that our relationship had to end and I asked him to immediately move out of my home. He did, the same day, and I was left used beyond words, deeply betrayed and heart-broken.

    What I’d like your input on is what kind of a user is this man? What the hell was he doing in a relationship with me, telling me he loved me yet never investing in or committing to the relationship? Is he really blind, or dumb or plain very selfish and narcissistic? He never responded to any of the messages I left him or offered an explanation or even an apology, I just don’t get it but I do pray that life will teach him real soon what exactly it means to use people.

    Regards
    A heart that’s broken and a soul that has lost hope in this meaningless life

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      Sometimes in life having your heart broken, losing hope, and seeing life as meaningless can be a blessing in disguise of a curse. A broken heart allows what is imprisoned within it to break free and flow out, losing hope allows for delusions/illusions to shatter, life being meaningless allows for an empty space to occur where new meaning can be found. Since you have a stellium in Scorpio (which gives intense regenerative ability when deep inner work is done), and have called yourself ‘Phoenix’ it sounds like underneath the surface of it you view this as a transformative experience, a chance to be reborn anew and break free from the ashes of the old.

      Since you say you’re an ACON, there are certain patterns which an ACON needs to be aware of when it comes to relationships – one of which is the tendency to be attracted to ‘unavailable’ people, to chase after the aloof, the distant, trying to win the love of those who aren’t able to love (for one reason or another), repeating the pattern of trying to win the love of unavailable to love you parents. Him telling you that he was not looking for a relationship should have warned you off of him, but instead it may have acted like a challenge, triggering the pattern your parents set in motion, drawing you in without him necessarily intending it to do that as it hit a spot which is tender for you.

      Children of narcissists get taught by their parents to think that love is a quest (like those in myths, fairytales and romantic films, novels), that you have to work hard to win the love of others, that you must sacrifice yourself for the other and in return for your hard work and sacrifice the other is supposed to bestow upon you the prize of their love. But the love of a narcissist always remains like the proverbial carrot dangled in front of you – a great love you will always chase and never get, yet always hope one day you will win and the day that happens will be a grand release. It’s a narcissistic kind of love which rarely ends in happily ever after and usually ends in disappointment, resentment and loss of self to an other who doesn’t appreciate what you have done for them (sometimes because they’re a narcissist, but if they’re not a narcissist it may be because they didn’t realise they were part of a story which involved that kind of contract).

      This stood out in what you said – “I was also most patient with him and his eccentricities, his impatience and bossy manner. I felt he lacked self-esteem and other internal issues and knew I had to be patient with him. Despite all of this, whenever I brought out the topic of making some time for me, he always would say he had no time to make as he his studies and on weekends he had his kids.” – being ‘patient’ with someone in the manner you describe is what children of narcissists learn to be with their parents.

      When you’re in love with someone their ‘eccentricities’ are wonderful not something to be ‘patient’ with (to put up with until you fix the person or they miraculously change), you don’t notice what they ‘lack’ or what’s ‘wrong’ with them, and try to make them into what you think they should be, you just think they’re awesome as they are. His devotion to his children should have been something you admired (particularly if you had ideas of one day having children with him – he sounds like a good father) rather than resenting the time he gave to them which meant they took him away from you (Did you have siblings? If you did, did your parents make you compete with your siblings/or other significant others for their attention?). His dedication to his studies would have been encouraging as it shows that he’s someone who sticks with what he commits to and that he’s committed to bettering himself, has ambitions for a better life for himself and those close to him (Did your parents use their career or other pursuits as a reason why they didn’t have time for you?). While romantically it would have been great if he had abandoned all his responsibilities, his studies and kids, for you, it would have also shown that he’s not the sort of person to be relied upon.

      In answer to your questions:

      “What I’d like your input on is what kind of a user is this man?”

      Going by what you have shared of this man and his relationship with you, your words about him don’t describe a typical user or narcissist. You did not attract another user, in fact it sounds like you were attracted to a good guy – you mention that “Throughout the relationship there was mutual caring and loving” – who just didn’t have anything left to give to anyone, but it sounds like he tried, it just wasn’t enough.

      Using his astro – Cap Sun/Taurus Moon tends to be practical, responsible, stable, loyal, focused on the nuts and bolts of daily life, in search of creature comforts – for him this – “the only time we spent together was at home either having meals or watching a movie at home” – is quality time. Both Capricorn and Taurus are homebodies and love spending time at home – their home is their castle, their haven, and the comfy chair/sofa is their throne, their safe place, if they include someone else in their home time then it means you’re special to them even if they don’t show physical affection other than sitting in the same room with you and don’t talk much. This part of his astro is reflected in his approach to his studies and family. He is being responsible, studying to better himself – Cap Suns are always ambitious, and once they’re focused on an ambition they become completely blinkered. He is very devoted to his children – they will always come first before anyone else, which is a good sign.

      “What the hell was he doing in a relationship with me, telling me he loved me yet never investing in or committing to the relationship?”

      He did warn you that he was not looking for a relationship – if a Cap Sun warns you about something it’s worth listening to the warning. They may only warn you once, and if you didn’t heed the warning they’ll hold you partly responsible for what happens next. Capricorns are extremely slow when it comes to intimate relationships, especially if they have been hurt before. If they are focused on their career path, they may avoid romance entirely or be reluctant to enter into a relationship because they can’t give you the attention you need, unless you show signs of understanding that their career is important and show that you’re supportive of that (but your support must be genuine or you will end up resenting their career path).

      He told you right from the get go that a relationship was not an option for him, why did he change his mind?

      With an Aries Mars he can be impulsive, rushing into things on the spur of a moment, driven by a sudden burst of passion. Mars Aries can fall madly in love, propose marriage, want a big family with lots of children with their loved one, all in the space of one day, then the following day they decide that you’re not the one. Aries is known for doing sudden U-turns, rushing out as quickly as they rushed in, losing passion in a blink of an eye once the initial phase of it has worn off.

      An Aquarius Venus has a flighty reputation, doesn’t like to be held down, tied up, have their freedom limited by others. They want a relationship but don’t want one. They want the kind of love which is there when they need it but gives them lots of freedom to go off, pursue other passions, love others. They prefer independent partners who are comfortable with lots of time alone on their own in the relationship.

      His detached approach to your relationship could be seen as being connected to his Aries Mars/Aquarius Venus. Both Mars and Venus are important factors in a person’s relationship style and Aries/Aquarius are very independent, love their freedom to pursue their own thing.

      However his Taurus Moon needs comfort, closeness, loves to be mothered, to be cooked for, etc, and I would hazard a guess that his Moon found your need to care for him very appealing, attractive and nurturing.

      You sound like you were determined to have a relationship with him and made him an offer to care for him and he accepted the offer even though he was at first reluctant to do so, said as much, but you won him over – your Mars Leo has an irresistible charm, no one can say ‘No’ to you once you’ve decided you want them, especially not combining Mars Leo with a Scorpio stellium. You have far more power than you know you do or will admit to having. I would say that you were the driving force in this relationship, but you may have driven from the back seat and this caused confusion about the rules and direction of it.

      What you wanted from the relationship and what he wanted differed… but he thought you were on the same page and following the same route.

      “Is he really blind, or dumb or plain very selfish and narcissistic?”

      Would you really find someone who was all or any of those things attractive? He may seem to be those things now that the relationship has soured, and you’re angry with him, hurting, seeing things through pain-coloured glasses, and lashing out, but it’s worth remembering what it was about him that attracted you in the first place, because ultimately we hurt ourselves more by seeing those we have cared about deeply as being ‘blind, or dumb or plain very selfish and narcissistic’ – what does that say to us about us that we chose them to love? He sounds like he had many good traits, but he’s not the right guy for you and that is a painful realisation to come to terms with.

      He would not have offered to help you with household chores because it probably did not even occur to him to do so (and let’s face it household chores are boring chores and no one really wants to do them), he may have even seen it as something you enjoyed doing, as another part of your caring for him. Since his Cap Sun is completely focused on his studies to the point where he was most likely neglecting the needs of his Taurus Moon – you stepped in and provided the nourishment his Moon needed and he found that attractive and hard to resist, even though he knew that he was not really in a space or place where he could offer the attention required for a serious relationship. You won him over, but the prize for winning him over wasn’t what you expected. He was comfortable with the way things were, but with a Leo Mars you’re looking for the kind of passion that this kind of man with this kind of astro can’t give you, especially not at this time in his life when he’s building his personal structures (maybe in 20 years time he’ll have time to relax and be wilder).

      As long as you were okay with how things were in your relationship (or pretended you were okay with it), then he would have thought all was okay. Men think differently about relationships than women do, have different priorities, needs and requirements – this often causes issues in relationships between men and women. Men are often blind-sided by the issues women have within a relationship.

      The time he did spend with you was time he was giving to you – he’s given himself a tight schedule, with his kids coming first, his studies coming a close second (and they are very important to him as his studies will in theory make him a better provider for his kids and for others whom he considers under his care), and what he had left he gave to you. It wasn’t much, and unfortunately it wasn’t enough.

      “He never responded to any of the messages I left him or offered an explanation or even an apology, I just don’t get it but I do pray that life will teach him real soon what exactly it means to use people.”

