Who is the Narcissist? – This is a rant

Biting your tongue

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I get very passionate about certain things and the passion takes over. One of the things which sets my passion off is when victims of Narcissists victimise other victims of Narcissists not intentionally but through misunderstanding. Which in some ways makes it worse. It’s that road to hell paved with good intentions.

If I hear one more victim of a Narcissist state that those with NPD are born evil… I’ve seriously considered deleting my blogs and going offline permanently. That’s my passion getting in a tizzy and demanding I act. I feel myself becoming an Activist and that’s a road to hell too. I wrote about NPD because it was part of my personal experience and self-therapy. I might stop writing about it entirely.

What stirs my passion is seeing victims of Narcissists looking for a formula outside of themselves. Want to know why you were in a relationship with a Narcissist? Look within! Looking within will show you good and bad, the good will inspire you and heal you, so will the bad, but you have to know how to approach the bad so you don’t use it to hurt yourself and others. It’s not the kind of bad you may fear it is, it’s misunderstood.

Fact: Narcissists always blame their victims for what the Narcissist does to them and accuses their victim of being the victimiser – thus the Narcissist.

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Narcissism 101

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Fact: Narcissists also think they’re victims of Narcissists, and also write about their relationship with a Narcissist and post it publicly.

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playing the victim

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Question: Who is the real Narcissist?

Doesn’t almost every victim of a Narcissist wonder if they are the Narcissist? Especially if the Narcissist convinces them that the problem is them.

Question: So the Narcissist who writes about being the victim of a Narcissist, are they the victim of a real Narcissist or are they doing what everyone who has ever been in a relationship with a Narcissist knows they do – which is blame the victim?

Not only blame the victim, but do it in a way that everyone who hears the story and gets sucked into the drama takes their side and also blames the victim. Worse than that they help the Narcissist victimise the victim by giving the Narcissist support and encouragement and admiration for being so strong and brave and thus feeding the Narcissist the precious Narcissistic Supply which fuels their abuse of their victim and empowers them and enables them to victimise an entire willing audience. And disseminates erroneous information which helps other Narcissists justify their abuse of their victim and continue to play the victim of their victim.

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manipulator

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My mind boggles!!! Less at the typical paradox which Narcissists create but at the unwillingness to really see what is going on of those who are not Narcissists. It’s as though the lies Narcissists tell are the truth people want to hear, thus the truth becomes a lie to be buried under lies disguised as truth.

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collective delusion

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For those of us who are children of Narcissists that hits home like a scalpel slicing our hearts out. Because society did that to us those times we tried to speak out about the abuse we suffered in silence as children, we wanted help and what we received was unhelpful, and later as adults who knew that speaking out was pointless because everyone believes the Narcissist’s version of reality, because they’re so charming, know how to appear in a way which pleases and flatters people.

And now there are people disseminating the ‘fact’ that if you’re a child of Narcissists you’re genetically predisposed to having NPD. You’re born bad/evil. And the disseminators of this ‘fact’ are doing so for the good of all those who like them have suffered in a relationship with a Narcissist. They’ve found the magic formula which creates Narcissists! And they don’t ask who exactly sold them the magic formula – was it a Narcissist perhaps who had ‘imperfect’ ‘defective’ offspring, a child who challenged their superiority, their control and censorship, who did not make them look good? Was it a Narcissist doing what Narcissists do?

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two sides of the story

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And once again the child of the Narcissist is driven into a prison of silence because the Narcissist has convinced society to help them do it. They’re the hero and expert. The believed and admired one. We’re the problem that needs to be shamed, shunned and annihilated, forced to pretend to be happy or be punished for it.

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Narcissist parent

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I’m pissed off, can you tell?

But because I don’t have NPD – oh, wait, I wouldn’t know if I had it, would I… why don’t we ask my Narcissist parents what they think, I’m sure they are experts on such things –  I’m not going to do what a Narcissist would do when they’re pissed off, now am I – I, child of two Narcissists, genetically predisposed to be a bad seed – I’m thinking of erasing myself, self-destructing and wiping my internet existence out of existence!

And the Narcissist wins again thanks to popular support!

And I know from experience that there’s no point in exposing a Narcissist, a Narcissist writing about NPD and how they’re a victim of it and now an expert of it (which they are but not in the way they’re selling it) because I’ll become the bad guy and all the willing supporters of the Narcissist, those who have lived the horrors and trauma and subsequent PTSD of being in a relationship with a Narcissist, who still may be caught in the pattern of unwittingly falling for Narcissists and their ways, will attack me (worst case scenario based on experience) for exposing someone they believe is perfect, and it’ll backfire on me and give the Narcissist just what they want – a drama they can use for furthering their cause of being an immortal legend loved by all – and I’ll have to skulk off to that dark hole from which I emerged, retreat into my prison of silence.

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Bullshit

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Perhaps I’m just talking about myself, to myself again… you decide.

I’m done writing about Narcissists. They have taken over my life once again… and once again I have let them do it!

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fb+bitchin

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Meltdown over. And out!

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For more on Narcissists:

Narcissism and the Fruit of Suffering

Let Me Reach with Kim Saeed

The Narcissistic Continuum

NarcRaiders

Narcissism – Living Without Feelings

Energy Theft: Toxic Forms of Shame and Guilt

Narcissists Who Cry: The Other Side of the Ego

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116 thoughts on “Who is the Narcissist? – This is a rant

  1. B R I L L I A N T!
    Thank you VERY much for making my day. Pinned, shared and bookmarked for the next few weeks of my therapy sessions.

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  2. I’ve been raised by a narcissistic mother and now have found myself in a relationship with a narcissist. I question myself relentlessly about whether or not I am the narcissist because he says I am and not him. I doubt my own eyes and perception of reality. But one thing I have noticed about narcissistic people is they never self-destruct, they lash out and destroy. They never question their behavior. I find myself constantly confused and afraid. I feel like I’m drowning but never die and am unable to swim to safety. I hate myself so much these days and unable to let go of him. But I don’t understand why. He is not the type of man I want,so I don’t know why it’s so hard for me to move on. What is my problem?!?! I scream this inside my head over and over again. What is wrong with me that I believe that I deserve this and can do no better? I just don’t know. But thank you for the post, it is helpful to know that I am not alone although it saddens me that this personality disorder is so prevalent. I used to be upset about him telling everyone that I’m the problem and I’m a crazy bad person, but I have slowly realized that he is doing me a favor. The people that believe his rhetoric and propaganda about me are not the type of people I would want in my life anyway. It’s my only silver lining at this point.

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    1. Thank you for sharing 🙂

      What you said about narcissists never self-destructing is interesting because from my personal perspective they regularly self-destruct, and when it happens they take everyone within their radius with them. Then they disappear for awhile only to reappear later in a new and improved form with a new facade. However they don’t experience ‘self-destruction’ the way that non-narcissists do – it is a different version of similar human tendency.

      They don’t question their behaviour because doing that would require self-reflection and they don’t know how to do that. They need others to reflect them, to reflect back at them who they are. So their version of self-reflection is to project and transfer all that they are onto others and them accuse others of what they do and who they are. Hence why a narcissist is most likely to accuse someone else of being a narcissist (especially nowadays with ‘Narcissist’ being a popular accusation). The difference between a narcissist accusing someone else of being a narcissist and a non-narcissist doing the same thing is that the narcissist will not doubt their accusation, they will use everything they read on the internet about narcissists to prove that they’re right (and therefore justified and righteous), whereas a non-narcissist will doubt their perception, will question their ‘diagnosis’, and may end up wondering if perhaps they’re the very thing they’re accusing someone else of being (which is actually a normal and natural part of healthy self-reflection, and also a sign of empathy – something else which narcissists don’t know how to do but often think they do better than everyone else).

      There is nothing ‘wrong’ with you. If you’re going to ask ‘What is wrong with me?’ then you also need to ask ‘What is right with me?’.

      You’re human and being human.

      You don’t have a ‘problem’ in the ‘what is my problem?!?!’ kind of manner, what you have is a ‘problem’ of the complex relationship puzzle kind.

      This is an article worth reading (I learned a lot about relationships from reading the author’s book on ‘Soul Mates’) – https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199403/soul-mates

      When we ‘fall in love’, form a strong attachment to someone (whether the person is our ‘type’ or not, who we want or not), the relationship we have with them tells a story, teaches us about ourselves, informs us about our ‘history’, gives us insight into things which matter to us (as well as that which doesn’t matter to us).

      The things which are keeping you in this relationship are not necessarily things that are ‘wrong’ or ‘problematic’ about you. They may seem that way but dig a little deeper and they may actually be the opposite of what they seem. Your mind is judging you quite harshly for this, that’s what the mind tends to do, but the mind is just one part of the whole of you and ‘puzzles’ like the one you’re facing require more than just the mind to figure them out.

      This relationship and the challenges it has given you is making you get to know yourself better, and figure out what it is you really want. Sometimes the only way we know what we want is by experiencing everything we don’t want. Experience is far more valuable in the long term.

      Be gentle with yourself.

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  3. Hi,Ursula.I´ve been reading your blog in the hopes that i´ll get some clarity.Have i?Yes and no.

    Yes bc i can see all the paths my thoughts have made in a attempt not to be neither the victim nor the perpretator. As you said,it gives a certain ressurance,bc you see other ppl pondering about all the apparent paradoxes that go hand in hand with this.
    No, because these paradoxes leave me in the same despair that brought me here to fight that despair in the 1rst place.Am i being cryptic with this?

    I think your friend really is on to something in that borderline personality is the place of compromise between becoming an empath and a narcissist.

    I haven´t contacted my mother for 7 years now. I wasn´t in a love relationship for 9 years,then got into one that lasted 5 months and a half,and about 6 months ago broke it off. So on 1 side, i blame myself entirely,bc of the “i should have seen this coming”.But then i feel-rationally?-that i´m throwing myself under the bus,for i´m also so-PAINFULLY-aware that every time things didn´t ad up,i confronted him,trying to use thinking and compassion tools to try make a healthy compromise between us both being ourselves in a relationship.
    Feel free to laugh, but that´s what any reasonable(this is not all about me,this is not all about you) creature would attempt to do.But then being utterly unreasonable is what defines these situations. And when i saw that nothing was going to change,that the situation i was in was hopeless,i allowed my anger to be expressed,i saw how scared he got.
    Bc i had warned him,you know?I explained that i´d rather be on my own than with bad company,hence a relationship has to be worth it in terms of inner work.Everybody has to work on their flaws, it´s part of life. I think he knew,but couldn´t actually believe i would ruthlessly end it after being so compassionate and patient. But he should have seen it coming. The actions-words accounting.He knew how i thought and felt,from the begining,and he still did the narcissistic cycle thing. After breaking up he came over to get his things. A part of me knew talking,being reasonable would only entangle me in his web of lies,so no contact.
    I should get a kick out of “interrupting” his cycle,he didn´t get to swallow me completely to regurgitate me completely. But my heart tells a different story. The only reason i haven´t killed myself yet is bc somehow a part of me relentelessly hopes i will survive and emancipate myself from the bondage dynamics i see around me(and also,that would make the pathological narcissists a favour, i just won´t give them that,so there you have,my sheer stubbornness). But being alive is being a witness to injustice. So i don´t want to engage in anything,with anyone. And think “Maybe being a hermit and focusing on my work will let me live a relatively decent life.”But shit, isn´t that what my parents have done with their lives?And the consequences this had and has on other ppl…This must be what “the fruit of knowledge” means in the bible.
    I want to live a good life,which starts at a place where you don´t bullshit yourself, you don´t bullshit others. And that continuously brings me here,on the edge of full despair,where i really wish i could be nothing.
    You know that thing you said about living well being the best revenge? I told him that when we met and he engaged in speaking of the ppl that ruined his life. He was surprised, i think he had never looked at it from this perspective.And months later he´s doing it to me.
    So yes,we are stupid not believing them,but when you do this the other way around, they don´t believe you either. After break up i cried for hours everyday,even though i kept my resolve to not contact. I was hoping i might loose to gain myself afterwards. So you never win,not even yourself? I was was in a relatively good place when i met him,not consciously trying to find a mate,but slowly emerging out of the hermit stage. I was creatively(work) in a better place. Now this is the gift i have. Knowing i had to act like a beast to get rid of him. Knowing he won,bc i so desperatly wanted to get rid of the beasts,by the “live and let live” rule that i´m so fond of, and the only way out was being one to them,so the saying gets corrupted into “kill if you want to live”,but you´re really killing yourself,seeing as they´re already dead where it counts, and you feel you´re dying at their expense. If this doesn´t crush anyone´s faith in humanity,then maybe what i feel/imagine peace looks like must not even exist. I feel trapped. I feel robbed of all the constructive traits i usually have. Creative-constructive still leads to this. So yes, it gets to a place where i can only blame myself, and not out of wanting out of being responsible,but precisely bc i believe in making yourself accountable. What a sick game. It´s like those mazes that don´t really get you anywhere much better.

    Thank you for your patience and presence of spirit,i laud your effort not to whitewash the whole of reality. I don´t know how to come through intact out of this,as in the kind,carefree parts of myself.Those have been so infected…they either get consistently killed or else they need to be non existant in order to exist? This is so sick, this is so mind fucking,it´s hard to find a purpose(again constructive/creative one).

    About your attempt to stop talking about this as you feel you´ve given them exactly what they want, i so get it. But being alive means having to deal with these,they´re everywhere. That´s why all the zombie-vampire thing is so in vogue…

    Take care,Ursula. Thank you for letting me vent. I´ve retreated into the hermit mode, but you managed to get this comment out of me 😉

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    1. Thank you for sharing, I know how hard that can be especially when you feel like disappearing 🙂

      You spoke about being cryptic, and also of mazes that don’t get you anywhere, which reminded me of the video game I’ve just started playing.