      Sometimes explanations and apologies can be difficult to give, and saying nothing may be the only thing which can be said. If you wrote him one of those “here’s everything that’s wrong with you and everything you did wrong in our relationship” messages then don’t expect him to be anything but silent as he’ll be reeling from what to him seems like a 180 degree turn from love to hate on your part. Who he thought you were and who you have now shown him that you are probably seem like different people to him. He may be asking himself similar questions to the ones you’re asking yourself. And he most likely never noticed all the hints you hoped he would and dropped like breadcrumbs along the route of your relationship – if you want a man to notice something you have to tell him what it is simply and clearly, and he may not understand what happened. The lesson he’ll most likely learn from the experience is that he should have taken his own warning about not wanting a relationship seriously.

      The important thing here is what you’ve learned from the experience. Not about him, but about yourself. Look at your own chart, look particularly at the transits going on at the moment and how they’re impacting your chart. Today is a powerful New Moon in Cancer – time to focus on what you need to feel and be nurtured, and what you can do to infuse your life with more of it.

      Sometimes what we give to others in the way of nurturing and care is really what we want others to be giving to us, or what we need to give to ourselves. What happened to your studies while you helped him with his, what happened to you while you channeled so much of yourself into him?

      This is a good post about the Cancer New Moon and transits of the now – https://juliedemboski.com/2017/06/21/new-moon-in-cancer-23-june-2017-true-north/

      an excerpt from that post:

      “Caught at the midpoint of Vesta-Venus, the New Moon perfectly expresses the conflict between these two. What we dedicate our life energy to (Vesta) is in conflict with what we want, treasure, and desire, in areas of relationship and finance. How, you may wonder, could there be upset when the focus comes through us, through our values and what we want to have in our lives? The answer to that is, we carry conflicting inclinations within ourselves, and this New Moon shows us those conflicts, laying open the difficulties and making it apparent we must find a new way to reconcile disparities or contradictions between matters we care about. What starts at the New Moon points out the ways in which we carry internal disharmony in our wants, our interactions, and those matters where we earn and spend, with this latter including the spending of life energy. The new Moon says, You’ve got the facts (direct Jupiter), your vision is clear (Neptune retro), you’ve seen the result of thinking up to now (Superior Conjunction), now it’s time to sort out what’s not working in matters of energy dedication (to causes, efforts, projects, or people–the Venus-Vesta square, with NM at the midpoint).”

      With a stellium in Scorpio you’re a force of nature to be reckoned with – but you need to know it, own it, and show it beautifully, gracefully, like the phoenix!

      You’re going to be fine, you’ve survived worse than this, you know it.

      Take good care of yourself! Best wishes!

      Like

      Reply

      • Thank you dear for the detailed reply. You were right about many things.

        There is a lot that I have learned from this recent painful experience. For one, when a man says he’s not looking for a relationship, don’t let him start one with you. It’s my first dating experience so I’m learning slowly.

        I never resented him spending time with his kids, in fact I admired him for it and encouraged him to call his kids every few days because of how he got too carried away with just studying. And he did help me with the household chores now and then, I never had a problem there. And never did I expect him to abandon his studies and kids for me; that would only have made me lose all respect for him or any man for that matter.

        I was only deeply saddened by the realisation that I was never a priority to him, nor would be, not in the next 4 years at least, and for how he took me for granted without committing to our relationship. And because he was a top priority for me, and how I completely invested in our relationship, I found it highly unfair that he could make time for his studies, for his kids, for his AA meetings and for his volunteering activities, yet when it came to the woman in his life, he could not even spare a few hours a month outside home; that is not at all hard for any person, especially not for somebody as practical and grounded as a Capricorn. It only too clearly showed where I stood, and I did not deserve that nor am I interested in waiting for 20 years just to be taken out for dinner or a movie or a trip; for all I know I could be dead tomorrow.

        Making time for the man in my life is very important to me; even if I had 5 kids, a full-time career and was doing some night course, I would still see to that. Naturally I expected the same from him and I never left him guessing, I had gently broached the topic with him a few times. What I cannot tolerate is offering everything a man wants and in return having to be satisfied with getting to share the same room or couch with him; his mother or sister could get that if not a better relationship. I read recently that the Capricorn motto is : I use. Sadly, this could not have been any more truer for me.

        For some strange reason beyond my understanding, I’m still struggling with letting him go.

        Like

        Reply

        • Don’t be too hard on yourself about not being able to let him go just yet, letting go and moving on takes time, happens in stages, and requires the mind and heart to do so in unison (the heart and the mind work at a different pace).

          When you love someone, give them a place in your life, your heart, your psyche, sometimes you never forget them, especially if they’re a ‘first’ of a life experience. Since you say that this is a ‘first dating experience’, you may never truly let go of him but that doesn’t mean hanging onto the memory of him will be a burden. He represents a threshold you’ve crossed, life lessons learned, things experienced which show you the way forward – what you’ve learned from this relationship will play a part in future relationships, like your studies will play a part in your future career.

          The work of this author helped me a lot to understand the impact of relationships – https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199403/soul-mates

          Struggling is an intrinsic part of the being human adventure – what we struggle with is where we grow the strongest.

          Give yourself the time and space to process what has happened and how you’ve been affected by it, and gradually the letting go will happen and you’ll move on naturally.

          As for the mottos of Zodiac signs, they can be interpreted a myriad of ways, and it’s quite a good idea to pay attention to how we choose to interpret them. It’s worth remembering that in a natal chart we have all the signs in our chart, and at the moment Pluto is transiting Capricorn, and thus the part of your natal chart which has Capricorn in it will be highlighted and marked for a Pluto style transformation – in esoteric astrology ‘I use’ means taking the struggles life gives you and allowing them to transform you/or transforming them from something negative into something positive.

          This is an interesting astro read about relationships and a transit involving Pluto in Capricorn coming up soon – https://www.elsaelsa.com/astrology/mars-pluto-opposition-2017-hitting-curveballs/

          Take good care of yourself!

          Like

          Reply

  44. Hey. I am a 2nd-year student in college and I am doing an Extended project on narcissist/psychopaths and their children. So I wanted to ask whether you can help me in my project by answering a questionnaire that I have prepared (which I will send you if you agree) since you have been through this. Can you e-mail me if you want to participate, I’ll really appreciate it. Thanks.

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for asking 🙂

      I’m going to respectfully decline to participate, however if you have any questions you’d like to ask via blog comment, I’ll do my best to answer them. If you would like for me to share some questions in a post on my blog with other children of narcissists, let me know what they are and I’ll put them out there.

      I do have a question for you – Is your choice of topic for your Extended project based on personal experience? If no, what made you pick this topic?

      I wish you all the best for your project!

      Like

      Reply

      • Thank you for replying. I do want to take up your offer of putting in some of the questions on your blog. The questions I would like you to post are:
        How has having narcissist/psychopath parent/s has affected their career?
        How has it affected their self-esteem/self-confidence?
        How has it affected their personality? (any traits that are due to having psychopath/narcissist parent)
        And how has it affected their ability to trust and have a healthy relationship with others?

        And as for your question, no, I didn’t choose the topic on the basis of personal experience. What made me choose the topic was that while researching for a topic I came across something called the “Dark triad” (which is a combination of a narcissist, psychopath and Machiavellian personality). Although I found it very intriguing there wasn’t much on it so I decided to just do psychopaths and narcissist. The topic was something new, especially narcissism (never knew what it was before this) and the idea that there are psychopaths which might not be serial killers but are still as damaging, that made me want to pick it. And since I take psychology, it was all the more interesting to me.

        Like

        Reply

        • Thank you 🙂

          I have done a post, and it’s here – https://anupturnedsoul.wordpress.com/2017/10/04/what-is-your-experience-of-being-the-child-of-narcissists/ – not sure if this is what you had in mind, but it’s what came out of my mind. Now we wait and see if anyone else, other than me, shares their experience. Children of Narcissists can be reluctant to share because of past experiences of the results of sharing and other reasons.

          Sounds like you have a lot of passion for psychology. I’d love to explore your reasons for choosing to study it, but I might end up giving you the 3rd degree. It’s a fascinating subject, and there are many intriguing characters who helped to shape it from its beginnings. It’s one of those areas that requires a mind to be open to things it might prefer to shut out.

          There is a theory that the ‘corporate’ world is made up mainly in the higher echelons of highly functioning psychopaths/sociopaths, and this theory has been used in documentaries, film (Wall Street, for instance) and a few TV shows (Billions, to name one).

          If you’re researching Narcissism online, you may get lost in all the information and talk about it – it’s been a hot trending topic for a few years. There’s been so much online discussion about it that it has made psychologists look at it from new angles. It used to be all about the Narcissists, now the focus has shifted to victims of Narcissists. It may shift again, and keep shifting until we put all the pieces together and have a clearer view of the complete picture the pieces of the puzzle are making.

          I’m sure you’ll succeed in your chosen path!

          Like

          Reply

          • Thank you so so much. I didn’t expect you to write in such depth, thank you.

            And you are right, I do have a lot of passion for psychology (i personally like abnormal psychology). It is such an interesting subject, it helps me to think things from a lot of different point of views. Its almost as if it opens up another pair of eyes in your mind, which helps you understand others, it’s really amazing.

            I did also come across that fact about the corporate world being made up of highly functioning psychopaths/sociopaths. I was pretty shocked, to be honest.it almost scary how they climb up so high, and no one notices or questions it. And its, even more, frightening that not many people know about these people, everyone knows about the serial killers but not these everyday psychopaths, who to me seem more dangerous.

            thank you once again for your help.