      I know this is me going off on a tangent.

      It’s called The Witness and it’s a very simple game yet also incredibly complex, kind of like life. It has no instructions, no tutorial to tell you what to do and how to play it, you’re on your own and have to figure it all out for yourself.

      You’re on an island (which is stunning, the colours are so vivid), which has a bunch of different types of buildings scattered across it, some of which seem to have suffered from a cataclysm, there are no other people there (except some statues which look like people frozen in motion – so, there’s some mysterious story to this place, something happened before you got there), and you wander around finding these puzzles which are maze-like.

      Some of the puzzles are easy, you just move a line from point A to point B, and it opens a door, activates a bridge to access a new area or gives power to a new set of puzzles. Some puzzles require a lot of trial and error, in some cases making a mistake causes a ripple effect backwards and you have to go back to a previous puzzle – start that set again. Some of the puzzles have symbols and before they can be done you have to figure out what the symbols on them mean. Sometimes when you solve one, nothing seems to happen.

      Every now and then you find a piece of paper with a drawing on it, and if you input this drawing into a machine a video plays – the videos are of scientists, philosophers, life coaches all discussing what they think is the meaning of life in some way. I’ve only found two so far but I know there are more and that it somehow ties into the story, but it’s rather random and weird so far.

      In one video there’s a woman (I don’t know what her name is, if they showed it I missed it and I can’t find the credit on the game’s website) who speaks about ‘stopping wanting’, she just kept saying – stop wanting what you want. She seemed to be giving a workshop, and also seemed rather stoned. I think the point she was trying to make was about living in the now of your life rather than in that limbo where you’ll only be able to start living once you get these things which you want and you want them because you think they’re going to make life okay to be lived. Not sure though, it was a most peculiar clip.

      One of the reasons I play video games is I find it helps me to think, and can give me a different perspective on an old problem perhaps because it activates parts of the mind which I don’t necessarily use that much in daily life. I will often think about life problems while playing.

      I think why this game came to mind is because if you consider the brain – it’s a pink maze – and we humans really don’t know that much about it even though we study it a fair bit (but of course it’s a case of the brain studying itself, so it’s a slight paradox). And the mind is also a maze, a labyrinth of thoughts, a tangled web of concepts, ideas, some of which are buried in parts that we can’t seem to access unless we can figure out how to unlock them, and the combination is often in cryptic code. Sometimes all of our thinking feels as though it’s been scrambled by encryption. Problem is we’re the only ones who know our own personal code.

      Relationships sometimes can help us figure out our own code because in interacting with others we may suddenly see something about ourselves in them. Part of the reason we long to be in a relationship with others is because it helps us with our relationship with ourselves. But our relationship with ourselves can also cause us to have difficulties relating to others – and others may have the same issue.

      A relationship with another person is not just you and them, it’s you and all the people you’ve had relationships with and them and all the people they’ve had relationships with. So sometimes a relationship doesn’t work out not because of you or because of the other person per se but because one of the relationships they’ve had with someone else clashes with a relationship you’ve had with someone else.

      If this guy you recently broke up with has an issue about people doing things to him which then make him want to exact revenge, then he would have brought this into the relationship with you with him and somewhere it would have been waiting to rear its head. He’d find it in your interaction no matter what you did or didn’t do because it’s a scenario, a maze, in his mind which he keeps reliving until he figures out what it’s all about, what part it plays in his relationship with himself.

      Blaming yourself is a normal and natural reaction. One of the reasons we take on the blame for something is that it gives us power, especially in a situation wherein we may feel powerless – if it’s our fault then we can do something about it, but if it’s someone else’s fault then we have to rely on them to do something about it and if you’ve grown up with a narcissists your expectation of others taking responsibility for anything and sorting things out is fairly low to nil.

      A narcissist could be caught red-handed holding a knife while standing over the body of a person who has been stabbed, they could have even been caught on CCTV, seen by a crowd of witnesses, and even momentarily confessed to the crime, but they would still spend the next three hundred years of their and everyone else’s life denying that it was their fault. The victim was to blame somehow, they should have had thicker skin. The person who invented the knife is to blame. The person who witnessed them stabbing the victim is to blame. George Orwell is to blame for creating Big Brother.

      If you grow up with a narcissist and spend countless hours dealing with them going around and around in that maze-like structure inside their mind which they think is reality, logic, reason, and the only way, you come to know the desperation of a person wandering across a desert looking for water and chasing mirages. They keep you stuck there with them, escaping becomes an obsession.

      Taking the blame is a way that we attempt to escape the stuckness of the narcissist.

      If I can, in just about any given situation, I will take the blame, even when I am aware that there’s no way something is my fault, just to get out of the scenario whereby we all get stuck trying to figure out whose fault it is and waste loads of time playing pass the blame buck, everyone getting more and more defensive, offensive, upset and frustrated.

      This can work, but you do have to clarify with yourself what you’re doing and why, or your inner workings will kick up a fuss. If you take the blame and it’s not your fault, or not all your fault, your mind may object and hound you with its objections wanting clarification (and in some cases – vindication).

      There is a big difference between bringing out the beast when you need to save yourself from a situation and letting it stop around all over your life wrecking it and those of others. Your beast came out when you needed it, and only to protect you. The guy survived the encounter, and so did you. This is not something you do all the time recklessly like a narcissist. He didn’t win because you let your beast out. He didn’t win at all, he lost a relationship with you.

      And going off to be a hermit for awhile is not becoming like your parents. You’re not your parents, sure you’ll find similarities and crossovers (we have similarities and crossovers with loads of people in the world, not just our parents – but that’s the one which usually bothers us, especially if they are narcissists). You’re doing something which you need to do for yourself, for now, rest, recuperate, recharge, and reconnect to your self and your creative source.

      Give yourself the time you need to process things – you don’t have to solve all the puzzles on the island, you don’t have to solve any of them, just wander, enjoy the solitude after the storm of company, and let yourself just be yourself. Live and let live still lives, let yourself live. ❤

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  4. What is the answer?? I completely understand the paradox and as a Christian I am trying to find a God-pleasing answer that promotes TRUTH (some “christians” are the most ignorant enablers of narcissistic and codependent behavior ive ever seen). Theres got ot be some way off the cycle of insanity?!

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    1. Thank you for sharing 🙂

      I don’t think there is just one answer, there is no one size fits all because although we’re all humans, thus all connected, part of a collective, we’re each individual, unique in our experience of being human. What works for one person, maybe even several people, may not work for everyone, and in some cases it may make things worse.

      For me personally seeing narcissists as evil incarnate doesn’t work, it makes things worse. It’s one thing to experience a narcissist as evil, especially when you’re on the receiving end of the worst of their behaviour. My narcissist mother called me evil because I said ‘no’ to her request to give her all my money so she could give it all to her new best friend who was a con artist running one of those ‘Nigerian Prince’ style of cons. I didn’t give her what she wanted and that made me ‘evil’. Narcissists are quick to label others as evil, monsters, villains, abusers, etc and they don’t flinch one bit about doing that and then spreading the word about it, because they view themselves as saints, heroes, monster-slayers, the good ones, etc, when they do it and they spread the word about that and crush anyone who challenges their version of reality and truth.

      I saw a quote recently which said – Pointing out the evil in someone else does not make you good. Some of the people who view narcissists as evil incarnate, view themselves as good people, however, the way they seem to relish vilifying and witch-hunting narcissists doesn’t seem all that good to me. I have come across a few people who consider themselves to be good people calling for the genocide of all narcissists to make the world a better place. It is as though they’ve found someone else to die (or be killed) for their sins.

      Narcissistic traits and behaviours are normal and natural to all human beings, they are part of our experience of being an individual, and a portion of narcissism is healthy. Those with NPD are expressing an unhealthy, disordered version of a natural order. So if I decide that narcissists are evil, that would mean that if I find any narcissistic traits or behaviour in myself, I’m evil too, and if I find those in anyone else, they’re evil too. Which is going to end up leading to even more unhealthy things.

      In some ways each of us has to figure out for ourselves our own answer, and when it comes to things which require for us to ask ourselves difficult questions, to self-reflect, to face ourselves in the mirror of the world and see the world mirrored within us, we may prefer to avoid doing that and hope that someone else does the work and then hands us a pill we can take to magically make everything better.

      I found this article rather interesting – http://appliedjung.com/jungian-themes/shadow-jungian-themes/the-dark-side – and this too was of interest – https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/out-the-darkness/201308/the-real-meaning-good-and-evil – as is this – https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201204/it-s-fine-line-between-narcissism-and-egocentrism

      In some ways finding an answer isn’t as important as the journey we take to find an answer once we accept the challenge of the question.

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      1. What a load of hairy fairy bullcrap! Narcissism is a spectrum disorder. In the extreme it is pathological and destructive. Every individual has a choice about the traits or qualites they value and wish to incorporate into their personalities. What is evil is the bad choices many have made. What is the right way to live? Simple…look at the RESULTS of your personality! Have you brought peace, compassion, hope and encouragement into the world? If you care you will struggle to change…if you don’t care you are simply surrendering to selfishness and pride…which is the true “evil”. Herein lies the solution folks!…adopt true humility and altruism and pathological narcissism will die. What makes one evil is the remorseless conduct of one who chooses to remain a bad narcissist… because they are haughty and selfish. They will pay for their actions…not ONE pathological narcissist has ever had a truly happy life or good ending. NPD is the spiritual cancer of this world…and it is pandemic.

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    2. i have been married for 43 years. about 4 years ago, i packed up and moved out, escaped and began life over as a single father of two adult children. I had insisted on having both “leave home”when 18 yrs old with hopes that they would recover from their family life with their mother and myself. I am happy to say that they both appear to be living healthy, independent lives in their early 30’s.

      my experience after the seperation was difficult but, enlightening. living alone at 60 after that many years in an abusive relationship helped me get grounded for the first time in my life. prior to the marriage, i had escaped a physical, emotional, and sexually abusive childhood with my parents and two siblings. i had a mother who never held, hugged, kissed(although at 94 and all alone she has come around)

      i came to the understanding that i needed to be grateful that i had survived that experience, much like I survived my marriage. over the past three years, i have focused on the positives(my children and their lives) and have been attempting to build a new healthier existence for my self.
      about a year ago after maintaining a seperate but married relationship with my wife, we started to talk about trying to make it work. while seperated, she was pleasant, caring, respectful. She managed her finances, all things which had been absent for many years leading up to our seperation.

      in november 2014, i moved back home. it has been a year past and the old behaviors are returning. the difference now is that i will not tolerate the behaviors. what has become clear over the past few weeks is that nothing has changed with her. she had been masking the absence of any love, feeling or respect.

      i write to address the issue of evil that has been brought up. i truly had categorized her as evil prior to leaving much as i had labeled my parents for many years. it came to past that i let go the label for my parents despite now feeling that my wife is quite evil given her way of living. i guess my feeling is that it is not for one to say if someone is evil or not.
      what i have learned is that one decides what one will accept in their life. from my history, i decided to accept those behaviors much longer than most simply due to not knowing.

      the hard part for me now after all that i feel i have transended, is having to deal with all the horrible consequences once again. i do understand the despair as well as the unhealthy state of one life residing with a narc. as some have mentioned on sites and posts previous to mine, its one’s decision to accept that treatment. i for one have expended more than i wish to have from my life deciding to live with this manner of individual. i am finally in my mind deserving of more.

      j

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    3. Wow, this is such an accurate picture of the thought process victims of narcissists go through repeatedly. Thinking about the narcissist and the effects of being in that relationship… Then wondering if you might actually be the narcissist, since the narcissist you know probably believes they are the victim of an illogical and abusive individual. That gets you looking for narcissistic traits in yourself, and you might come to the conclusion that you aren’t actually a narcissist. But isn’t that what narcissists think, too? It’s complete circular logic, and is super frustrating.

      Good post! You have a really unique writing style that’s very honest and easy to read. It reminds me of a stream of consciousness in a way, but in a more structured form.

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  5. I have to say that for a “rant” your writing is excellent & moving! For many who would like to try and write some of these issues out ~> they find it hard; if not downright impossible even those who are writers 😦 or HAD BEEN @ ONE POINT IN LIFE anyway. Not being able to write anymore they’re even rendered mute in an entirely new way; some cannot keep a journal because of the abuse tactics used against them at one point which quickly taught them that even privately sharing their thoughts on paper was not safe either. So they read and they first feel sadness because they prayed that no one ever should experience this and if they could take it worse so no one else ever knew this oppressive, abusive, imprisoning, psychological, emotional, verbal, spiritual, financial & sometimes physical ABUSIVE SICK MENTAL, SOUL SUCKING TORNADO TORTURE EXISTED. So they’re sad at first but as they read it seems to give way to purge vicariously if only for awhile & as disheartening as the abuse is / was they heve a connection of understanding when all they have in reality is a sea of apathetic, easily manipulated, brown nosing, free loading, cruel evil pieces of crap who wouldn’t know the truth if it were tattood in neon on their obtuse foreheads! So, I guess it’s like the vicarious purge of reading & writing gives them a little strength and literally feels like you can breath a little easier. . Even if it’s for a short time 🙂 TY, 4 SHARING!