            Like

            Reply

            • You might find following the news story which is now unfolding about Harvey Weinstein to be of interest with regards to highly functioning psychopaths/sociopaths in the business world, as the question of who knew about it and who didn’t, and how did he get away with it for so many years, keeps cropping up. If enough people are behaving in a certain way, it becomes normalised.

              A book which I found to be a great informative read, and which covers the subject on a global scale is – Understanding Power by Noam Chomsky. He tells some chilling tales of the madness of people in power, but also explains how and why this happens, the thinking behind it and the reasons it becomes the accepted norm even if its unacceptable.

              Your questions have revived my writing about Narcissists. I have to admit I was rather bored of hearing myself talk about it, about my story and experience. You’ve given me much food for thought. Thank you.

              Best wishes!

              Like

              Reply

            • Hi Amina,

              Franc Fleming has offered to participate in your Extended Project, but would like to do so privately and confidentially.

              You can chat with them via the comments on the post I wrote in reply to your questions, and where they answered and made their offer. If you do not want their participation, please let them know. If you would like their participation, please give them your email or an email designed for this specific purpose which you don’t mind being displayed publicly.

              Let me know what you would like to do. Don’t leave Franc Fleming hanging.

              Also another blogger who is a child of a Narcissist Mother, and a blogging friend of mine, has offered to answer your questions in a post on their blog, but it may take them some time to write it, and they were wondering what your timeline on your Extended Project was.

              If you could answer them (also via comment on the post) that would be most awesome.

              Thank you 🙂

              Like

              Reply

              • I am so sorry for taking so long to reply. I have been busy with other things and didn’t get to focus on my EPQ. I would like Flanc Fleming to participate,thank you. I can assure them of confidentiality as I won’t be asking for any personal details except their age and that too is optional.
                Also where is your friend going to be blogging the answers to my questions?

                Like

                Reply

                • And as for my timeline, I need to get all of my research together for october/november as I also need to start writing up my eassy.

                  Like

                  Reply

                • No worries, my niece is at university atm, she doesn’t sleep and lives on caffeine fumes. Life tends to just get busier and busier, the trick is to be busy at something which is fun (or make whatever it is fun in some manner).

                  My friend’s blog is here – https://lynettedartycross.com/ – she’s started to write it, but she has also recently started a new and demanding job, so she may not publish it in time for your project.

                  Thank you for responding to Franc Fleming.

                  You’re very gracious, and that is a very valuable trait to have.

                  TY 🙂

                  Like

                  Reply

  45. Hi Ursula, quick question – have you a post about whether a person can take on narc behaviours when they are not a narc? I am looking at my habits & default settings & see I have a tendency to start thinking like a narc & it scares the beejezus out of me. A tag is ok then I can go looking. Thanks

    Like

    Reply

    • Hi Wotzina,

      The question you asked and situation you’re describing is a common experience for those who’ve been in relationships with narcissists. Don’t worry, you’re okay and you’re not alone in this.

      I think I’ve written about it a few times, mainly discussing my own experience of noticing narc behaviour in myself and coming to terms with it, but this post here is the most recent – https://anupturnedsoul.wordpress.com/2017/01/31/can-being-with-a-narcissist-turn-you-into-a-narcissist/ – and least rambling one I can find (I didn’t look too far into my archives because they’re a mess as are my tags) in my blog’s narc category – https://anupturnedsoul.wordpress.com/category/psychology/narcissistic-personality-disorder/.

      It’s worth keeping in mind that your version of “thinking like a narc”, is not really “thinking like a narc”. It’s not how a narc really thinks, it’s how you think a narc thinks. So be gentle with yourself when you catch yourself doing what you think is “thinking like a narc” because it’s not that. It may be similar to how a narc thinks but it’s not the same at all.

      Narcissists are basically humans who got stuck in the narcissistic phase of human development and never moved through it to the later phases of development which would have placed their narcissism in perspective.

      All humans have narcissistic tendencies, these are natural, normal, and often healthy, and therefore we can all think narcissistically. We’re most likely to think narcissistically when our ego is dominant and driving us – this can be positive, as in when we’re pursuing a goal, a dream, an objective, a career path, competing, trying to make our mark in life, get what we want.

      There are times in life when we have to think we’re the best, deserve recognition, and are entitled to something, and it’s okay to get angry (and maybe blame everyone else and hate the world which we think is unfair to us) if we feel we’re not being recognised for being the best and have not received what we’re entitled to – that’s a logical normal human reaction.

      Negative narcissistic thinking tends to kick in when we’ve been hurt, are in pain, are suffering, have experienced a blow to our ego. But even at our worst, during our negative narcissistic thinking, regular humans have the ability to think logically, to self-reflect, and talk themselves down from the ledge of being illogical and irrational. We always level ourselves out, although it can take awhile if the scenario is complicated and we’re very upset and confused by it, because we’ve experienced the stages of human development which come after the narcissistic phase, so we are naturally programmed to move on from being narcissistic.

      It’s also normal to be scared by your “thinking like a narc” because you’re not a narc, and you’ve experienced a real narcissist and don’t ever want to be like that – you’re never going to be like that, even if you wanted to be a narcissist.

      When you catch yourself “thinking like a narc”, past or present, just have a chat with yourself about it, try not to scold yourself for thinking that way instead let yourself investigate what’s going on and why. You’ll find it’s logical and whatever is triggering it needs some attention and understanding to move on from it.

      In the narc-info community taking on the behaviours of a narc when you’ve been exposed to a narcissist is known as ‘getting fleas’. There are a few articles online which you’ll find by searching for – Narcissist fleas.

      Narcissists tend to make us become more narcissistic by association. In some ways it’s a survival mechanism for non-narcs because being less narcissistic around a narc is going to get you more hurt by them, whereas being more narcissistic will protect you to a certain degree from the narcissist. Narcissists tend to trigger our own natural narcissistic tendencies, and since being around a narcissist is predominantly a negative experience, it’s the negative narcissistic tendencies which come to the fore.

      While it is healthy to use what you’ve learned about narcs to check yourself for similar things, be careful not to be too hard on yourself about finding narc traits and behaviours in yourself. You’re not a narc. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

      Take good care of yourself! 🙂

      Like

      Reply

  46. Ursula, Awesome blog. You really nailed it on The Zen of Narcisist: #4 The Female Narcissist/Empath. I have been reading so much about Narcissists since I broke up with my ex-girlfriend. To often people make global statements that are not global at all. When you make a global statement that is true. Also you provided alternative thoughts. So many things you said though that often happen are so correct. Thanks for your knowledge, insight and understanding. I first started reading about Narcissists and it seemed rather that some of the people writing might themselves have been the narcissists. Then I found Sam Vaknin (door opener). And then HG Tudor’s books gave me the guided tour and reassured me that I wasn’t crazy. And now having found your blog, I find that your blog is accurate and it is insightful. You describe in #4 a person like my narcissistic ex. Again reassurance for me. Because as HG Tudor points out in Fuel or Moving Target, There are more narcissists in healthcare then in any other occupation. She aligned me greatly and all the NPDs are sympathetic to my NPD ex. That is important because my ex and I both work in the same hospital. So since our breakup it has been a mess. It is better now than it was. I will be studying and reading for a long time.

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      Sam Vaknin is one of the original bloggers about narcissists, and many who have come after him have used his work as a guideline, so he’s a great starting point. Your ex sounds like a covert narcissist and I think Vaknin was the one who coined the term. Covert narcissists are particularly problematic because their narcissistic traits and behaviour aren’t obvious, in fact they often tend to appear the opposite of narcissistic (and they tend to be thoroughly convinced that they are the least narcissistic person on the planet). Covert narcissists tend to make a big show and tell of their sensitivity to others and their great empathy. Since humans tend to take others at face value, and believe what others say about themselves (because why would someone lie about who they are, right?), it can take a while before we realise that a sensitive, empathic and caring narcissist is none of those things.

      Don’t be hard on yourself for falling for your narcissist, covert narcs in particular can be very attractive and seem to be really genuine good people.

      Once you see through them and their behaviour, it can be frustrating to watch others be fooled by them, especially if the narcissist is using those others to get at you, and is actively running a smear campaign against you. This is more likely to happen if your narcissist can’t make a clean break from you, or if you were the one to ‘discard’ them. If you’re on the receiving end of a smear campaign – be aware that this is showing how vulnerable your narcissist feels (they’re at their worst when they feel threatened by you). The more effort they put into making others see you as the villain, the more they’re afraid of being exposed as not being as perfect as they’d like to be seen as being (covert narcs are desperate to be seen as the hero/the victim-hero). The simplest way to counteract this is to know what they’re saying about you and to not react to it with a need to prove them wrong (trying to prove them wrong is a trap). You are not the narcissist and don’t need to prove who you are to others. If others can’t see you as you are, they’re blinded and you won’t be able to make them see. Ride out the storm – which sounds like what you’ve been doing. Kudos! It takes a huge amount of strength to do that, especially if you have to work in the same environment as your narcissist.

      HG Tudor is a great source of information, he cuts to the chase and is no nonsense. He wrote a very good article about the ‘caring’ type of narcissist – https://narcsite.com/2018/01/12/angels-with-dirty-faces-3/

      This is also a useful resource – https://blogs.psychcentral.com/narcissism-decoded/

      When it comes to recovering from a relationship with a narcissist, reading up on the subject is very helpful. Everything you’re doing is spot on! That saying of ‘knowledge is power’ is very apt. The more you understand about narcissists, the more it helps to put things in perspective – and perspective is vital because it gets very skewed when you’ve been around a narcissist, they tend to turn everything upside down and your mind can feel scrambled by them and their shenanigans.