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    1. Thank you very much for sharing 🙂

      I know the muteness, it’s an ocean of silence which grows and grows, penetrating every pore. At first it can start as a retreat, a haven to protect you, the ultimate hiding place, but then it becomes a prison, whose bars close in on you, the space gets smaller and smaller as the silence grows bigger and bigger. That space is filled with everything you can’t express in any way, and it becomes crowded, suffocating, but you can’t get out, as outside there are hungry beings who devour anything you let out, who want to eat you alive.

      Problem is when you retreat into silence around a narcissist, that silence terrifies them and they try to break it, break into it, break you, so you have to retreat further and further, and the more you go deeper to get away from them, the more they try to invade the deepest reaches of you.

      I tried to deal with it by giving them everything and leaving myself with nothing. If I had nothing, then there was nothing for them to take, invade, destroy. If I had no words, there’d be no words from them to use as their own, twist and torture me with. If I had no friends, there’d be no friends for them to take over, poison, steal the friendship away so they could prove that they were the fairest of them all. If I had no passions, then they couldn’t take what I cared about and rip it out of my heart, turn it to dust, make me wish I didn’t care. If I had nothing I cared about, if I didn’t care about myself, then nothing mattered and there’d be nothing about me to interest them. They’d leave me alone. But they always think you’re holding back, holding onto something, and everything you give isn’t as precious as what they think you’re holding onto, hiding from them, depriving them of having. They want what you’re not giving them, because that must be the real treasure. I used to create ‘fake’ passions to distract them from the real ones. But eventually I didn’t have any real passions, or anything, other than finding a way to stop them from turning me into a wasteland. But my efforts to stop them from doing that, ended up with me doing it to myself. I ended up doing far worse things to myself than they ever could.

      I used to look at the world and see narcissists everywhere. Greedy, hungry beings who ate others alive, and never sated their deep pit of need. But then I met one person who wasn’t like that, and they helped me to break out of my own prison. Took a long time. I was reluctant to leave even though it hurt like hell to stay there. The hardest part, of many difficult stages, was facing what I had done to myself because of trying to cope with what had been done to me. Our own pain and fear is the worst narcissist of them all.

      I finally managed to break my silence, and this blog is the result of that, and part of the process of doing it. It scares me to express things as I do, but it also thrills with more than fear, and I’m so bored of being afraid, in pain, and all that entails.

      I read a lot, and found pieces of my story spoken by others. It did help, but it wasn’t until I told my own story that the relief lasted longer than a few minutes. I think the most startling revelation was how many people out there share my story, how in my words are the pieces of the stories of others. Suddenly the world is a sea of beings like me, and that is beyond my ability to express how it feels.

      Yes, there are a lot of narcissists in the world, but there are just as many who are not narcissists, who want to share not steal, who want to support not invalidate, create and not destroy.

      It’s very hard to break the silence once it has taken hold, you kind of have to reach that point where the cure is killing you and you either let it, die in silence or decide that since you’re going to die might as well let it all out before you go. The strangest part of it is that once I became more bold about expressing myself… it is a narcissist repellent. If only I’d know that years ago! But then again I don’t think I’d have appreciated it then or been as determined to let the words flood out and express them come what may.

      One day the writer within you will burst out and the words will flow in a way which will be strong and vibrant, alive with your creative spark, deeply infused with what the years of silence have taught you.

      Have you seen the Netflix series Sense 8. I’ve just finished watching it, and I think you might find it as beautiful as I did.

      Take good care of yourself, one day you will break free, and it will be an incredible experience. Those short times of relief, of doses of strength, small purges, have a way of accumulating, big things take time to gestate within, once they’re ready, whoosh!

      I still struggle, but now I know I’m not alone. And although there is the side of it where you understand just how many are suffering as you, there is inspiration in it, even if it is tinged with heavy sadness. We’re all part of the ocean.

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  6. I am 45 years old and the youngest of six children. In the last three years I’ve made the awful discovery of who my mother really is. When you grow up in narcissism your conditioned. She knew what her intentions for me were before i was born.How can you fight against a predator like that? The smear campaign started when i took my first breath. I could tell you about all kinds of atrocities but i think you get it. This bitch tried to kill me. TWICE that i know of. And she relies on the fact that no one would believe something so f!#@% up. I don’t believe she’s mentally ill. Her mind is not sick she has a diseased perception of reality. She delights in the misery she inflicts. And yes now i’m the one who is crazy and delusional. I’ve been calling her out on her bs so you can be sure she’s ramped up the character assassination on me. And since she’s been lying about me all my life it’s easier to believe.A preemptive strike. I’m sure your familiar with the kind of anger i have felt. And although i don’t speak to her through my frustration I’ve made a few angry phone calls.The game of psychological tug of war is over. Like puzzle pieces past expieriences make sense. When you know the truth, it may hurt but at least you can hang an explanation on it. She’s been telling family members that i’ve been sending her emails threatening to kill her, which of course is not true.But in narcissist speak what she’s really saying is this little bitch is on to my game and the threat of exposure is more than i can stand. same as pointing a gun at someone’s head. I’ve reminded her of her failed attempts on my life. Sort of mocking her that she couldn’t even do that right. I think of her as a ghost. Empty and angry that she can not feel love or real happiness. To hear good report about my family sickens her. The sound of my laughter brings her to tears. Biology doesn’t make a family, love does. When you really love something sometimes you have to let it go. My revenge is living my life free from her oppressive bs. So to me she is a ghost, and we all know there’s no such thing as ghost’s.

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    1. Thank you for sharing 🙂

      I do get what you’re saying, I know this kind of parent well, and yes, your life is mapped out for you before you were born to serve a purpose which your parent has for you. You’re a thing, an extension of them. My mother had a plan for me which is why I was created – she repeatedly reminded me of this and other pertinent things which were supposed to keep me in line with her vision for me – when I failed her (which is a constant when your parent has NPD)… she made other uses for and of me, other plans, which also failed… such is the life of a narcissist, other people keep thinking they have free will when we’re supposed be controlled solely by the narcissist.

      Indeed, the best revenge is getting away from them and just breathing fresh and clear air which isn’t owned by them and therefore we owe them for our every breath.

      I’ve been free of my mother for more than 10 years, but then circumstances caused her to make a return which could not be ignored. Still… I’ve found a way to acknowledge her yet also ignore her. We’ll see what happens. with a narcissist, these things take time, sometimes entire lifetimes.

      Who you are according to them, is who they need you to be for them to be who they are according to them. So if they need you to be the devil incarnate – that’s who you are. And if they need you to be angelic – that’s who you are. If they need you alive, then you’re alive, but they can kill you off when they need you to be dead (something my mother has done on and off with me). They’re basically the writer/director/leading actor of their own soap opera, and everyone else is either a supporting actor, a bit part player, or the audience… the audience beign the most important part of the show as someone with NPD is nothing without others. They need others to give them life, but they also need to tell others, control and censor, who others see and what they see, etc.

      It’s exhausting growing up in that environment… I can’t recall a day when I wasn’t wishing for a long and dreamless sleep which was uninterrupted. I’m tired – is my life mantra since before I knew what the word tired meant.

      We figure things out slowly, at our own pace, but once we do… we know. Once we know… we claim our personal power. Takes time because of all the complications and confusion involved. But once you know, you know… and never look back the same way.

      Trust yourself, take care of yourself, best wishes!

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  7. My whole entire life i was surrounded by narcissists. My father and his ex wife are narcissistic, my grandma and uncle are as well, my mother and sister are and my ex fiancé who made my life a living hell for the last 4 years is one too. I am always rebelling against them, and like you said it blows up in your face each time you try. Youre the true victim and yet to them youre the perpetrator. You do what you think makes you happy but to them youre not good enough to do anything that does indeed make you happy. You put yourself first yet to them putting yourself first is wrong. They want you to give them all your attention, to pay attention to their feelings, and to be nice to them becauae according to them, you owe it to them no matter how you feel about them. If you are nice to them they dont pay attention to you and if you are an asshole to them because you know they treat you like shit, they treat like shit even more. They blame everything on you. Yet all you tried to do is defend yourself and stand up for yourself. You stood up to your bully, and all you got was more bullying and abuse. If you ignore the problem, then you get bullied some more, and if you dont youre the one accused of starting drama. It is a vicious cycle that never ends. Anyway, i totally agree with your post. I am on your side and i believe you.

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    1. Thank you 🙂

      That is quite a story and legacy. It makes you realise just how strong you are, and how resilient. To be able to live through that and still feel deeply and to be yourself… kudos!

      This sort of experience gives you a great ability to perceive life and people from many angles. To see what is sometimes the facade of something else. As Shakespeare said – The world is a stage… – and narcissists take this literally and get applause for being so bold and taking charge of centre stage.

      I think one of the best things I did for myself somewhere messily along the way was to accept the negative labels and make them my own. As in – So you think I’m an asshole… and by calling me this you expect me to bend over backwards to prove that I am not by catering to you until you pat me on the head, if that ever happens but trying to get that reward is my goal, right… but what if… I decide to be exactly what you are accusing me of being? After all, if a narcissist accuses you of being ‘bad’… that’s a good thing. If a Bully accuses you of being what they are being… it means they aren’t able to bully you. So their attitude and accusations are actually a twisted compliment. You’re not one of them and you’re not allowing them to make you into one of their easy targets… if they’re annoyed at you, that’s a positive hidden within something very negative. Or something like that.

      My mother’s last words to me (in voice form) were – You’re evil – now why exactly was I evil? Because I wouldn’t give her the money she wanted to invest in a con (and I do mean an actual con by a con artist). This was on the phone and I hung up on her then changed my phone number and went No Contact. I just suddenly had one of those moments where things were very clear and I thought WTF, eff this! Since I’m evil… might as well use those powers. Narcissists aren’t usually generous with power so I might as well take it while it’s on offer.

      Funnily enough, the non-narcissists around me benefited from this – because I cut the narcissists out of my life and stopped being such a stressed out eff up – and the only ones who suffered were the narcissists. Hmmmm…

      If only this penny had dropped sooner, but I’m glad it did eventually drop 😉

      Thank you very much for your kind words and for sharing.

      Best wishes, take good care of yourself!

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  8. Narcissists are like cockroaches. They appear frail but they’re hard to annihilate. The reason is that narcs are FAKE. They’re all about projecting an image so even if you’ve wiped the floor with them they will PRETEND like nothing happened. You can never force a narcissist to act humbly or admit to being wrong. I’m at war with one now. She’s 29 years old. She’s basically a wage slave to her parents and sister in Manila. They demand large portions of her income and use it for raising their social status. I negotiated her work contract and applied for her visa so I know exactly how much she earns after taxes. So imagine my amusement when she’s boasting about “I have my prrraaaaperty” at Starbucks. Being haughty, she didn’t come to me for advice like I suggested and wasn’t prepared for a significant increase in her tax burden in her second year here. To cover she made up a lie that the city was miscalculating her tax and had three people on the phone accusing city hall accountants of stealing. One of them is a friend do I got her to visit the office personally with evidence that they knew what they were doing. Did she apologise for LYING? No. The bank has just foreclosed on her home because her parents forced her to take on heavy mortgage debt due to her stupidity and haughtiness. So she’s living in an expensive city and living on less than a third of her available income. BUT, she plonked a $15,000 Hermes bag and a $500 See by Chloé tote bag on her desk. Her feet are shod with $500 Tory Burch shoes. So stylish, but can’t afford a hair stylist and wears scrunchies. She says the bags are vintage but they’re fakes. I found out because she was shocked I would pay $80 for a designer handbag that was on sale. Oh and she didn’t know who Tory Burch was when a client asked her point blank where she bought her shoes. She gulped audibly when she saw me paying $42 for a bottle of face cream. Hmmm. She’s being legally pursued by a former employer in Manila for theft. If she goes home she might not be able to leave again as Filipinos need govt permission and no legal trouble to return to overseas jobs. Barely solvent and embroiled in legal trouble, she’s telling everyone she’s “going home on vacation” and messing with the work schedule. Her present target is a 70-year-old woman who’s had an angioplasty, pacemaker, titanium pins in her elbow from a fall, high blood pressure and early stage dimentia. She acts helpless and inept and pressures the older woman to act as an assistant making phonecalls, driving her around, arranging social events, translating documents and basically acting as her press agent. The woman is also a narcissist so the two are completely isolated because the rest of the staff knows how conceited they are. They therefore feed off each other for NSupply and basically don’t terrorise the rest of us. My battle with the young Narc is over some backstabbing behaviour. I’ve read everything on these creatures for the past two months and now I realise what I need to do: Find the wire that makes her run and sever it. I’m thinking an Emperors New Clothes Style takedown.

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    1. Please be careful when confronting a narcissist as they are at their worst when cornered and exposed – which is why psychologists tend to recommend not confronting or exposing them. They will become obsessed with destroying the person who ‘made them look bad’. The ones who focus on appearing ‘good and helpless’, who ‘play the victim’ tend to be particularly vicious as they are covert narcissists and really hate being exposed. Overt narcissists don’t mind as much about being exposed, they may even respect you a bit for standing up to them, although they will get back at you if you mess with them.

      If you confront and expose a narcissist who is playing the ‘victim’, they will use your confrontation against you – in some ways you’ll be walking into a trap. You won’t be the first person who has ‘found them out’ and you won’t be the last. They always have escape and back up plans. Don’t rely on others to support you when the shit hits the fan – people tend to put self-preservation first and you may find yourself alone in this battle. A ‘victim’ narcissist will turn your confrontation and exposure of them into a confrontation and exposure of you – you will be made to look like the victimiser of them, and they will brand you as a bully.

      Even if you plan this really carefully, have researched how to do this and think you’ve covered all the bases, remember that the narcissist has been playing this game all their life and it is all they think about. So even if you ‘win’ the battle, they will never admit to ‘losing’. Long after you stop thinking about them and the battle, think you’ve won and can get on with your life, they will still be plotting your downfall. They never give up a fight. So if you plan a ‘takedown’ be prepared for the consequences. Be prepared for this battle to last much longer than you thought it would because you’ve ‘won’. Since you’ve called narcissists ‘cockroaches’ please consider everything such a label and description entails – just when you think you’ve ‘squashed’ them, you find out all they’ve done is go very flat. A narcissist will hold a grudge forever and persevere until they die (and sometimes even after they die) in avenging themselves against you. That backstabbing behaviour which is the reason behind your takedown is the tip of the backstabbing iceberg.

      I’m sure you’ve considered all of this as you’ve read up on all the advice available on handling a narcissist and the warnings which go with such a tactic.

      A lot depends on what type of narcissist you are dealing with and where they are on the NPD spectrum.

      You may have already read this, as The Narcissistic Continuum is a good source of info about NPD, it’s an intriguing story and perspective on confronting a narcissist who is playing the ‘victim’ – http://n-continuum.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/online-narcissists-case-study-called.html

      Please be careful, please take care of yourself.

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      1. Thanks a lot for this. I am not scared. She’s not a very smart narcissist, so she doesn’t realise it would look weird to complain about health insurance costs while one of her bags costs three years’ worth of the premiums. This is a woman who gave me a very dirty look because I was in the room when she messed up a very important speech due to lack of preparation. Instead of being embarrassed or apologetic, she scorned me because she knew it would never happen to me. So, I know how dirty she is.

        My plan is working very well. She has already started doing exactly what I expected, acting super nice to clients and colleagues she usually spurned, sneered at and scorned. She’s also stopped carrying her fake Hermes and Chloe bags to work (vinyl tote bag costing $20) and is now wearing canvas shoes instead of Tory Burch knockoffs. I think her goal is to show me up. I am overeducated, fashion conscious and I wear a lot of makeup because I do a lot of media presentations. So she’s trying to look really dowdy, humble and down to earth in her appearance. Whereas before she was trying to convince people she was an aristocrat from Manila, she’s now presenting the image of “I’m so ignorant, innocent, Christian and guileless.” Her campaign works for me because she really just looks dowdy. We have a strict dress code so our very status conscious female colleagues just don’t like polyester. Good. Great. Because now she has to be much nicer to clients now because people aren’t telling her how “hot” she is.

        I greet her with a genuine smile every morning, and make a point never to step out of the way or avoid her. When she does that to me, I make sure it stands out to witnesses. Also, I know that her situation back home is causing her a great deal of stress and she’s needing to use all her energy to pretend to be nice and financially secure. So, I think she feels a sense of insecurity in her position if she’s going out of her way to rebrand herself as a good girl. Good. Better. If she were confident in her power over the situation, she would not run away from me, give me scornful looks, or leave rooms quickly when I enter.

        I’m okay with colleagues thinking that I’m a bully, because I’m senior to her and she has to do what I say, anyway. If I don’t have any control over a subordinate, I lose face in this culture. So, if she says she’s afraid of me, it will improve my status in the eyes of my colleagues and they’ll take my side. Great. Super. As long as she has to do what she DOESN’T WANT to do in order to fool others and get them to react in a positive way to her, as a way to protect herself from me, then I’m in FULL CONTROL of her situation.

        So what if she curses me behind my back? She already says she does this daily. I’ve thought of every single thing she could do and came up with a way of spinning it to my advantage without saying a negative thing about her to colleagues.

        Thanks for the warning, but I’m done running away and hiding from people like her. My mantra is excerpted from a speech by the late Winston Churchill:

        “…never give in, never give in, never, never, never-in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.”

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        1. It seems as though you have it planned and sorted.

          It is good not to be afraid of a narcissist.

          It is also good to be careful. Being careful, cautious, is not about being fearful, it is about knowing who you are dealing with.

          “It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.” Sun Tzu, The Art of War.

          I’m sure you’ve read The Art of War, most people in business have. It is particularly useful when dealing with narcissists. Studying Churchill is also useful.

          It’s important to remember that narcissists have access to same quotes and inspiration that non-narcissists do. And narcissists never ever give in, and always think they’re fighting on the ‘good’ side and that their version of reality and of others is the ‘right’ and only one.

          A ‘stupid’ narcissist is just as problematic as a very ‘clever’ one, in some cases they are far more difficult to deal with because they do not realise that they have met their match, so to speak. A ‘clever’ narcissist tends to respect those who stand up to them, or at least they avoid playing their games as much with those who can’t be manipulated and who see through their ploys, whereas a ‘stupid’ narcissist doesn’t have that kind of awareness and just keeps plugging away causing more and more disruption and havoc.

          How you are handling this will be witnessed by those colleagues of yours who are also experiencing difficulty with the narcissist. She’ll be doing the same routine with everyone trying to find sources of supply and allies. A narcissist in the workplace is a big problem, because it disrupts the work environment, creates a lot of drama, and often those in charge mishandle the situation, so it is always good to have someone stand up to a narcissist and set a positive example.

          There is a TV series which touched upon this rather well – Enlightened (2011/2013) with Laura Dern in the starring role playing a typical narcissist.

          Best wishes and thank you for sharing!

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          1. Thanks a lot for your encouragement and support on this blog. I would like to followup and tell you that your fears were thankfully unfounded. I didn’t go head to head with my narcissist. I simply used her personality against her. It is true my narcissist colleague goes out of her way to give me dirty looks and avoid touching things I touch, and even purses her lips in defiance of me when I am asking her a question (so as not to violate her “I don’t have to talk to you” rule). But, I don’t react and she believes she’s affecting me with her behaviour. The less I react, the more she fantasises that she’s won. However, a coalition of her colleagues have started noticing her “odd” behaviour more when I stopped cautioning her, and I didn’t have to do or say anything, but they went to our boss and asked for her contract to be discontinued. They say she’s not ready for the world of work, as she’s acting like a “baby”, and an “intern” and a “spoiled child”. They say they can’t put a finger on it, but she is closed minded, overconfident, self centred and lacking empathy. I was told two days ago that she’s going to be fired for sure. They won’t tell her until October, but I’m sure that they won’t recommend her for a new position given how much trouble she’s caused here. I think she’ll just get her air ticket home, and that’s it. Let’s call this a victory for upturned souls.

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            1. HA! That’s funny -> Let’s call this a victory for upturned souls. – You have an excellent sense of humour 😀

              I’m glad to hear things are working out for you, it’s always good to hear about a win against a narcissist, as it shows that such things are possible, and that when people choose not to buy into the reality of the narcissist, they can create their own reality which does not include the narcissist and their manipulations. A narcissist in the workplace can be very tricky to deal with, as it requires cooperation from colleagues and those in charge.

              Thank you very much for sharing! Best wishes!

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  9. Hi Ursula,

    Thanks for the rant. Would you mind if I (a) share a little bit and then (b) suggest that some issues be treated as being analytically different? Different, as in: issues that need to be addressed independently of each other?

    Let me start with the sharing. So as you know, I ended a relationship with a sociopath last year (Lauren). I’m starting to heal, in fact, I’m starting to see my experience with her – excruciatingly painful as it was at the time – as a gift from the heavens. Why a gift? Well, it’s really hard to see one’s own personality flaws and weaknesses objectively. Not sure why, but it is. But after seeing how Lauren systematically preyed upon my vulnerabilities, those vulnerabilities were painted in bright, obnoxious neon, making them impossible to miss. It’s as though a sociopath can serve as a radioactive tracer – inject it into your blood, and in a heartbeat you see all the holes in your circulatory system.

    Last night I had a nightmare involving Lauren. We were living in some beach town, maybe South Beach in Miami or somewhere in Orange County, California. In the dream, she kept deceiving me and engaging in the responsibility shifting and deflection sociopaths are known for. There was not a moment in the dream when I wasn’t immensely frustrated by her reluctance to come clean and live in the light.

    I’m still in the process of turning over the dream in my own mind, mining it for insights (assuming more can be had). But here’s what I do know: The reasons behind Lauren’s behavior are one thing, and the reasons behind my susceptibility to her machinations another. This suggests two things:

    i. What creates the aggressor? Sociopaths, narcissists, and other Cluster Bs behave in patterned ways that must be carefully uncovered, dissected, and examined in order to be fully understood; and

    ii. What makes a victim uniquely vulnerable? The victims of sociopaths, narcissists and other Cluster Bs are susceptible to victimization in ways that can be identified and examined to facilitate a complete understanding of what positive lessons can be gleaned from a painful encounter with an unmarked vampire.

    A lot of people believe, as you so rightly report, that certain Cluster Bs are born not created by environmental factors and events. I have not studied the literature sufficiently or had enough experiences with different types of Cluster Bs to have an opinion here. But I can speak from personal experience: It pains me very much to think that Lauren never had a soul, never had a heart that I – or another – might meaningfully connect with. I cannot speak for you or anyone else that has survived a narcissist or a sociopath, but for me, part of me finds it impossible to fully give up the hope that transformation is possible.

    One final thought. When I got to the end of your post, I wanted to give you a hug. I wanted to tell you this: It does not matter who believes you. It does not matter if you’re the only one who knows what happened to you. Your heart and your instincts know precisely what happened, along with what kind of being visited harm upon you. And you have expanded your consciousness, your very being, as a result. Let the narcissist strike you down, for you will return wiser and more powerful than before.

    Logan

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    1. Thank you very much 😀

      I completely agree that each person and each situation and experience is different. What was partly frustrating me when I had this rant is the notion that people are searching for a ‘magic’ formula to explain everything and everyone and pop it neatly into a box and that’s that, no need to look further (or inwards), dig deeper (within the self or the other), or understand (the victimiser or the victim).

      I get the desire to have an easy explain-all solution to a problem, it’s a very human desire and there are many problems which are solved this way, but problems connected to the human psyche are complex. Unique to each individual and their experience of life from birth, and sometimes during their gestation because the baby absorbs everything the mother is experiencing during pregnancy.

      There is no one size fits all answer. There is no magic pill to cure all – the magic cure-all pills which we do have create new problems. And that’s how I view the – born evil – solution. It’s a new disaster of human creation in the making. AND the people most likely to embrace that idea and sell it as a proven fact are the very people it was created to label and explain.

      Narcissists and sociopaths are the ones most likely to point the finger at someone else and say with conviction – and convince others while they’re doing it because they know how to sway the minds of others and they do not do self-doubt – that they are the Narcissist and sociopath, that they are incurable and born evil. They are the ones most likely to seek out a position of power over others, a position which allows them to control and censor and make the rules everyone has to live by.

      It’s a witch hunt in the making, and the real witches are going to take over the witch hunt and use it to burn people who aren’t witches. History has many examples of this.

      The average Narcissist and sociopath was not born that way, they became that way due to constant abuse from someone who had complete authority over them. There have been studies conducted, exploring the origins of psychopathy which have linked it to brain damage sustained in childhood to a particular part of the brain which is in charge of impulse control. This is the part which stops us from acting on strong emotions and urges. If it gets damaged, the barrier between wanting to kill someone because you’re angry, but not killing them because that is wrong, and killing them is removed.

      However with the average Narcissist and sociopath it’s not about brain damage but the damage of abuse – be it physical, emotional, psychological, all of those or one or several. They tend to do to others what was done to them when they were powerless and helpless to stop the abuse, and since no one protected them or came to their rescue, they disconnected from/never connected with others.

      You can’t cure them, they have to want to cure themselves because the process of recovery from NPD or sociopathy is extremely painful. The best you can do is understand this, detach and move on. They have the right to be who they are just as you have the right to be who you are. If you don’t accept their right to be a Narcissist or a sociopath you’re creating a world of pain and frustration for yourself.

      Speaking of dreams and the language of the subconscious, I saw an excellent film last night – Warm Bodies – which is a metaphorical insight into our society and its disorders (at least that’s how it struck me).

      Thank you for sharing, much appreciated insights!

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  10. Taking it one step further – I grew up in a family of psychopaths, and narcissists and it is my personal observation that they are born with those brains like being born left-handed. The environment plays a part in their outward behavior. Early childhood abuse does not cause NPD or psychopathy. Dysfunction and abusiveness are rather the symptoms that the parents are themselves afflicted. There are many neurological studies being done. I am championing the cause of genetic and neurological testing for people who are being placed in a position of trust. (Something akin to uses of STD testing.) To help unmask the psychopath in your life, please see my list of everyday psychopathic behaviors: http://www.harlantaylor.com/faq.html

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    1. Genetic and neurological testing for people to assess their reliability sounds like a recipe for a witch hunt… and history is full of stories of how well that has worked for humankind.

      First off – Who is going to set the criteria for these tests? Do they get tested too for trustworthiness and who is going to assess their results?

      Most likely the people who will be deciding the fate of those tested will be sociopaths and narcissists because they like to be in control and to censor people, they also know exactly how to manipulate their way into a position of power and to convince others to trust them. So we’ll be exactly where we are now, only branded as sociopaths and narcissists by the very people this test is being designed to weed out.

      The other type of person most likely to be in charge of this kind of testing is someone who has been wounded and traumatised by a sociopath and/or narcissist, and their motivation will be coloured by their experience and pain. It might become vengeance, conscious or subconscious, using clinical justification.

      The road to hell for one and all is paved with save-the-world good intentions. And if you base our fitness as humans on genetic and neurological testing… we’re all in trouble because our early ancestors lived in a kill or be killed environment and we all have that primal survival instinct, it’s just more latent in our modern civilisation, but it is still there and it rears its head when we are placed in certain situations. Sometimes it shows up as a heroic act and sometimes as a villainous one – all villains think they’re heroes. And wars show us that there are always at least two sides of a story.