      There is a lot of information about narcissists online, and there are narcissists and narcissistic people writing about the subject. Who is who can be difficult to tell sometimes as the aftermath of a relationship with a narcissist can make even the least narcissistic person appear narcissistic. Trust your instincts, if something you’re reading strikes you as being off, if you suspect the writer of being a narcissist/narcissistic, then go with your take on it. The important thing is your own self-care, recovery and well-being. If you feel ‘bad about yourself’ after reading something about narcissists, then step away from it. If someone is pushing the idea that something is ‘wrong with you’ for attracting a narcissist – most narcissists tend to be attracted to people who have a lot ‘right’ about them. Narcissists are attracted to successful, intelligent, confident people more often than not. It’s what’s right with you which attracted a narcissist to you, not what’s wrong with you – it’s a brain teaser. What attracted you to the narcissist is who they appeared to be, not who they ended up being in reality – who they really are is not what you signed up for.

      When you get to the point where you just can’t read anymore, are fed up of it, then you’ll know that the self-cure is taking effect. Being bored of narcissists and your particular narcissist is a sign of improved overall health 😉

      Keep doing what you’re doing, trust yourself, and take good care of yourself!

      Like

      Reply

    • Just thought I’d comment on this one too.

      H.G. Tudor exemplifies the grandiose alternate reality very well. I’m not sure whether he intends his taxonomy of narcissistic subtypes to be a joke or not.

      He is accurate and surprisingly honest in describing the dynamics of abuse. He also gives some good advice and fully advocates no contact. Somehow I’m not sure he would have the fortitude to describe how the ‘grey rock’ method works when successfully implemented.

      I was browsing his website trying to find out what if anything he would have to say about the underlying internalized shame of NPD. I found the article entitled “the Devastation of the Illusion,” and I thought ‘Aha! Surely this article will discuss deflated narcissism! This ought to be interesting!’ But it does not. Instead it fairly gloats about how badly victims of narcissists are hurt when they are no longer idealized by the narcissist. By ‘the illusion’ he meant erroneous perceptions of victims of narcissists. Naturally, this bias is pervasive in his writing and reflects the foundational cowardice of the disorder. I found him to be a valuable read mainly for that reason.

      I don’t really have the stomach for the more prolific Vaknin, (and I actually refuse to use his terminology of covert/overt; I prefer to describe the two presentations as grandiose/vulnerable). Both he and Tudor tend to present narcissists as fearsome, intimidating, and in total control; they don’t seem to realize that narcissists really don’t come across that way to most people with normal sensibilities; narcissists actually rely heavily on pathos, and on the forgiveness and acceptance of others for their pathetic constant demands for affirmation, whether their presentation is grandiose or vulnerable. Both men fail to credit that, at least in adult relationships, narcissists can only hurt us because we let them, because we try to love them, and that we often know what’s going on all the while.

      Like

      Reply

      • actually, sorry, disregard my last message. i realize it shows a lot of ignorance; overt or covert is of course accepted terminology in mainstream theory and research, although ‘inverted narcissism’ is not, and i really do have a problem with that one.

        i realize that ignorance and sloppy thinking in combination with presumptuous and critical attitudes suggests that i have more narc tendencies than i would like to admit.

        i guess i got overexcited about being able to talk about something that normally is onerous. and look what came out. scary.

        Like

        Reply

        • here, one last thing. won’t be making unsolicited posts after this. but i think this will not be of disinterest to you.

          —

          3:20 PM 2018-02-20

          Today I woke up with a cold realization after having found myself expressing a pompous, critical, and egregiously ignorant opinion in the comments of a weblog that I greatly admired. The substance of this comment no longer matters, but the abrupt confrontation with my own narcissism matters a great deal.

          In the middle of my misery memoir manuscript, there is the sentence: “Unfortunately, receptivity to such conjectural guilt does not lead to any positive outcome for anyone, but only marks the guilt-prone as susceptible to pedestrian abusive tactics that [my brother] uses in all of his interpersonal relationships.”

          I had to correct this today, because while it is true that I was severely victimized by my brother’s narcissistic abuse, and while validating my victimization is entirely appropriate, victimization is not the whole truth.

          I modified this remark today, which might perhaps create a misleading impression that i had more prior self-awareness than I actually did, [as the manuscript was written five years ago]. The additional clauses, however, are possibly the most subjectively important that I have written in my life.

          The end of the paragraph now reads: “Unfortunately, receptivity to such conjectural guilt does not lead to any positive outcome for anyone, but only marks the guilt-prone as susceptible to pedestrian abusive tactics that [my brother] uses in all of his interpersonal relationships, as well as providing the egregious foundation for the covert narcissistic defenses with which I continue to struggle, and which mostly lack relational manifestations. My own narcissism rarely hurts people other than myself; I am pathologically narcissistic mainly in that my inability to overcome extreme self-splitting has led to a disorganized and aimless life of perceived victimization and latent baseless grandiosity, as a sysiphean divestment of shame. While this problem is deep– in fact, central- I do not believe that I am diagnosable with narcissistic personality disorder, as I lack key chararcteristics.”

          I think that is fair.

          I may seek therapy.

          —

          cheers Urusla, keep up the great work.

          L

          Like

          Reply

          • You’re definitely not a narcissist, the way that you express yourself, particularly the self-reflection and self-questioning (and self-criticism) is not a feature found in narcissists. They’re basically afraid of looking within – you’re not afraid of looking within. Finding narcissistic traits and behaviours in yourself does not = NPD. All humans are narcissistic, it’s normal and natural, and is actually healthy.

            This article gives an overview of healthy narcissism – https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/contemporary-psychoanalysis-in-action/201609/what-is-healthy-narcissism

            Regular human narcissism can become more negative when we’re in pain or suffering, when angry, anxious, feeling hard done by, dealing with the dark side of the human experience and feeling confused by it, afraid, but it always levels itself out because regular humans are not stuck in the narcissistic phase – we have more to us than the narcissism. Those with NPD are stuck in the narcissistic phase and don’t realise that there is a world of experience within beyond that system/coping mechanism as they never moved through the subsequent phases of development.

            I watched the film – Room – last night and it struck me that narcissists are like the child who is stuck in the room, grew up in the room who has never known any other world than that room, and doesn’t know that there is a whole world beyond it. Whereas regular humans are like the child’s mother who knows there is more to the world than the room, even when they are trapped in the room because of circumstances.

            You know that there is more to you than you narcissism, than your victimisation, but you also know that these places within have to be visited and stayed in to understand them and yourself. Within your narcissism in the key to understanding certain aspects of yourself (and of others, such as the narcissists you have encountered). Within your victimisation resides the hero aspect, to heal the wound you have to go through the wound because the healing is inside the wound – they come as a package deal.

            As for your dislike of terms like Overt/Covert – I personally think it’s a good idea to challenge and question the mainstream terminology, it’s part of critical thinking, of thinking for yourself, and shows an independence of thought. You’re not just accepting what others have told you as being the way things are and what they are called, you are listening to their viewpoint and then deciding for yourself if their viewpoint is valid for you. That’s a healthy approach. When figuring out your personal experience of narcissists it is helpful to find your own terminology because your terminology expresses and explains your experience for you. Sometimes someone else’s terminology is helpful and sometimes it’s not, and may even be a hindrance which may block your own progress in recovery.

            I really dislike the term ‘love-bombing’, it is unhelpful for me personally to view that process using that term because mainly I’m dealing with parental narcissistic abuse and ‘love-bombing’ refers mainly to romantic relationships with narcissists. And it’s also not ‘love’ with which narcissists are ‘bombing’ you. So that term doesn’t work for me, however I can see that for other people the term explains their relationship with a narcissist for them and eases their pain and confusion when they apply it to their experience of a narcissist.

            It’s also healthy to review your own likes/dislikes and question your own questioning as this can lead to internal breakthroughs. Asking yourself – Why do I have a problem with that? – can lead to accessing personal information which can elucidate areas where you may have felt at an impasse.

            But you do have to be mindful of not being too hard on yourself – ACoNs in particular have a tendency to be too hard on themselves (narcissist parents train their children to be that way and the conditioning runs deep).

            This is an informative site with regards to being an ACoN, and for other aspects of relationships with narcissists – https://blogs.psychcentral.com/narcissism-decoded/

            Also worth checking out is this blog – https://scott-williams.ca/ – it’s by a therapist who is a bit out there and yet rather down to earth. It’s not about narcissists or narcissism, it’s mainly about being human.

            ‘Ignorance’ is not a word that I would equate with you at all. But I do understand the reflex to use it when referring to yourself when in conflict with yourself over some matter, I call myself an idiot all the time. You come across as being very intelligent, which can be problematic at times as the mind is powerful and often overpowers the other intelligence centers within. As the popular saying goes:

            “The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.” ― Charles Bukowski

            I would much rather that you said what you actually thought than said what you think you’re supposed to be saying, as conversations are more real and interesting that way, and they allow for movement, for growth, for things to go somewhere instead of staying stuck in a conventional cycle. We each have insights to share, and when we share them it increases the ability to perceive. Sometimes insight comes from uncomfortable places, and spontaneous things said in the moment.