      And would you pass or fail this test? If you grew up in a family of psychopaths and narcissists then, according to your view, you will have inherited a similar brain. However you may consider that you are the exception to your rule, just as Dr. James Fallon considers himself to be.

      You might find this interesting: http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/pseudoscience-psychopathy/

      There is no ‘magic’ formula for knowing other people and what their intentions are, it’s up to each individual to be responsible for themselves, take there time to get to know others before they hand over their trust, and to question and think things through logically. To learn from bad experiences and to use them as negative muses for positive action – and to be aware of our own motivations. We all have the potential to damage others, especially when we are wounded. We’re human, we tend to lash out when in pain, and we have a tendency to delude ourselves. Awareness applied with gentleness to ourselves and others is needed.

      Thank you for sharing your link. It offers some good pointers.

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  11. Hi Ursula! I loved your rant. Rant away. Rant about NPD and the stupid ideas people have about narcissism and narcissists. Rant about the way the Internet allows people to ‘manage their image’ and fine-tune it until it shines when underneath their facade is a fake. An imposter. A pretender. Some of the stuff I’ve seen online makes my hair even curlier than it already is. I can barely keep from throwing my keyboard and then I have to talk kindly to myself and do the Re-Parenting thing: “Self, people must make their own decisions. And they will learn from those decisions just like you do. And self, remember this: you cannot save the world from pain.”

    But oh, how I wish I could! I wanted to say a couple of things though:

    1) You will know who the person with a narcissistic personality really is by the relationships they have (or don’t have) with others. Some of the POSERS on the web “out” themselves by the continual conflict surrounding them. If you are able to to create relationships with people, to apologize and feel remorse and care and love people as your equals, then you aren’t a narcissist. And that’s that. So no matter how someone presents themselves on a web page or elsewhere, the quality of their relationships is a ‘dead giveaway’ as to WHO the real narcissist is. It may take awhile—people are easily fooled until they get their toes stomped.

    2) There may be a genetic component to NPD but to say a narcissist is ‘born’ is a fallacy in my view. There’s the propensity (such as a disagreeable personality and increased aggression) but environment brings those traits out (or suppresses them). That is my understanding. I have two children from my narcissistic marriage and they are not NPD. Parenting is a factor; society is a factor; the culture children grow up in is a factor. I believe narcissism is a SOCIAL problem that is not isolated to the nuclear family.

    3) I dislike calling narcissists ‘evil’. Many people disagree with me but I have a friend with a son who has NPD and he suffers a great deal because of it. He’s annoying for sure and he breaks hearts all the time but he’s not evil. But my opinion is based on family members with mental illnesses. My sis has bipolar and she lives with me and she’s doing great (with meds). So I’m probably more sensitive than most to calling people with mental disorders “evil.”

    I hope this wasn’t too long or off-point.

    Hugs
    CZ

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    1. Thank you 😀

      It’s never too long or off-point, everything shared is of value. The comments are an intrinsic element of my posts, and in many cases they’re better than my posts.

      I love your re-parenting thing! I had to deprogram my parental programming and start from scratch, think for myself and find things out for myself, which is why I am an ‘expert’ at making mistakes. That’s probably my only expertise, but it’s useful, experimenting in life is necessary to check and explore things. And I have found the same thing as you and I agree – I am responsible for myself. Others are responsible for themselves. The lines only blur when you have children, then you’re responsible for another individual, and part of your responsibility is to give them the guidance needed to have the personal power to be responsible, gradually, for themselves.

      I really like your approach. You help people to help themselves, you show them that they have personal power in and over their lives and relationships, and you give them the information they need, what they do with it is up to them. It’s their life and the power is theirs.

      I think pain is an ally, and not an enemy. It is a part of life on Earth, the Earth itself feels pain, all of nature feels pain, so it is a connective link between all humans and our elemental roots. Once you realise what the purpose of pain is, to point to a wound, bring attention to it to heal it, then it becomes an inspiring thing rather than a repulsive one.

      Society I think has a Narcissistic wound, and I’ve probably wrongly decided that it was created during WWII. If I base it on the theory that NPD is caused by someone in authority over the child who develops NPD pushing their real and developing self out of the child and taking over control of the child, replacing the real self of the child – which is unacceptable to the authority figure – with a false self – one acceptable to the authority figure – which then becomes the ever-changing false self of the Narcissist. WWII did that to society, on all sides of the war. All the countries involved had their individuality pushed aside for a common cause, those in authority demanded that the population of the country had to pull together, push who they were and what they needed and wanted out of themselves and replace that with what the authority needed and wanted them to think, be and do. After the war, when it was time to rebuild nations, the population still had to work together as a unit under the instruction of authority. The children (like my NPD parents) who grew up during this time did so in a very unstable environment with many conflicting views of life. The old guard wanted to return to safety in one way, the new guard saw the opportunity to profit from the instability and create a new world and a new kind of safety. They had a Carpe Diem of life which gradually became a – create your own reality ethos, live the dream, you can be whoever you want to be, and don’t let anyone stand in your way (but feel free to take advantage of them – that’s called progress and survival of the fittest).

      If you look at the subsequent themes of the generations which came after WWII, there is a slow build up of Narcissism as the ideal in society. Greed is good. Gordon Gekko as the ideal of capitalism and entrepreneurship. The heroes and heroins of our times have become more and more Narcissistic… until the bubble of their reality burst recently and left us all reeling. That bursting bubble coincides with the rise in information about NPD, and in people wanting to know more about it.

      There, that’s my tenuous theory. I like to explore the personal on an impersonal level to get a different perspective. I’d like as rounded a picture of NPD as possible, just for my own personal reasons and experience of it. I want to understand my NPD parents.

      The splitting of Good/Bad(evil) as you pointed out in your article is a Narcissistic tendency. We want a ‘magic’ formula that makes sense of everything. A way to categorise everything and everyone neatly. Especially one which absolves us of blame and responsibility. So calling something or someone evil and saying they were born that way – well, there you go, it’s nature’s fault. No one is to blame! And we can all deny responsibility and the part we may have played in encouraging something like NPD to develop and spread like a virus.

      The thing is – Those NPD always tell you they are Narcissists, and they tell you how the wound was caused. It’s woven into their speech, it’s a raw truth in amongst the telling you what you want to hear charming and not so charming lies. So their contempt for us is in some ways justified – They warned us about themselves, we didn’t listen. Not only did we not listen, but we’re still refusing to accept the evidence, we’re trying to save them with our love which is supposed to conquer all – so who is the Narcissist? And if we accept how they treat us, keep forgiving them and making excuses for them, then we’re colluding with them to hurt ourselves, so we must like it.

      Those who are not Narcissists are sometimes as illogical as Narcissists, especially to Narcissists. They know how to manipulate us because they study us, but they really don’t ‘get’ us, they just get used to using us against ourselves for their benefit.

      Love your work and your insightful grasp of NPD, thank you as always for sharing 😀

      Now, this is long! And rambling! 😉 do I win!?!

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      1. I think what you share here is wonderful information and helpful to lots of people. 🙂 I am not a victim of narcissism but being an emphatic person I happened to come across and encounter narcissistic personalities and the initial contact was extremely painful. Really tough one!
        However, in time I reached to do research in this area and we found some results from the clinical analysis upon which I would like to ask your opinion:
        1. Do you think that empaths and narcissists could be produced by the same time of early emotional abuse from a narcissistic parent? That is, to be an opposite response to the same type of trauma?
        2. Most research literature points toward a very low prognostic for NPD cure, and for solutions they account for the will of the NPD to cure. But their will, as their inner phenomenology, is completely faulty due to their early experiences. So, it seems we run in a vicious circle here. Isn’t there any solution for them? According to your direct experience do you think there is any realistic chance for them to run out of this condition?

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        1. Thank you 😀

          I’m still exploring Narcissism and doing research too, and there is a lot I don’t know. Mostly in my writing I am trying to work out my own experience of people with NPD.

          Empaths and Narcissists have certain traits in common – the main one being a lack of boundaries between self and other.

          I have met a couple of Narcissists who believe that they are Empaths. Which is not entirely untrue. Narcissists are ‘bad empaths’ in as much as they use what they pick up from other people to manipulate people – this manipulation is not always conscious if they are the type of Narcissist who thinks they’re a good person doing good and who must save other people. It is very conscious in cerebral Narcissists and it is not used for the benefit of anyone other than the Narcissist.

          The wounds which create Narcissists and Empaths have similarities. They both have a consistent and continuous traumatic experience as young children connected with someone who has complete authority over their life.

          However an Empath is usually made to become a caretaker, forced to push their needs aside for the needs of someone else, usually a parent – they become the parent to an adult who becomes their child – role reversal with trauma and painful consequences. Empaths manage to maintain a sense of self (ego/identity), they just do not get their needs met, they have to meet the needs of others, they are not allowed to have needs, and they take care of their own needs too only after they have looked after everyone else’s needs.

          Narcissists have their developing self (ego/identity) pushed out of them and replaced by a false self. The person in authority who inflicts the Narcissistic wound on the child is in complete control of the child, who they are and what they must become. This is constant, day after day after day, with no let up. They are being programmed to be someone they are not and to forget that they are being brainwashed, to believe that they are who they are being told that they are and must be, and be better than that.

          You can see it in the family dynamic of child prodigies and in child celebrities whose parents and other adults in positions of authority control their career.

          Can an Empath and a Narcissist both come from the same family/parent? Yes. But I don’t think the trauma will be the same, it may however have similarities. Narcissistic parents when they have more than one child tend to assign roles to each child for the child to fulfill. A Narcissistic parent will choose which child is going to have the Narcissistic wound and which one will serve a different purpose, such as being an Empath and looking after everyone else’s needs. It won’t be a conscious choice. If the Narcissistic parent is training one child to become superior to all other humans, a brain, then someone else needs to be the big heart of the family. Much of this depends on whether the other parent is colluding with the Narcissistic parent or not, and if the other parent is Narcissistic or Empathic. If the other parent is an Empath they may influence the child to be empathic or they may do the opposite as they don’t want their child to be like them.

          Family dynamics are like chemical formulas, however each family is different as each person is an individual whether they are parent or child. Generalisations can be made but they lack significant data or a very human and individual kind. Circumstances, environment, society, culture and many other factors come into play as influences.

          Is there a cure for NPD? There are people who claim to have NPD and who have worked on recovery and gotten better. Did they really have NPD or just think they did because they were Narcissistic? Anyone can become a Narcissist and Narcissistic at any point in time but NPD only happens in childhood. NPD is different from being Narcissistic. We use the word ‘Narcissist’ to describe someone who is egotistical/Narcissistic and someone who has NPD. The two things are different but they have overlaps and similarities and it is sometimes difficult to distinguish between the two.

          I think there probably is a cure for NPD, but it may be too painful and traumatic for the person with NPD. Mostly the claim that there is no cure comes from the fact that so few people with NPD go into therapy to cure NPD – they may going into therapy for depression or something else – and so professionals have very little data on the disorder and how to work on it to cure it.

          It doesn’t help those with NPD that there is now a witch hunt of sorts going on against them. If someone with NPD were to think – Do I have NPD – and it does happen in moments of sudden self awareness which disappear very quickly – and they did a search on the internet what they would find would send them diving back into their NPD wound and barricading the doors, confirming their contempt for other people. It’s a Catch 22 for them.

          For someone with NPD to cure their disorder and heal their wound… it would be excruciatingly painful and maybe more traumatic than just living with the chaos NPD creates in their lives and the lives of those they meet. They would also have to do it alone – even with the help of a professional who has experience of NPD – as they have to find their real self(ego/identity), no one else can do it for them or help them do it.

          Those are my unprofessional amateur views… what do you think?

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          1. Dear Ursula,

            Thank you so much for your time and answer. You are such a generous and altruistic human being! If you allow me an opinion on this matter I think your website should be named: An Upturned but/and (you choose) Beautiful Soul. 🙂 Your “unprofessional amateur views” actually look like qualified professional ones and I think you have a deep insight into these matters.

            I agree with the distinctions you made above. They are similar to the clinical experience and research I got. I am in contact with various types of Narc. Person. displaying various degrees of narcissistic treats and intensities but the one we are more concerned is of course the NPD, the most debilitating one. I also agree with you concerning the types of reactions an NP would have if searching on internet, and I am profoundly sympathetic with their suffering and those of their victims.

            It was my mistake but I think my first intended question actually was: Do NPD and EP (emph. person.) represent a different individual choice to the prolonged emotional trauma they were exposed to?
            Our present data are contradictory:
            1. On the one hand, some clinical data indicate that the level of the trauma might have been different for the BPD and EP depending on the quality of the encounter between the inborn data of the baby and those of the first environment (usually the mother).
            2. On the other hand, other clinical data indicate that in cases where there were conditions for a NPD to occur it didn’t. For instance, it is the situation of a child whose first 5 years from his psychic life is plain missing due to massive sensory default (when found in an orphanage the child could not even chew, did not have the ability developed, or he couldn’t simply to go up and down the stairs. Despite the level of deficiency which was so obliterating and high, with the proper loving support and care the child recovered and did not develop any NPD. This child presents in his psychic life a type of ‘black hole’ due to his initial deprivation, but he presents none of the traits found in NPD. Is quite the opposite, a very altruistic, emphatic, sensitive and loving child.

            However, my view on inner illness in general is more integrative as I am a border researcher using a border methodology, which I developed during my PhD studies. My ‘border’ is represented by the interdisciplinary approach of both the ‘psychological’ and ‘spiritual’ factors that cause inner illness. The language I use is also different, although for communicating in the field I need to use the “consecrated’ formulas, otherwise in my communication with people and especially with suffering people I never use ‘formulas’, labels or the sort.

            I recently ‘rebecame’ 🙂 interested in NPD when I identified a narcissism social producing environment which actually creates a permanent and continuous cycle of abuse in the vicious cycle of victim-abuser. This cycle is identical with the one found in NPD and the victims it creates.
            Otherwise, the only paper I have written on this topic is from about 2 years ago. There I came with some new insight on the problem from the patristic perspective (christian writings from the 4th to the 14th century which develop a currently not so much studied but ancient ‘psychology’) and building on the work of the British psychoanalyst Winnicot concerning the theory of the false self (if you are not familiar with his work I strongly recommend him) to which I added patristic insight, I formulated the hypothesis that the NPD results from the annihilation of the ‘desiring power’. The paper was titled ‘The NPD or the drama of not being born into love’ and if you would like to read it I could sent it to you if you give me an email. I would very much like to know your opinion on this hypothesis.

            My warmest thoughts and love to you! 🙂

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            1. Thank you 😀

              I love the idea of what you are developing as I agree that a holistic approach gives a bigger picture and encompasses more, gives deeper understanding of human nature and how nurturing affects and shapes it.

              I haven’t read Winnicot yet, I had him on a list as his concepts influenced many of the people whose work I have studied and they referred to him and quoted him a lot, but I never got around to it. I get side-tracked and go off on tangents as they lead to interesting discoveries. Perhaps now is the time to do so. Have you read the work of R.D. Laing? I found the study which R.D. Laing and A. Esterson did of Schizophrenia very interesting as they explored how family influences the developing mind of the child, they published their findings in – Sanity, Madness and the Family.

              RE: your question.

              I sense a strong undercurrent of something personal to you in the question. It could just be your passion for the subject, but it feels as though you’re trying to unravel a Gordian knot within yourself through your research. Our passions are often driven by deeply personal urges, and this often makes us more determined and better able to penetrate into mysteries to find answers as we are not just thinking but feeling our way into the heart of the matter.

              I find that when I want to understand something pertaining to childhood/children, it is easier to delve into it if I recall how my mind worked and didn’t work when I was a child, because any choices made during the formative years were done using the mind of a child, which is different than an adult’s, the mental/emotional/sensory processes are developing during that time, forming connections, tuned into learning, absorbing everything, with few boundaries, the mind of children are more open and flexible than an adult mind, so their choices don’t make sense to adults.

              To understand the world a child experiences you have to view it through the eyes/mind/body of a child and not an adult. For an adult this is done by accessing your child self and the memories of the child self, not from the perspective of our adult self viewing our child self, but from the perspective we had as a child. Such as the fact that adults are giants to children, they tower over them and talk down to them not just in attitude but physically – which is why child psychologists suggest that an adult lowers their height to that of a child when communicating with a child.

              That technique works when communicating with someone with NPD – talking to them as though they are a child is more effective as trapped inside their adult body is a child. They think like a child – which is very flexible, intelligent, perceptive and able to manipulate reality using magical thinking.

              I think the key, perhaps, to finding the answer lies in primal instinct. Primal survival instinct is what makes decisions for us when we are a baby/child. A baby/child is focused on survival, self-preservation at all costs – including sacrificing the self and sanity as we know it. So choices are made based on survival and how to do that in whatever circumstances surround the baby/child.

              I think personality disorders are a survival choice, a coping mechanism. If viewed from when they developed, from the perspective of a baby/child, they make sense. Most coping mechanisms make sense when they are chosen and formed, it’s only later that what was ‘beneficial’ to survival becomes a hindrance and a problem.

              And we only perceive them to be disorders because we don’t all have them or the same ones.

              If everyone had NPD we wouldn’t notice it or consider it a disorder, it would be normal.

              And those with NPD tend to think that everyone thinks as they do which is partly why they feel constantly under attack and under threat, but also they feel that way because that’s what they felt as a child and why they developed the disorder. Those with NPD think and behave like children and are stuck in that phase of development, in the age they were when the wound was created. They relive their wound in all their relationships. If you study the pattern of their behaviour which is very consistent, you can see them repeating what was done to them as a child to other people. It’s like a ritual, similar to OCD in certain aspects of it. They’re passing on the wound, perhaps hoping someone else knows how to heal it, looking for a solution to a problem they can’t solve no matter how clever their mind is because it needs more than the mind to solve it.

              I think the type of trauma which a child who develops NPD experiences is a constant, consistent one that spans a long period of time. Repeated 24/7 trauma – drip drip drip torture/brainwashing pressure which they eventually give in to – by someone who is in authority and who has complete control over them and their life. This is why they are so determined not to be aware of their disorder, because to see it means seeing what caused it and what they did to themselves to survive it – they betrayed and killed off their real self – and that is too painful.

              It’s similar to a prisoner who is subjected to constant interrogation without reprieve or a cult member who is brainwashed and then re-programmed by a cult leader.

              If the parent/authority figure is consistent, the rules are clear, the authority is not challenged, the child conforms.

              But might they rebel during the rebel phase – puberty?

              If during the rebellious phase of development when individuation and separation from parents/authority/early conditioning is actively engaged, and the circumstances offer a choice of escape from previous conditions and conditioning – Can someone with NPD make a choice to change? Or is it too late already?

              If during the rebel phase they are not allowed to rebel/separate/challenge authority, then the NPD solidifies and becomes their reality and the false self becomes the real self permanently?

              Society makes a big difference too. Society since the 80’s has endorsed Narcissism very openly and made it ‘desirable’.

              If you survive your childhood, and your family, and expect to find freedom, help and sanity in society, then find society is as crazy/illogical/Narcissistic as your parents, it can become a case of – If you can’t beat them, join them. Because one person alone against the world is too much for one person to actually handle.

              Society, the media, bombard us with messages of who we should be, become, what we should do, think, feel, have… it’s a bit as though we’re all children of Narcissistic parents. So, what do we choose? Do we become Narcissists or Empaths? And what does the choice we make offer us as a life path? If we become Narcissists we can have success, a big house, a big job, a big paycheck, admiration, authority, power, etc. If we become Empaths we can take care of everyone else, give other people our money, offer them our house, our time, our admiration, our power, and let them control us and have authority over us because they need it more than we do, we’ll look after ourselves, we don’t need much to get by.

              I like to see how things play out on a wider scale. Society is a reflection of us and we are a reflection of society.

              Do you think that BPD is a disorder caused by someone who is caught between NPD and being an Empath? That they have not made a decision between which way to go and are stuck at a crossroads? Is that what you’re wondering? Is that what made you consider that the same wound gives the child who is wounded a choice between NPD or Empath? Or is it because empathy is considered to be something those with NPD are devoid of, and those who are Empaths lack the ‘Ego’ of those with NPD, or because Empaths and Narcissists often end up in relationships together, as though the two disorders are symbiotically linked in some way?

              There are overlaps between NPD and other disorders, especially BPD. But this could be because NPD is caused early on and thus subsequent phases of development are experienced through disorder and thus also become disordered.

              Lots of questions and I do not know the answers. I’m very intrigued to know what you discover through your research.

              You have a fantastic mind and heart 😀

              Thank you so much for sharing your insights, much food for thought.

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              1. Dear Ursula,

                Your response is full of wonderful insights and depth of understanding. I would say that you are a natural psychologist as many holding a degree are not! 🙂 Yes, I am familiar with R.D Laing’s work and I quite agree with him, except his radical reductionism. Winnicot will definitely help you and recently I came across a review on Sheldon Bach’s ‘Getting From Here to There: Analytic Love, Analytic Process’ which got my attention. As far as I could sense he has a proper understanding and therapeutic approach on the nature of NPD.

                Your intuition is right! 🙂 My interest in my research is personal as is the interest in my own life in general! Very personal! 🙂 That is to say that I live my life with the consciousness that everything I do gets me closer to ‘the kingdom of God found within’, God whom I know and experience as Love. In the field of human being is impossible to understand anything truthfully without having the ‘eye of the heart’ open and loving! But of course knowledge out of love naturally involves suffering, and not many are interested in accepting it. The rest are mere speculations, approximations of truth or pure fantasies. That is why people who had the direct experience of things but who can get the necessary distance to see them clear, as you do, are better specialists than the ones who have diplomas but are ‘blind’ on the topics they talk about. In other words, some start from suffering and reach to love, while others start from love and reach to suffering, both ways can provide deep and truthful insight, while the rest remain outsiders.

                Re: our discussion

                I find your description of what NPD experience as children as very vivid and identical to my experience of them. However in terms of clinical data and differential diagnostic, it comes to the surface the same and the same thing … somewhere, somehow it was a personal and individual choice, even if done under permanent and complete pressure. As I think it was for the EP. The profile resulting? A two level sado-masochistic combination. For NPD more outer sadism and inner masochism, for EP more outer masochism and inner sadism. Your description “Repeated 24/7 trauma – drip drip drip torture/brainwashing pressure which they eventually give in to – by someone who is in authority and who has complete control over them and their life. This is why they are so determined not to be aware of their disorder, because to see it means seeing what caused it and what they did to themselves to survive it – they betrayed and killed off their real self – and that is too painful.” … perfectly describes the core of their condition. 🙂

                However, there is this question: how come that other people exposed to the same or even worse type of trauma did not develop it. And another more important question: who or what maintains health? Paradoxically, but I think that the real understanding of pathology comes with the answer to this question. Psychology does not have this answer and that’s is why the understanding and treatment of inner illness will always be limited even if very detailed in description in places. That is why an integrative approach is desirable especially when approaching the problem of character/personality disorders.

                I also found that playing comes as a natural and quite effective therapy for NPD but unfortunately this is not a form which a regular therapist will adapt. I worked for many years as a child psychologist so for me was quite easy to notice ad approach things in this way. 🙂

                The most worrying fact for me as a specialist researcher is indeed the role that the society plays partially in generating, but mainly in maintaining the NPD, with its worst expression to be found in the inefficacy and confusion when it comes to the spiritual healing. In my opinion NPD is in its cause a spiritual problem, one which generated a certain typology in the psychic realm. If we really understand the cause, than we could be able to find the proper treatment as well. But when the ‘providers of spiritual healing’ are themselves confused, what chance are there? The primary caretaker ‘abandoned’ you, the family ‘abandoned’ you, the society ‘abandoned’ you, and the worst of all, the church ‘abandoned’ you by misunderstanding your condition (I supposes that there is no need to say that in the church the NPD’s are already ‘living with the saints’ :)). So now, where do you find help, who can help you get to the real you when everybody else contributes and maintains your inner falsification? It is an incredible existential trap!!! And this is what got my attention. My experience of God as Love does not let me accept the current state of affairs, as I know for sure in my heart there is a way out of this trap and everybody can see light, breathe fresh air and just be! Hence, my interest is indeed very personal. 🙂

                Also your hypotheses of BPD being caught between NPD and EP is amazing. Never crossed my mind this way, but now that I think, yes, the BPD can be seen as a NPD who started to rebel against the evil he was exposed and internalized, but does not know where and how to properly channel the anger. I will have to acknowledge you on this idea if I will ever develop it. It is a brilliant one, Ursula! 🙂

                I did my PhD research comparing what we nowadays call: ‘psychological’ (not psychiatric) and ‘spiritual’ illness. The result? Bluntly put, no difference whatsoever, except vocabulary. From the clinical perspective they address the same areas of being in different terms, with the specification that the spiritual perspective is usually more integrative, more complex and goes more in-depth in terms of etiology and therefore treatment. From here emerged the way I do psychology now and the way I address health and pathology of human being.

                In my view, when they rejected the true self, although we do deeply and understand and empathize with the conditions in which this thing happened, they also rejected God from within, God in Whose image all of us are made, irrespective if we believe it or not. And their real drama I think this is. Everything comes to place when you see the condition in these terms. Personality disorders may be seen as a coping mechanism only from the perspective of the false self, a mechanism meant to ‘adapt’ the person to the ‘outer’ world, but this is a form of ultimate aggression towards their true self.

                I think for the child was a problem of interpretation, an interpretation which he gave to what he was experiencing. He thought that he ‘will die’ if he will not adapt, the truth is that he would not have died but lived according to his true self. This also explains their paraxistic fear, which blocks their understanding in the present and that will probably come to its maximum in the moment of death, through which all of us will pass. If the NPD do not accept the fundamental ‘wrong’ that they did and was done to themselves, that is why they cannot accept the other ‘wrongs’ which they do but which seem to them ‘right’ even if they permanently have the feeling that something is fundamentally ‘wrong’ with them. Otherwise, irrespective of how much we understand and care as long as they perceive love as aggression and aggression as love, there is nothing we can do.

                They need to accept the suffering which they now refuse to live and acknowledge but which is within them and fuels the entire constellation of coping mechanisms. Then, they need to ‘rebel’ against the evil they were subjected to. In this case rebellion is more than healthy. But rebellion against evil and not on the people who unknowingly became its instruments. Then, they need to accept the deep envy, grunge and anger they dwell on and carry every day, even when they take very socially acceptable forms, such as working very hard, etc. All these are understandable as what was denied to them was their own humanity, their vital and legitimate needs, wishes, ideals, aspirations in concordance with who they really are. Essentially, wonderful gifted people, but usually different than the ones developed through the condition.

                Re: your questions

                1. ‘Do you think that BPD is a disorder caused by someone who is caught between NPD and being an Empath?’
                Yes, it seems so and strongly agree.