            Btw, I don’t think HG Tudor is a narc, I think he may be a child of narcs. Thus he understands the experience of NPD from the inside out, has absorbed it and believes himself to be one (because he’s the scapegoat child who must embody all the evils of the world) but there will be areas he won’t understand because he isn’t a narcissist. If he was a narc he wouldn’t write the way he does, nor would he relate to those who comment on his posts the way that he does (he is incredibly thoughtful to those who comment on his blog in a way that a narc would not be even for self-serving purposes). But that’s just my opinion and I could be very wrong about it.

            A successfully implemented ‘grey rock’ should ideally leave the narcissist not interested in you nor thinking about you at all. The whole point of it is to bore the narcissist to the point where they forget you exist and stop bothering with you. You become the drain on the narcissist’s energy rather than the other way around, thus they eventually decide to avoid you. You leave a dull empty space which they fill with someone or something else. They can’t get anything from you so you’re not useful, you’re a dead end for them. It’s harder to use this tactic on family because of the basics of family dynamics and societal pressure on the meaning of ‘family’.

            Whatever tactic you use on a narcissist is never pretty from the narc’s point of view because they have to restructure it (what you do to them which makes them feel bad about themselves, and look bad in front of others) to make them come out being the good guy/gal, and make you come out as the villain. There are some things which are best left in the ‘unknown’ pile.

            Cut yourself slack and give yourself much deserved kudos! Dealing with narcissists is a mind-F, making sense of it is like being thrown into a labyrinth without a thread to guide you out, and it takes you through some very dark inner places which are ultimately worth knowing about and aren’t as dark as they seem when you’re in them once you know them better.

            It’s worth balancing out your research into narcissism/narcissists with some research into the opposite end of the human experience. Things like this – https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-squeaky-wheel/201503/the-7-habits-truly-genuine-people – can help to put yourself into perspective. You need healthy narcissism to be an individual, it helps to keep the self intact just as much as negative narcissism makes the self dissolve and fall apart.

            Take good care of yourself and please feel free to share your thoughts 🙂

            Like

            Reply

            • You could be right about H.G. Tudor! I have to think about that.

              Thanks for all the links. I will be slowly going through them over the next few days.

              I’ve often worried that my obsession and not infrequent references to pathological narcissism may be oppressive to my friends. Recently I have started to add an addendum to any conversation I have about pathological narcissism, which is of course that positive self-regard, and even the ability to make selfish decisions sometimes, is essential not just for survival, but to experience joy, to appreciate the joy that other people take in themselves, and to respect their needs. normal people should be able to shout from the rooftops ‘i am a narcissist and it is wonderful.’

              re grey rock: i do visit my folks about weekly. my mom is not a flying monkey or a guard dog anymore, and she and i can finally have adult conversations, including about how to deal with the old man. but for years i’ve denied him any information about myself that implies any individuation whatsoever. i only reply formulaically to him, or profess ignorance of whatever he’s talking about, etc. he doesn’t even have my contact information. i actually feel safe and in control most of the time, although the controlling behaviors are still there and sometimes make me angry.

              i actually sometimes take vindictive pleasure from the fact that he often gives a frustrated shrug, does a literal about face and finds something else to do when i give short bland answers to personal questions, where he was hoping for blood.

              yeah, i agree the term ‘love-bombing’ doesn’t sit quite right.

              Thanks for being so supportive of your fans! You really go beyond the call, like the antimatter version of Stillwater in ‘Almost Famous,’ (which the person I’m now courting has made me watch.)

              Take care of yourself, too!

              L

              Like

              Reply

              • No worries 🙂

                re: referring to pathological narcissism while conversing with your friends

                It is a heavy subject, and the information can be challenging to process. Talking about narcissism can also be triggering for people, upsetting their balance and reminding them of things they may want to forget.

                As with any conversation about any subject, if those you’re speaking with aren’t personally connected to a subject, interested in it and able to engage, share their own opinions and stories about it, feel knowledgeable about it, be part of the flow of words and able to have some influence over the direction it takes, then it tends to peter out, fall flat, become a frustrating exercise where you may end up feeling as though you’re a bit of a bore (which may then lead to self-censorship or any one of those other things that turns something you’re interested in into a source of personal struggle and eventually a taboo subject). However if those you’re speaking with are personally interested in the subject and are able to not only be a part of the conversation but feel their words are being heard and are a useful part of the construction of the interaction then the conversation will be satisfying all around for everyone involved.

                Discussing NPD is similar in some ways to discussing religion, politics, and sexual preferences. It is a weighty issue which is complicated and complex, and taps into the part of the psyche which is connected to what is often hidden and dark.

                Sometimes the best conversations are the ones we have with ourselves.

                re: applying techniques to your personal narcissists

                Narcissists move within a limited cycle of behaviour. They repeat the same things over and over ad nauseum ad infinitum. They expect others to fit into their systems, as long as others do exactly as expected all is well (even if it leads to the narc having a tantrum, this can still mean all is well for the narc because they always intended to have that tantrum as they needed the release of internal pressure). If others go way off script, such as in applying the grey rock and not behaving as you normally do with your narc, as they have become used to you reacting and being around them, then the narc is momentarily thrown off course, which terrifies the narc, and their response to terror is to do whatever they need to do to get everything back to the way it was and has always been. They go through their roster of routines, trying to get things back to normal and get them back in control – which includes being in control of you. If they can’t regain control of you and you continue to have something wrong with you (in others words something is wrong with you because you’re not being your usual self with them, and allowing them to manipulate you), then they may write you out of their play because you’ve become an ‘unknown’ factor which is dangerous.

                Your dad will continue to be who he has always been, and will continue to do what he has always done. That’s what narcs do, they do not change just because you’ve changed the dynamic you have with them – however you alter how you experience them and how they affect you. It takes awhile for you to adjust to it, and you may find yourself prompted to revert (be patient with yourself). You do gain a certain control which does break the control the narc has over you – but the narc, esp. a family/parental one, will continue to attempt to establish their dominance over you and get you to return to ‘normal’. Provoking you will be a major component of getting you back to normal. Grey rock can be very provocative for a narc, which means they’ll ramp up their provocation tactics on you until they break through your impassive exterior. Depends on the narc, but most narcs need their victims to react emotionally ‘out of control’, it’s part of your scripted role for them. If you change how you react by not reacting, it confuses them and the role they have for you in their story. They do not like change to their routines at all.

                Your impassiveness with your dad will affect your relationship with your mom – you may find that it takes a lot of pressure off of her and she can relax more when she is with you (you changing your dynamic with him, will change your dynamic with her. Alternatively it could place more pressure on her, because your dad will put more pressure upon her – but it sounds like this is not the case for you and your mom.

                If your dad is a cerebral narc, you may find his respect for you increases once he gets used to your new dynamic, with you holding a ‘special’ position for him of the ‘no longer to be messed with’ kind. He will still mess with you, but he will expect you to see through it and give him a ‘I see what you’re doing’ knowing look. He will continue to test your impassive stance to see how strong it is – narcs tend to believe everyone around them are as they are, and thus faking it, so they test people to see what is real and what is fake, but they never really understand the findings they get from their tests when the result is ‘real’. They just don’t get what being real is all about.

                Keep doing what you’re doing and being yourself – your self is a valuable treasure!

                ps. don’t worry about replying to my comments, blog-conversations don’t follow the same rules as regular conversations. You comment when you want to.

                Like

                Reply

  47. Hi, Ursula. I came across your blog when searching for answers regarding the last relationship that I had with someone whom I think is both borderline and pathologically narcissistic. (I’ve actually liked most people with borderline that I’ve met, but maybe this is because i don’t get too close to them –anymore.)

    Confronting one’s own narcissistic tendencies is an unavoidable result of entering relationships with highly narcissistic people, and I think you have some great things to say on that subject in itself. Of course, as an ACoN myself I struggle with this all the time regardless.

    In particular I found your post ‘When Narcissists Claim to be Victims of Narcissists’ to be particularly thoughtful, but it is your flippant and highly entertaining post on female narcissists that made me want to send you a note. Until this fall, all the narcissists in my life have been men, and I didn’t know narcissism could assume the guise of empathetic sensitivity, or that I would fail to detect it even when blatantly presented as a higher degree of empathy than anyone else had.

    I’d actually like to share my experiences with you, as your voluminous and helpful replies to others suggest that you might have insights that I would value. However, the account of the relationship this fall, for example, is about 20,000 words, and I realize it is an imposition to ask you to review it. Nevertheless, I could email it to you if you like. I’m still editing bits.

    Thanks for all the work you’ve done.

    L

    Like

    Reply

    • Hi, Leonard, thank you very much for sharing 🙂

      Thank you for asking but I don’t do email with my blog (mainly because I suck at email). My apologies. I realise not everyone is comfortable sharing their personal story on a public blog.

      I think writing out your story is an excellent idea. Writing posts for my blog about my own story has helped me sort my own mess out (it’s still a mess but I can navigate it now in a small dinghy rather than drowning in it). There’s something about putting the story down in writing which brings things into perspective – and perspective is a valuable thing which often gets lost when we get involved with a narcissist/narcissistic person. When writing and re-reading what you’ve written pay attention to the parts which stand out for you – why does it stand out for you. Notice where you get stuck or confused – why are you stuck or confused by that part? And pay particular attention to the parts you edit – why are you editing those parts? What are you editing out or in?