                2. ‘That they have not made a decision between which way to go and are stuck at a crossroads? Is that what you’re wondering?’
                No, it was not that I was wondering but your hypothesis is outstanding! 🙂

                3. ‘Is that what made you consider that the same wound gives the child who is wounded a choice between NPD or Empath? Or is it because empathy is considered to be something those with NPD are devoid of, and those who are Empaths lack the ‘Ego’ of those with NPD, or because Empaths and Narcissists often end up in relationships together, as though the two disorders are symbiotically linked in some way?’

                Ye, it is right, the ego and the symbiotic problems made me think that they actually ‘chose’ differently and that they were found under similar types of aggression but chose differently: The NPD chose to identify with the narcissistic parent in a trial to control the aggression he was exposed to, and the EP chose to bread the parent with what he was missing, care and affection, and thus becoming ‘the parent of the parent’ and basically rejecting his development/existential model. It seems that the NPD and EP came from the same root but look in very different directions.

                However, my psychological view on human being is embedded in a certain anthropological understanding which is difficult to detail here. 🙂
                These are only some of my thoughts and not necessarily final and definite ones … I am currently working on a book on the topic and hopefully, I will receive a research grant so as I can speed the process as there is a great interest on the direction I develop. 🙂

                Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and experience with such generosity. It is my experience that our inner healing process is always a communional one, for whatever our wounds. 🙂

                I wish you a lovely day and I embrace you with love!

                PS. Also, forgive me for answering a bit late. 🙂

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                1. Thank you 😀

                  Do you have a blog or a website? I’d be happy to link to it and promote it if you do 🙂

                  It’s been wonderful exploring this with you, you have great insight!

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                  1. I do not have a blog or website. The new direction in psychology i develop will have one, but in about one year time (or more) when the research will be finished (it will have English version and other languages as well)

                    Let me know how should I acknowledge you if using an idea of yours. It also crossed my mind that it will be great to co-author a book with you for which you could use a pseudonym if it better fits you! What do you think? 🙂

                    My warmest thoughts for a most beautiful soul!

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                    1. Here’s how I view ideas… they don’t belong to anyone, they belong to everyone.

                      Certain moments in time share a new idea – this was made very clear when I read Nausea by Sartre shortly after I read Steppenwolf by Hesse – not the same book but sharing a similar idea. And I looked for that pattern in other forms and it’s everywhere.

                      So…

                      If you like something I said, an idea shared, then take what you need and make it yours because it is yours as you saw it in my words, and you’re going to do the work to develop it, you’ll infuse it with your insight and wisdom and it will come to life as your creation.

                      If you want to acknowledge my small part in feeding your big inspiration – just pop me in the acknowledgments section somewhere.

                      You definitely don’t want to co-author a book with me – I have no patience, I’m easily distracted and I’m argumentative 😀 feel free to pick my brains any time you want – sometimes they have very little meat on them and are made of nonsense (which only makes sense to me usually or unusually). I deeply appreciate the offer and the compliment 🙂

                      Follow your muse… your passion will burn brightly and inspire many!

                      Thank you 🙂

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    2. Narcissists are evil. What they do hurts others and they cannot accept criticism or responsibility and won’t change so they represent evil in its pure form. Don’t get suckered. I’ve seen these people destroy my family with their protestations of helplessness only to deal out a fat dose of backstabbing after.

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  12. When I found this and some other posts and comments here in the last days, I felt strongly the frustration and pain, the anger, ranting – the emotion – I at first felt self conscious for my sharing in a sort of monologuing way too much of my story – in a way imposing those things that gave me pain – adding to yours – it made me realise that these Narc’ twats really do do a number on us all…

    We are mixed up and disorientated we have found here others who understand, in this there is at last some confidence in sharing in a place where you are unlikely to be viewed as the utter nutter…

    You all talk a lot of sense, you Ursula in your posts and the others in their comments and in their own blogs you all make a place that is nurturing and safe feeling – we are a bit of a mess inside us – this is a total disaster having narcissism in our lives but you are all beautifully lucid doing your best to get a grip on it…

    For me – I felt more peace inside me since I found you all in these last days than for longer than I remember – ((((hugs)))) – I am sorry maybe to have spilled too many of the specifics of my experience… they are the past and contain the pain…

    Grappling with the now – ranting – getting opinionated – debating – discussing – this fixes the future – this is a great thing…

    Thank you.

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    1. Thank you 😀

      What you’ve shared is very important, never doubt that. I know the self conscious side of it, blogging has helped me to work through that. To be bolder about sharing my views and just be myself, live and raw. It’s strangely liberating.

      Not all Narc’s are malicious. I know a few who are trying so hard to be good people… they still mess with people’s minds and lives, but their intention is to connect, it’s just they’re stuck in this loop of pain.

      The malicious Narc’s are another breed and yours is definitely of that sort. They get off on the mind efffing they do.

      It’s weird because in some ways Narc’s do us a huge favour, but we have to dig through all the mess to find the gift in it. Like you’re doing and have found. So there is some good shit in the bad shit.

      Never apologise for being yourself and expressing yourself! I love what you’ve shared with me, it’s helped me, inspired me. It didn’t affect me in a bad way at all, it’s all good. So keep sharing. Express yourself.

      I’m a roaring type of person 😉 always have been, helped me to survive my parents. I just do it more openly now 😀 Who knows my roaring might encourage others to roar too, and to be proud of being a messy human!

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      1. For me I think I think too much…

        This is the source of my self consciousness and my propensity, once it awakens, to begin to apologise for myself, a lot.

        I think also that my aspieness means that I am decoding the feelings of others in a brute force kind of intellectual sort of way, but I am not so sure about this because I do feel emotionally connected to people – but well – this is another subject altogether… I am happy that I have found you Ursula. 🙂

        My hugs are nothing like Saga Noren’s might be… aspie or not, I like to become lost….. I think mine are good. 🙂

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        1. I tend to feel as though someone is trying to absorb me when they hug me… something I only allow one person to do (my sweetie) 😉 …and I feel trapped (not by my sweetie, I’m very willing there). However I have taught myself to give hugs when someone needs them. They’re okay. You sound like you enjoy hugging so I bet your hugs are wonderful!

          You only think you think too much 😉 but your kind of thinking is the best kind, because it questions, seeks answers, looks for information, analyses, understands and explores.

          People’s feelings need decoding sometimes because they don’t get what they’re feeling either or why even if you ask directly and respectfully, and sometimes brute force is the only way. I like to play riddles and games on the internet (games on games sites not psycho games), and sometimes brute force is the only way because the hints don’t make any sense at all, and walkthroughs and answers revealed don’t explain it either. Some things just don’t make sense… it’s a challenge to find sense in it, because somewhere there is some sort of logic.

          I’m happy you found me too and introduced me to you! I think you’re great! 😀

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          1. Maybe we shouldn’t be hard on ourselves for “thinking too much” don’t you think this comes from having your reality fucked with? It means we learn to question and try to read between the lines. its a symptom but also a gift for to question means we have a freedom of mind. In one of Alice Miller’s books she uses the story of the Garden of Eden to show its the way the church taught us it was evil to question dogma… but its the only way to freedom, especially when we have been abused….

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            1. I don’t think there is anything wrong with thinking too much, especially if that thinking is processing all the data in your system (I sound like an android), and by data I mean sensory data, emotional data, instinctual data, conscious and subconscious data, memories, etc. If you’ve been in a relationship with a Narcissist then thinking too much is how you untangle the knots they tie you up in and clarify the confusion.

              By ‘thinking too much’ I’m talking about logical thought not anxious thought, not the voices in your head which make you doubt yourself, which pick on you, and which make you feel that everything is your fault and you’re bad, but the voices in your head which tell you that the person you are interacting with who is blaming you and everyone else for all their problems is being illogical and you should review everything which they say and do because they may well have NPD. It’s the kind of thinking which takes a step back before accepting someone else’s version of reality and says – Let me check with myself.

              If the abuse you suffer uses brainwashing and psychological torture, mind games, then your thinking gets completely screwed up, so you have to teach yourself to think straight, and then you can heal the mess that was done to you, and get rid of the voices in your head which belong to someone else and which are always picking on you, repeating the abuse.

              And we really shouldn’t be hard on ourselves at all, we can be firm but gentle firmness. 🙂

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  13. I must confess that I haven’t been keeping up well because I have been moving out in the process of divorcing my narc. I am very sad and during this process I’ve become very sad for him. He doesn’t usually realize what he does. He operates on instinct. i feel terrible for him but I have to get myself free. I can’t fix him and I can’t let him take me down any further. I understand the anger that must be processed when being victimized by a Narc but we have to fight the anger and not let it get the best of us and make us bitter. I hope you do stay online because your blog has helped me so much. But if you do shut down your blog the good you have done will continue to have an impact in the lives of we who have been helped by your insights. Just want to thank you for that.

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    1. Thank you 😀

      I was having a ‘moment’ which needed to happen. I am going to write less about NPD. It was taking over my blog, and it’s my fault. Luckily it is my fault and so I can solve it. I’m keeping the blog, just adjusting it. The self-destructive thing is tied into being the child of Narcissists, and is a very old pattern which I am working on slowly. My blog helps me to do that. Keeping my blog going when I want to delete it, is part of the healing process. I’ve blog-cided before. This time I’m doing something different.

      I love what you shared. Having compassion for the Narcissist in your life, as long as it is not the kind which keeps you stuck and trapped in the relationship, is actually healthy. You can be angry with what they’ve done to you, and with them, and also feel empathy for them. That feeling is a sign of strength and health. You’re acknowledging your needs and feelings and pain, and doing what you need to do, what is right and healthy for you. And you are understanding that a Narcissist lives in a world of pain, and what they do is driven by that. Understanding is a detached thing, and helps you to heal. And it works well with anger. Expressing your anger leads to understanding, as long as you listen to what you are expressing.

      Not all Narcissists intend to hurt people the way they do, sometimes they hurt others because they are trying to love others. But they don’t know how to love and they get frustrated, their world of pain rises up and spills out of them and their wound gets dumped on everyone else. You can’t help him or save him or fix him, and realising that is a powerful understanding. It helps to free you from your contract with the Narc. So next time they cry out in pain – Save Me! – you reply – I can’t save you, you have to save yourself! – at which point they show you that they don’t won’t and can’t, and the whole point was for you to do it indefinitely and so they stay a victim indefinitely.

      I admire your courage and resolve, and your heart of understanding. Beautiful!

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    1. Thank you 😀

      I was having a ‘moment’ connected to my issues. I shared it openly to confront myself, as I do in most of my writing. I am scaling down on writing about NPD, and I’m going to focus on other things.

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  14. Reblogged this on Show Me Who You Really Are and commented:
    This.is.brilliant. A standing ovation to An Upturned Soul for having the strength to stand in herself and the courage to R O A R her truth. This woman just blows me away with her clarity and strength. She is TRULY a rare gem in the world. You go girl. 😀

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  15. Ya know . . . I also recently went through a moment of feeling like deleting all of my blogs and disappearing into the ethers because what’s the point? Sometimes I feel like I’m only talking to a wall or the sheep who follow walls. But then it hit me . . . that’s because they’re the ones doing all the damn yapping. And by that, I mean I hear the ghosts from my past yapping in my head and I can’t drown them out to hear myself or to make myself heard. And THEN it hit me . . . that there are a lot of others like me out in the world who are having the same difficulty. They are locked in that box of silence for the exact same reasons that you spoke about. They had their voice and identity stolen from them. And I mean, look at what a mind-fuck the whole thing is? It’s so many twists and turns and nightmares that few have the awareness and clarity to see it, keep it straight in their own mind, and then communicate it out to others with confidence, power, and authority.

    Kind of like you just did. What you just did in your rant (and I LOVE me a good rant), was burn the confusion and fog right off their cover. But it’s not for them . . . it’s not for those who refuse to acknowledge or see the truth. Forget them. What you’re doing is for the others of us who are still sitting in that box of silence feeling like nobody is ever going to see us for who we are, and not what we’ve been told we are by others. It gives those silent ones lost in the dark by themselves a light to grab ahold of and lead them back to themselves.

    The ones who really need to hear and read what you wrote in this post, are the ones trying to fight for themselves exactly like you are. And you’re rarely going to hear from them. It’s easy to start forgetting that they’re even out there because they have been silenced so thoroughly.

    I know you’re totally not interested in fixing anyone . . . which I 100% agree with. But I would request that you become more aware that the ones who actually need your words, are the ones who don’t yet have their own voices in which to speak up and say something to you. You don’t need to fix them . . . but maybe just remember them. See them and give them attention instead of the derps who are more interested in being a victim than in doing something about it.

    (1st house, Mars, Aries) Peace Out 😉

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    1. I’ve deleted myself off the internet before, not that many Moons ago. It’s a Sun/Pluto 5th/1st house thing. That was the right decision then, this time it’s not, but the urge is there and if I acknowledge it then it is less likely to happen. Never say never because that acts like a curse and a challenge for me 😉

      The rant was a Mars/Moon 3rd/12th house thing, with a dollop of Chiron and a dash of transiting Jupiter opp natal Sun (which is being hit by transiting Pluto conjuncting it).

      You helped me with this one. The activist view of Aquarian/Urananian energy snapped me out of falling into a trap. So thank you very much – I needed a zap of Aries boldness (I have Saturn in Aries natally and it squares my Sun so… ugh sometimes and I need an oomph to kick the embering fire into flames 😀

      I am very into the living my life in a raw, authentic and open way. If someone is inspired by it, can see their own story in it and their own urge to shout or rant or just break their own silence, then I love that they find that through me.