      View the writing process as a conversation with yourself – with the you now and the you then, and the you in between. One of the most important aspects of a relationship with a narcissist/narcissistic person or anyone who has been problematic for us in a relationship is that they spur us to get to know ourselves better, to improve our relationship with ourselves (which is the foundation and our starting point for our relationship with others).

      Things to keep in mind:

      1. the answers you’re seeking are most likely ones you already have (but may not know that you have), and what you’re really looking for is something which will trigger the inner answers to pop out from where you keep them inside.

      If you’ve spent a long time around a narcissist or anyone who is narcissistic you may have pushed your inner knowing into a box and locked it away because it’s easier to be around a narcissist/narcissistic person if you’ve disabled your own intelligence. Being intelligent around a narcissist is a trigger for them, tantrums/emotional outbursts ensue with all the added extras. Those tantrums/emotional outbursts tend to make us want to avoid them, stop them from happening and since we can’t control the other person we tend to increase self-control which can lead to disabling ourselves to stop them from being triggered by us (the circle gets smaller and smaller until self-control becomes a stranglehold).

      2. be careful of black and white, right and wrong, villain and hero, thinking. While this type of thinking can be useful when trying to sort out a problematic issue, it can also end up getting you tied up in knots of all sorts.

      If you’ve been in a relationship with a narcissist/narcissistic person there will be many times when you’ll have behaved in ways which may leave you feeling badly about yourself. I was recently reading a thread on the Reddit LifeAfterNarcissism forum wherein someone mentioned something known as ‘reactive abuse’ – where you end up acting in an abusive manner because someone is abusing you. Around a narcissist we may end up reacting narcissisticallly, and in retrospect we may end up becoming confused about how to view ourselves because of the way we behaved. We know they were bad but what about us, we’ve been bad too – what does this mean about us? This is when people who aren’t narcissists end up wondering if perhaps they’re the narcissist, and if everything is their fault.

      Recovering from a relationship with a narcissist/narcissistic person requires working with grey areas, and understanding that being human can be a very messy experience where there is no clearly defined right/wrong.

      3. be gentle with yourself – if a friend of yours had been through what you’ve been through what would you advise them to do? Do that for yourself. Take the time you need to figure things out, and don’t expect yourself to have all the answers or to find them elsewhere.

      When it comes to relationships with narcissists/narcissistic people there will always be loose ends which will never be tied up neatly. While you can make sense of a lot of what happened between you and them, there will be things which may never make sense.

      If you would like to ask me any questions or share a part of your story, please feel free to do so, but please remember that my answers will be just my take on things. I am me and you are you, and I may not understand you or your situation. Having said that if I get it monumentally wrong – at least you’ll know that’s monumentally wrong and that can be helpful when it comes to sorting through the narcissistic Gordian Knot (knowing what isn’t right is as helpful as knowing what is right sometimes – or at least that’s the path I’ve been riding).

      You come across as being a truly genuine and good person – don’t torture yourself for it (although self-torture does tend to come with the package). Narcissists/narcissistic people will find that very attractive, and will want to be close to you in the hopes that it will rub off on them, and perhaps become theirs. They’ll never understand how you are the way that you are and it will drive them nuts.

      Don’t worry about not having recognised the Covert type of narcissist – they’re very difficult to recognise (very different from the Overt type of narcissist), partly because they’re convinced that they are who they’re pretending to be and their belief transfers to you (most humans tend to take people at face value and believe their stories about themselves – as why would someone lie about who they are?). What tends to give them away for me is that they’re exhausting to be around. Their ‘niceness’ is draining rather than uplifting, and when they’re being ’empathic’ it’s always negative – they never seem to pick up any positive vibes from you because anything positive becomes something coming from them, but anything negative is never theirs it’s always someone else’s – but it can take ages to pick up on this, especially if you aren’t exposed to them 24/7. They often start off the relationship by complimenting you a lot, so it takes awhile to notice when the compliments begin to have barbs, and when the criticism starts to become more dominant.

      Cut yourself lots of slack, and remember you’re human. It’s icky to be human… 😉

      Like

      Reply

    • … also, was just reflecting on your blog a bit in my journal tonight. It was highly complimentary so I thought I’d also post that here.

      …

      the google books preview of Daniel Shaw’s ‘Traumatic Narcissism’ stunned me. i never imagined such perspective or clarity in a work about narcissism. i don’t know if i shall read the entire work. i am too lazy.

      i am also floored by the weblog at anupturnedsoul.wordpress.com, as i read more of it. the writer has mastered her subject matter, though not academically, and can take her reflections on narcissism in useful directions in a way that I have yet failed to do despite equally voluminous writing about my personal experience of familial narcissism. she conveys in detail, and with her very own brand of analytical rigor, something that i am ill suited to attempt: how narcissistic abuse feels to victims who do not become schizoid and thus who possess better access to their convoluted emotional realities. her narcissists were much more privileged and established in society than mine were; poverty of mental experience might tend to be commensurable to the level of material poverty where narcissists and their families are concerned, since narcissists are fundamentally superficial and outward-looking. she also talks a fair bit about the unavoidable unbelief and suspicion encountered by people who talk about narcissistic parents, which is also valuable material for consideration, perhaps more so for her generation because awareness of pathological narcissism is burgeoning in contemporary culture. especially since they elected that idiot in the States. Oh well.

      …

      anyhoo, i’m anticipating the next installment of Narcie. she seems almost… lovable. which perplexes me.

      Cheers,
      L

      Like

      Reply

      • Oh, I also see that you’ve replied. Thanks for giving the subject some consideration.

        Your predictions are pretty good in the last paragraph, regarding what to expect from covert narcisism; that’s pretty much what happened. I did cut her a lot of slack because of her high medical burden and obvious borderline tendencies, but the constant claim of empathy was really something I wanted to hear, and I was really slow to recognize that what she called empathy was in fact its opposite.

        Regarding reactive abuse, I feel narcissistic rage now, (actually more or less abated at this point), but didn’t until several weeks post-discard. It’s hard not to split the object with such feelings, but the attempt to recount facts as neutrally as possible helps to draw more moderate and realistic conclusions.

        I admit you also made a good observation about editing things in or out. The discard phase was really quite humiliating, and in truth I required several revisions of my account before i could edit in an uncomfortably non-abstract version of events during that time.

        This relationship was relatively transient but I put a great deal of energy and hope into it for a few months; recovery will be a breeze compared to the ACoN business. But I like to understand, so I dwell. It’s not too unhealthy, I think.

        Anyway, as I’ve been saying, I love your writing. As far as I’m concerned, “Initiate’s Disease” should be in the DSM.

        (Kidding, I know you don’t like the DSM.)

        Thanks again,
        L

        Like

        Reply

        • I would hazard a guess that the rage you’re feeling is less ‘narcissistic rage’ which tends to be illogical and triggered by what appears to be random things often of little consequence and is often seemingly out of context (my mother once exploded over a pair of missing teaspoons – that rage episode ended with her finding out that those teaspoons never existed). What you’ve described sounds like a logical kind of anger which is a natural result of the confusion which is always part of a relationship with a narcissist (because they do not make sense in the conventional manner). Within the context of the scenario it makes perfect sense to be rageful.

          Rage in this kind of scenario is normal and natural, and tends to be anger in its protective form. It does abate once it is allowed to express itself, inform you of what it is roused by, and is acknowledged by its owner.

          It is humiliating to be discarded, and humiliation can trigger anger. The way narcissists do the discard tends to provoke the feeling of humiliation. In some ways the humiliation isn’t yours but hers, but narcissists can’t feel those kinds of feelings, it terrifies them, so it gets passed on to others, and they pass it on by doing to you what they’re afraid of having done to them. Much of their behaviour is a reaction to this wall of fears they have.

          Humiliation tends to make us feel foolish, stupid, raw, embarrassed, shameful, worthless, all of which feel yucky, and we tend to review the series of events which led up to it focusing on every mistake we made, and often berating ourselves for making those mistakes (hindsight can be a total a-hole). You look at all the things you did in the relationship and hate yourself for it. BUT had you been in a relationship with not-a-narcissist the things you did would have been appreciated, and the story would have played out differently and would most likely not have ended up in discard and humiliation.

          Frankly the way you’re feeling is proof positive (even if it feels negative) that your ex is not in the least bit empathic – would an empathic person use the discard to end a relationship? No. Not unless it was a last resort and even then they’d probably find a more considerate approach which left both of you with your personal power intact. But a narcissist can’t do that, no matter how wonderful they try to be it’s always going to fall apart because it’s a construct of the mind rather than a natural disposition.

          Investing yourself, your energy, in the relationship is not a mistake. That’s what a real relationship is about and requires. The problem is that the narcissist doesn’t know how to respond other than to take, and keep taking until they can’t take anymore or until you ask for something in return – and then they’re out of there.

          The person who really needs slack cut in this is you. You didn’t do anything wrong, you were just with someone who wasn’t right for you. She seemed right because narcissists are good at seeming to be the right person, and for awhile they’ll feel oh so right, but then you get to that threshold where you want to shift into a more serious level of relating and the narcissist can’t cope (but they can’t face that kind of truth, so the fault has to be yours and not theirs).

          One of the things which comes out of relationships with narcissists is a heightened sense of self-understanding, and also the ability to appreciate it when you meet people who aren’t narcs. There’s a flip side to everything.

          Like

          Reply

      • Thank you 🙂

        Narcie is on hiatus for a bit (as am I), but will be back soon. It’s been intriguing putting the episodes together.

        I find it very interesting that DT got elected at a time when awareness of narcissism is so prevalent. He sort of marks a climatic point in society – everything has to come out into the open and be fully seen in all its gory and understood before we can move on from it. In some ways he embodies Jung’s Medicine Man archetype. We the people have to see how we are society, society reflects us it isn’t just some thing separate from us, and how we play a part in the rise to power of people who really shouldn’t be wielding that kind of power. The MeToo movement is also a part of this exposure of human darkness, and abuses of power. It has to come out into the open and we have to understand it both on the big scale and on the smaller scale. The smaller scale is always harder to fathom because that’s when it’s personal, and we’re programmed to react defensively to that which is personal.

        We’re definitely living in interesting times.

        I do think you’ve hit on a good point about how material wealth affects an ACoN’s experience. I became cynical from an early age, and pushed more inside of myself, exploring the inside world more than the outside world. On the outside everything had been done, those around me had done it all and knew it all, and it all sucked. People were still deeply miserable in spite of having it all. So the answer must lie within because those around me didn’t go inside – that was the unexplored territory (it was also a pretty good hiding place to keep the self intact).

        What I do on my blog is basically stream of consciousness – share it all, see what comes out of it. I’m fairly crazy… but that works better for me than trying to pretend that I’m not like that (I’ve tried doing that).

        The most important thing you can do for yourself is just talk with yourself like a friend to a friend – and listen to what you’re saying 🙂

        Like

        Reply

        • So, the boy in ‘the Matrix’ was right. There really was no spoon.

          My understanding is that narcissistic rage is a response some threat to the illusion of omnipotence, and is focused on revenge (as well as the underlying indelible self-loathing); I thought that my response to humiliation qualified, but I could be wrong. As you may have gathered from my confused (and presumptous) thinking in other posts, I don’t know my subject matter as well as I probably should.

          I guess judging from my experience with other narcissists, I’d have to agree that NR does tend to seem arbitrary and illogical. For instance, the woman I was just with went apoplectic over a slip of paper towel I had left on the floor of the grocery store on the previous day, saying ‘I despise wasters, smokers, litterers, because I am trying to make the world a better place,’ red-faced and more angrily than I’d ever seen her. I suppose it was triggered by the fact that her own hypercriticality was gradually wearing down my sympathy and ability to engage unguardedly with her, hence she had a premonition that she would be rejected and at this stage was looking very hard for reasons to reject me first. Which she did. I offered no character criticism of her at all during the relationship, and even very little in the way of constructive criticism, (which went over badly but did not capsize the boat). She went ‘no contact’ on me the first time I had a serious disagreement with her, about whether my motivations were really as dishonest as she was claiming.

          One of the oddest instances of NR was with my brother though, during the phase when I was becoming aware for the first time of how narcissistic he actually was, and he was aware that I was looking at him differently and developing new and serious resevations about him, although at this stage I hadn’t actually formulated much definite criticism of him. Well, one day, a mutual friend was visiting and asked me how I was. I said quite matter-of-factly ‘I don’t know. I’m pretty depressed.’ In response, my brother wheeled around at the other end of the room and shouted “You think I don’t suffer!? You think I won’t kill myself if I resemble the old man!?”

          In a different context, he might actually succesfully persuaded me that I was the one persecuting him, (and subsequently, I actually did). But in the immediate context, his explosive anger didn’t actually work to produce guilt in me, because I could only see that I was being chastised by a self-absorbed idiot for being depressed, and merely ticked off a mental checkbox. (Actually he isn’t an idiot. His IQ as a kid was over 160.)

          Regarding relative privilege and suffering: my brother and I both used to be callous towards the suffering of the privileged. This was based on envy, not, as we both thought, on social justice. No longer. Ironically, my brother has become the only educated, cultured, middle class individual among the men in our family.

          Thanks for saying that investing onself in a relationship is not a mistake.

          What a toxic mess between MeToo and Trump. His misogyny spawned MeToo, and he seems to be pretty much the only person that the movement can’t reach. Hence, it murders some of its friends instead, because they can be reached. And DT laughs. Good God.

          I am sorry that Narcie is indisposed. Please convey to her that the earth would please like to resume rotating, as soon as she feels better.

          Like

          Reply

          • I would say that your understanding of the subject of narcissism in its pathological manifestation is very good. You have first hand living experience of people who are narcissists, so your knowledge goes beyond the intellectual grasp of it. When it comes to the subject of narcissists intellectual knowledge, while helpful in putting things into a structured format, isn’t as useful as the lived experience which imparts visceral knowledge.

            Your observations of your brother and his behaviour shows that you have great visceral knowledge of narcissists. It can be difficult to put that kind of knowledge into words.

            Non-narcissists can experience rage episodes similar to narcissistic rage, rage is a human response, the litmus test is whether you can logically explain the rage or not to others and to yourself. In other words is it a logical response, and would others understand it if you explained what led up to it?

            It is logical to get angry when you’ve been hurt, and to feel rage when you are aware that someone has treated you with disrespect, and done it in a deliberate manner, and is not allowing you to have your say, to defend yourself.

            Narcissists cut you off and that’s it – your side of the story is silenced, while their side of the story gets spread around like wildfire. The fact that she treated you as though you were the narcissist would have been infuriating. It’s one of the side effects of widespread social awareness of NPD, the narcissists have access to the info too and they’re the ones most likely to use it indiscriminately. A narcissist will accuse someone of being a narcissist at the drop of a hat if it absolves them of any onus, and makes them feel better about themselves. If they treat someone badly and that person responds to the treatment, a narcissist can explain it all away by accusing that person of being a narcissist.

            When it comes to being discarded by a narcissist most people feel humiliation one way or another, and rage is a logical response to humiliation. Anger is a common shared feeling of victims of narcissists. Much of what you’ll find online written by victims of narcissists is bubbling with rage and fury at their narcissist.

            Another factor which separates your rage from narcissistic rage is the way you are feeling about it in retrospect. The rage you felt bothers you, it has made you question yourself, it has led you to view it as narcissistic. A narcissist tends to view others as narcissistic, they rarely if ever consider themselves to have narcissistic traits and behaviours. Narcissists tend to feel much better after a tantrum, the stress which was building up inside of them has been released and passed onto someone else leaving them almost euphoric. They feel justified in having exploded with rage (especially if it got them what they wanted), none of it was their fault (someone else made them angry and their rage is that someone else’s fault), and they often don’t even think about it afterwards. It happened and now it’s over, they’re over it and everyone else has to forget about it. And they’re on to the next drama.

            What you described about the scene your ex had about the slip of paper towel – that’s NR. Basically if it makes you gasp and stretch your eyes, your mind boggles and is confused, and you feel as though you’re in an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm or Seinfeld, and there is no logic to what’s occurring, then there be a narcissist in full on narc mode messing with the reality around you.

            Trust what you know – what your insides know.

            Like

            Reply

  48. Thank you for this website. I just came across it tonight and it is the breath of fresh air- and the reality check I needed. I’ve taken the last few months to literally drop off the face of the Earth and regroup after finally standing up for myself with my N parents and my hostile siblings who listen to the lies and don’t care as long as they aren’t the current target. It’s exhausting. I’m in my forties and feel like I should have figured this out sooner but it hard to see problems while you are swimming in them and everyone tells you what a good swimmer you are.

    My mother had broken her hip last year and I felt compelled to fly across the country to… well we all know I was giving into guilt and old patterns. As I was trying to twist my life and make arrangements to get to my mother, my husband said to me out of frustration “Why are you trying to spend time with people who don’t want you? None of those people want you.” It was hard to hear that out loud. But it was true. He also said something else hurtful because it was true- “When people tell you how they feel, you need to listen to them and take them at their word.” He has watched these people (my family) tear me apart for the last three years over repeated nonsense and he was completely over their manipulations. My husband is a Godsend and a wonderful man.

    I’ve since realized that I don’t take people at their word. I think it’s my job to fix things and make things better- just not for myself. I have this ridiculous outlook on life that I can overcome things that I just shouldn’t bother with. It keeps me from doing things with my life that I should be doing- things I want to do. I’m learning though. What I really need is to be healthy and sound so that I can be a help to others. Like putting my oxygen mask on first so I can then help the other passengers on the crazy plane, perhaps. That is if there really is a way to help a problem that can’t actually be fixed.

    I think it’s more about just surviving and learning how to let go while all the people around you seem to talk about their families like they are wonderful things to be pulled closer and cherished. Yes, we are alone. True close family connections don’t exist for us unless we, as children of narcissists who are trying to break free, are contemplating suicide of our souls. I did consider that more times than I’d care to admit. Could I just give in and behave? Wouldn’t my life be easier that way? The answer is always “no”- always.

    I’m starting to finally believe that I have a value outside of the needs of the narcissists in my life. I’ve purged several narcissists I’ve collected as friends once a I realized that they too, were never interested in my value. They were interested in my value to them. I am left with a small group of friends who mean the world to me and I would probably run into a burning building for them. Is that then family? I am not sure but they tell me we are and it makes me happy to think about it that way.

    And in case anyone reading this was wondering (probably not if you are here reading this- you already know) my mother had excellent care and after telling me she thought it best for me to not come [because I might mess up her recovery party she was basking in] -she’s fine now. She had round the clock nurses, in-home PT and a parade of neighbors and friends stopping by for weeks. She had a party to celebrate her recovery. She didn’t need or want me to ruin that. Taking her at her word, I didn’t go. It’s one of the hardest things I’ve ever done but she’s fine and she didn’t even care that I never came to see her because of her hip. They never really do care.

    Like

    Reply

    • Thank you for sharing 🙂

      Things also fell into place for me too when I reached my 40’s. I think age makes a big difference to how we perceive things, and midlife is a time when we truly come into our own, and no longer feel the need to toe the line. Within the context of family dynamics, I think that when we hit midlife we finally view ourselves as the adults that we are and we want to be related to and respected as adults and equals and no longer as children who need to be told who to be and what to say and do for our parents/family.

      This bit – “it’s hard to see problems while you are swimming in them and everyone tells you what a good swimmer you are.” – is a brilliant observation, and very true.

      A narcissistic family is similar in many ways to a cult, and it can be very difficult to break free. Just when you think you’re out, they pull you back in. It takes a lot of strength, courage and determination to get out and stay out.

      It helps enormously to have someone on your side who can see through all the veils of illusion, and who has your back and is bold enough to tell it like it is – like your husband. He took a big risk to say what he did, because we’re trained to protect our narcissist family even if it destroys us and destroys those who genuinely love us – we’re supposed to self-destruct and sacrifice ourselves for the narcissists. He obviously loves you deeply and could no longer watch you being hurt and killing yourself for your family. And you took a big risk too in standing up for yourself and freeing yourself from the narc family cult. You’re an amazing couple of people! Kudos!

      Narcissists don’t care because they can’t care, they couldn’t care even if they tried to and wanted to, because they don’t have the inner foundations to give caring to others. They don’t know what genuine caring is. Their parameters for caring are based on things they’ve been told by society, things they’ve read in books, seen in films, rather than on an inner guide of feeling caring and having the natural impulse to care. Which is why they’re good at appearing to care, it’s a performance for others like a film, they know what caring should look like from the outside, they know how to make speeches about caring – they don’t know how it is supposed to feel on the inside, and how it really works.

      For them it’s all about getting caring from others for themselves, but nothing you do, say, can ever make them feel that you care for them, they need more and more from you, and it’s never enough to fill this empty bottomless pit of need inside of them. Until that pit is filled, they can’t care for anyone else. You could have removed your own hip and given it to your mother and she would have still complained that you didn’t do anything for her, that you didn’t care about her. It doesn’t matter how much proof you have that you care for her – she’ll always find proof that you don’t love her enough, because a narcissist is always focused on what’s missing, what they think they don’t have, what they want, what they need, but nothing is ever enough.

      Focus your energy where it is appreciated, and let that guide you and heal you. Care for yourself, care for people like your husband who genuinely care for you and love you as you are, and make you feel good about sharing yourself with them. Give yourself plenty of time and space to figure things out in a way which is supportive of you. Real ‘family’ begins with your relationship with yourself, and radiates from there. Value yourself, you’re worthy and worth it!

      And yes, those who are there for you, who care for you, who love you as you are (not as they need you to be for them), with whom you feel comfortable being yourself as you are – they’re real family. The family we’re born into may be very different from the family which we make for ourselves later on, and may or may not include the people who make up our born-into-family. Narcissists are never truly ‘family’ because you can’t ever really connect with them intimately – it’s not you, it’s them.

      Take good care of yourself!

      Like

      Reply

  49. hi Ursula, i just started posting on OpenDiary, here https://www.opendiary.com/m/author/notapplicable/

    incidentally i alluded to your blog in the second entry.

    they’re friends only, not public postings, so you’d have to make an account and send a friends request, (which they won’t charge you for).

    OD can be such a heavy site… the things people post sometimes are overwhelming. my crap is low to middling by comparison.

    i still anticipate that you may at some point have time and inclination to post more.

    Like

    Reply

    • Hi Leonard 🙂

      One of the benefits of the social media side of the internet is that we get to find out what goes on inside the minds, hearts and lives of people. It puts things into perspective, shows us that other people don’t have it all sorted out, easy, and those other myths we sometimes believe when we’re caught up in the dramas in our own life and view ourselves as a mess compared to everyone else. Basically all humans are a mess inside even when the outside looks neat and tidy. There’s a poetry to the human mess, a deep beauty to the twisted tales and strange stories which we live and have.

      Pay attention to the stories of others on OD which catch your attention – sometimes the stories of others help us figure out our own story, as it can be easier to see the patterns and themes in someone else’s tale than it can be to see them in our own. Whatever stands out in another person’s world shared may be something within our own too. Every now and then I come across someone sharing their story and have one of those double-takes where it sounds as though they’re me and have lived my life. It’s particularly interesting when they took a road I didn’t take, but wondered about what would have happened if I’d taken it instead of going the way that I went.

      If there’s something you’d like for me to post about, just let me know what it is.

      Like

      Reply

  50. Hi Ursula,

    I was hoping I’d find a way to reconnect with you and was scrolling down many artciles but all the comment sections that I found were already closed. So am chuffed I’ve finally come to senses to look here lol. So obvious. I wrote a comment under one of your articles about narcissists accusing other narcissists of being a narcissist. Your response was very kind but mostly very understanding and helpful. I find me talking about my experiences with narcisstic partners quite difficult, mainly because it’s chaotic to me sometimes and also because quite a lot of people brush it off and it makes me feel worse. It’s a very touchy subject atm as I’m trying to rebuild my life from scratch, and it’s scary. I posted that comment about a few months ago. When I read your reply I cried for hours. What really hit me was when you said that I could cut myself some slack for missing my abusive narcisstic ex. I’d never heard that before from any of my friends or family as most of them judged me for ending up in such horrid relationships. I felt very isolated. And then I read that and something inside of me burst. I was sobing and I couldn’t stop. I wanted to reply but had nothing to say at the time, my head was full of shit. Then I went away to reconnect with my ex partner from years ago whom I thought was a cool guy (we didn’t date long the first time). To my horror he turned out to be a narcissist too (not all my partners were narcissits, it seems though that I hit that road at some point and can’t get off it for some reason). It wasn’t as bad this time, I guess I did learn something from my previous failures but made me hopeless that yet again I managed to find myself in this situation again. I got out quick enough. I think. Now I’ve given up dating for some time. I need to work on myself and I need some proper space in my head to do it effectively. Am practicing healthy selfishness, please wish me luck lol. I find your blog very useful and informative and most of all it makes me feel like I’m not alone in this hell of madness. I hated myself (and still do) for letting it happen to me. I was ill and vulnerable when I met my first narc and I always tried to blame it on that but to no avail. I still hover over myself and everything that I lost because of it and everything that I became as a result of it. It’s really hard for me not to think what if..what if I never met him, what my life would be. And it hurts. I’m an empath, my emotions can heal or kill, myself or others and at the moment they’re eating me away. I don’t know how to stop this crazy flow. It’s as if someone put me in a completely different world for some time and then brought me back and I can’t find my way around it anymore. I feel it’s going to be tough but I’ll try anyway. Hope you continue posting your articles, it’s my sacred place now.

    Lots of love

    Anna

    Like

    Reply

    • Hi Anna, thank you for sharing 🙂

      What comes across the most in your story and the way that you express yourself is your inner strength, courage and resilience. You have an enormous reserve of personal power. Give yourself plenty of kudos for that. When you’re reminding yourself of mistakes you think you’ve made, don’t forget to point out to yourself all the things you’ve done right, and done well, and give yourself credit for surviving and thriving under very difficult circumstances.

      Rebuilding your life from scratch will be tough and painful at times, especially as you work through your wounds to find the healing within them, but it will also bring many benefits and blessings. You’re going to discover many wonderful things about yourself as you work through your story and figure out the reasons for the path you’ve taken in life, which will enable you to be proud of yourself, and see yourself in new ways. You’re in a good place now, even if it feels scary and confusing, and as though you’re adrift in a strange ocean. You’re caring for the most important person and relationship in your life – which is you and your relationship with yourself.

      The ‘What If’ type of thinking can be adapted so that instead of torturing yourself with it, you can use it to inspire yourself. What if you hadn’t seen the narcissists in your life as narcissists? What if you hadn’t gotten yourself out of those relationships? What if you didn’t see things as clearly as you see them now? What if you were still stuck in those relationships? It took great personal strength and courage to look at reality, accept the truth of it, and get yourself out of those relationships, dealing with all of the fallout on your own. What if you’d believed all of the lies other people have told about you? What if you’d allowed others to tell you who you were, what you’ve done and what you should be doing? What if instead of taking a leap of faith in yourself and your ability to start from scratch and rebuild a better life for yourself, you’d decided to stay with your narcissist?

      Starting from scratch and rebuilding your life means you get to choose how to shape your life and yourself – you have the power and the freedom to choose what happens next, and you have a wealth of experience in knowing what you don’t want to do, what you don’t want for yourself, and where you don’t want to go.

      What if the crazy flow is actually taking you to a new land where you get to decide what happens next?

      What if those emotions eating away are nourishing themselves on the old so that the new can grow from it?

      In some ways the narcissists in our life push us to really get to know ourselves. Give yourself all the time you need to get to know yourself, warts and all… it is a very liberating experience.

      Best wishes on the journey ahead… you’re going to be fine as the captain of your ship (that’s you) is an amazing guide!

      Like

      Reply

Leave a reply to Amina Cancel reply

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.