      I hate lectures and don’t want to give them. I hate advice givers, not their words which are sometimes useful, but their attitude – talk to me as an equal not some person who is flawed and inferior and needs fixing. Tell me what you think, be brazen. Don’t tell me who I should be, become, or what I should do according to you who knows it all and is perfect. Mars in Scorpio always turns what people say to me about me back onto them and then digs into them to see what is hiding under that faux superiority. I’m making myself sound really bad here 😉

      My main problem was that I write my blog for myself, if others find something in my words that’s a wonderful bonus. I was losing myself a bit, my bad, my fault, and since it is my fault I can solve my problem!

      The thing which set off the rant… well… the rant helped clear the air for me to me 😀

      Thank you for the Mars/Aries/1st kick up the butt with inspiring fire 😀

      Like

      1. Pffft, anytime. Need a kick up the ass, call me. (But first, what did I do?)

        I’m counting my lucky stars for the universe dropping you on my head. Reading your reply sparked something off in me that resulted in my blog post for today. Of course, I come back here to respond and I can’t remember what I originally wanted to say . . . but oh well.

        Oh! Something just came back to me (you didn’t see it, but I was sitting here for awhile with the dumbest spaced out look on my face trying to will my memory back to me). When I first wrote the initial comment in response to this post . . . I was most definitely in my Aries/Mars/1st house mode. If anyone had seen me while I was writing it, they would’ve seen my head engulfed in flames.

        When I’m in that space . . . I know I’m being me unapologetically. I’m in my element. I’m opened up, on full dial, and I’m just letting shit come through unfiltered from where ever awesome Aries thoughts come from. It comes in fast and furious. There is no time to stop and contemplate the consequences. I know within me, what comes out and how it comes out, is how it NEEDS to come out. If I attempt to get in its way at all, it ends the flow and information as if to say, “Oh, you think you know better . . . fine, you do it then.” While in that space, I also know that I have nothing to be sorry for in regards to what I’m saying. I see all kinds of connections and understanding from the meta to the micro and why it’s coming out like it is.

        But what I *don’t* know . . . is how or why it affected the other person like it did. That’s a total and complete blank for me.

        Because typically after I’ve had my Aries moment, there is the usual aftermath. The Pluto conjunct my descendant in opposition to my Aries Everything says, “Nope. Bitch you gonna die for that.” At which point, I’m running and screaming in a panic for my life and cursing my Aries for its existence.

        So, I’ve rarely had the opportunity in the eternal running for my life, to stop and ask a Pluto individual . . . “What did I do?” in order to start filling in those blanks for myself.

        I need reflection from others to see myself. I can see my dark side, because Pluto has no problems yelling *that* at me while chasing me down to kill me . . . but I would love to understand something I did “light”. (excuse the pun. okay don’t. hate it. I want you to hate on that pun with all that’s holy within you.)

        You said I helped you with this one, and mentioned Uranus/Aries boldness . . . but . . . seriously . . . what did I do and why aren’t you trying to kill me? 😀 {lacing up running shoes just in case}

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        1. Okay, I almost peed myself laughing and enjoyed the warmth 😀

          I can relate to a lot of what you said about yourself. I also get seized with passion and have to let myself go with it, or pay the fine for fighting it, that’s Mars in Scorpio in the 3rd, it aspects my Merc, Moon and Asc so there’s a lot of emotional and mental intensity going on and it shows. Only Pluto doesn’t usually try and kill me – It only kills me when it’s time for a rebirth of self – it usually wants me to kill someone else 😉 That’s the chart placement flip. But Pluto never wants me to kill those who are bold, because we (Pluto/Uranus and Mars in Scorpio and a bunch of others that make up me/we/whatever) respect and love boldness – Tell me what you really think, not what you think I want to hear, you have no idea what I really want to hear if you think you can cater to it…

          Which reminds me… Awesome post!!! LOVED IT!

          What I really want to hear… someone being themselves, letting it all out and hang out with me being myself. You as you are – Beautiful! No killing applied 😀 but encouragement definitely applied.

          To explain exactly how what you said had such a dynamic ass-kicking effect on me, which I loved and needed, I’d have to explain how I think, or how I arrange my thoughts. Which… the best I can come up with tonight (it’s 4am)… it’s like a big bowl of soup with croutons arranged in a grid in it. The croutons are waiting for something to connect them all. You gave me that something which connected all these separate thoughts and they coalesced into a whole piece of bread. I know… not the best explanation. At the moment Neptune (in the 3rd) is in charge of stuff and… blur.

          It’s interesting that you mention needing a reflection. My moon is conjunct my ascendant. I have always experienced myself as a mirror for others. I know who I am, now anyway (age helps with that one and the mid-life crisis transits). Actually I’ve always known who I am, just had a struggle with who others thought I was. That problem still exists, I’m just handling it differently. I got very lost between who I knew I was and who others were certain I was. Looooong story. I think many people experience something similar, it’s part of the process of giving birth to ourselves I guess.

          So. I am a mirror in many ways. What you see when you look at me, that’s you. If you see something good, inspiring, wonderful – that’s you. If you see something bad, depressing, awful – that’s you.

          I’ve simplified it of course. Some of what people see is me, but some of it is them. But that’s complicated.

          So, a test/game/thought thingy for you – think about what your impression of me is, who you see when you ‘look’ (read my stuff – post/comment) at me. Is that really me or is it you.

          Perhaps it’s both of us sharing a similarity.

          Projection works negatively and positively. Both.

          Have you ever found your own words, ones which were thoughts you hadn’t been able to form into words yet, in the writings of someone else? The same applies to seeing who you are when you look at someone else. There’s a certain feeling which goes with it, an AHA of sorts. It’s easier to do with words, harder to do with identity and people.

          Time for sleep. If you want more precision let me know 🙂

          Like

          1. This totally helped. Plus, you used food to describe it. My Taurus Mercury says, “yum”. I can relate to what you were saying. I use puzzle piece analogies. I have puzzle pieces strung out all over, and as I’m reading or listening to someone, I let them naturally arrange themselves until a fuller picture emerges and then I “get” it. But I’m seriously contemplating changing my analogy to one of food because . . . oh nevermind, all it’s doing is making me hungry. {crunching on a pretzel}

            So your moon in the 12th conjunct your ascendant . . . so I’m curious how your moon is for you personally. It’s in Virgo in a Pisces house. But it’s still a moon in the 12th (I’m also wondering about similarities between that and my Neptune/Moon conjunction) . . . and being close to your ascendant, it’s also coloring your perception of the world. Are you mostly comfortable when you’re tucked away safely from the world? Does it make it harder or easier for you to connect with others emotionally? I think maybe what I’m asking there is . . . { t h i n k i n g} is it difficult to let your guard around people . . . or do you let it down too easily? With your Pluto/Uranus mix in the 1st house . . . (OH! that just reminded me that you gave a link to your chart . . . I have to go see!!! AFTER I finish the comment . . . I don’t want to lose another one) I’m not able to reconcile all of the conflicting things going on there, to *see* how that might show up in a person. It’s a big pile of spaghetti noodles in my head. (<—oh! look at that . . . a food reference with zero effort. My Taurus just took that and ran with it.)

            And the mirror thingy . . . I've thought about it in regard to my Jupiter/Sun Gemini. I naturally mimic. Gemini being our elementary school years, children learn by mimicking others around them to try it out. They like to play pretend (I'm a doctor, I'm a teacher, etc.). So I often find myself parroting or doing something I saw someone else do without even thinking about it, because I want to know what it is like. Just like a kid. However . . . I also used it as a type of defense and as a way to become invisible and not stand out. Not consciously . . . I'm only recently conscious that I do it. I almost shape-shift to match the style of whoever I'm interacting with. (Actually, *now* I'm learning to just have all of myself present and use what is needed for each moment, instead of using it to blend in with everything.) It can make me seem like I'm inconsistent, or even superficial, or even like someone doesn't really know which one of those things are "me".

            But all I'm actually doing, is grabbing the pieces of me that are similar or match the person I'm interacting with, and bring those to the forefront while I interact with them. But the part that gets confusing there, is that I am in effect . . . mirroring them back to themselves. So when I do the same things as them and they get so ANGRY with me, then I would say, "yeah, but you do that" and would tell them how (thanks Aries), not to prove myself right but because I really had no idea what was going on. I thought they *knew* they did that . . . I didn't know I was giving them a newsflash about themselves.

            So for *your* mirror thingy . . . since your moon is ruled by Mercury like Gemini, I'm also curious in that respect, of how it's similar or different. Or is it something similar shared between Virgo/Gemini? Btw, I'm never expecting my specific questions to be answered, I use questions to help further elaborate on what's going on in my head to give a general idea of why I'm asking about something. So feel free to answer as much, as little, or in any way you wish. (<– I know you will, you sassy little Mars in Scorpio in 3rd house, but just wanting to say that out in the open so as to not just assume you or anyone else knows that about me.)

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            1. Yes, the 12th house Virgo Moon prefers to be solitary. The emotional connection thing is tricky, because that kind of a Moon (especially with its aspects that heighten the Neptune/Pisces energy) tends to absorb sensory data. I always know what those around me are feeling, and I can pick up the emotions of others through distance and other types of communication. People leak information through ever pore. So I often put aside my own feelings for later when I’m alone, partly because it takes me a while to know my own feelings, they can be vague impressions and take an age to focus, and partly because I detach from myself when I’m around other people as it makes it easier to get to know them if I’m not getting in the way. It’s hard to hear what someone else is saying if your mind is talking and thinking about yourself, so I switch myself off. Which is fine until someone asks me a personal question, that always throws me… unless I realise that they’re only asking about me to lead into something about themselves.

              You can see the Virgo in my words… I analyse the dynamics of interactions. The mimicry technique you mentioned is a natural human social skill. We all (nearly all) do it. It’s a learning curve for children, exactly as you pointed out. For adults it is a diplomatic skill designed to support communication. Using similar words, or tone, body language, etc, all done to improve the interaction. You’ve noticed it in yourself, have you noticed other people doing it with you? Almost everyone does it. It is sometimes a power game with those who study it consciously – world leaders, politicians, lawyers, etc.

              As you can see I’m answering your question without really answering it. Something I do all the time. I deflect from myself. It’s sort of a defense, I am more secretive than I may seem, but it’s more practical than a defense mechanism – those can be hindrances – it’s cutting to the chase. I talk to myself about myself – those conversations are what go into many of my posts – so I don’t really need to discuss myself with others, and unless someone really needs to know something, well, I find talking about myself to others boring because in my head I’m thinking – I already know all of this about myself, it’s repetitive blah blah, I’m boring myself, I’d rather hear about the other person, now they are interesting!

              So I tend to be rather blank around others, which makes me a mirror. There is someone behind the mirror, it’s one of those two-way mirrors 😉

              Also when I talk about myself there is always a part of me analysing my words wondering if they’re true, sometimes it sounds like BS and I need time to review the ‘I Am’ statements I’m making. Maybe it was true and is not longer applicable because something caused a shift to happen and I’ve changed since it was true. I’m a bit amorphous on the surface, underneath I have a core self, but with the Pluto/Uranus 1st thing you change a lot. You realise something needs changing or life changes you, the core is solid but the rest is flexible. I mean if an attitude I have is shit, it needs to change, and things usually prompt me to change. Like right now, life is forcing me to change rather dramatically 😀 Kind of like what’s happening with you!

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              1. Thanks! I can relate and recognize much of what you mentioned. My turtle (<– non-carnivorous) is munching on the information with an upward contemplative look in his eyes.

                Btw, you had me laughing so hard in your comment where you launched from ending one paragraph about mind-effing . . . into "I like turtles" . . . and *then* your hilarious story! That totally tickled my funny bone.

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                1. 😀 I can’t multi-task to save my life, but I’m a multi-tasking-thinker, loads of conversations and thoughts going on at the same time. It makes sense to me, just not always when I communicate. My partner luckily thinks it’s hilarious. I can be discussing the serious issue of what topping to have on my pizza, then suddenly I’m launching into Nordic mythology, and recalling the time I peed my pants in history class. When you gotta go… it can seem disconnected, but somewhere there’s a tangential connection.

                  While I was writing, I was having a convo in my head about turtles, and then it popped out 😉

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        2. I wrote this rambling comment on your latest post which I have somehow managed to delete or something clutz-like… and of course I can’t remember what I said, which is probably for the best, when stuff like that happens I see it as life telling me ‘NO!’.

          Anyway the gist of it was…

          Have you been to this blog and read this post – http://beyondthestarsastrology.wordpress.com/2011/01/19/the-7th-house-the-shadow-self/

          And have you read The Twelve Houses by Howard Sasportas (my fav astro book along with Jeff Green’s Pluto book) – especially his take on Saturn in the 5th as your Saturn is a focal point in your chart (as in lots of aspects converging there in the creative self-expression zone).

          “Those with Saturn in the 5th have difficulty freely expressing their individuality and personal creativity. They desperately want to be loved for their specialness and originality and yet feel that it is precisely their differences which will put others off. What’s gone wrong?

          For one reason or another, they have had ‘the playful child’ inside of them rebuffed.” – Howard Sasportas – The Twelve Houses.

          Those are the relevant bits, the rest was just me talking saying how many synchronicities we have even though our charts are different (my chart can be found at the bottom of my blog in – Categories – My Astrological Chart).

          🙂

          ps. Have you seen this, not my post but the image used in it on which the post is based (I think you might find it funny) – https://anupturnedsoul.wordpress.com/2013/06/14/flipping-astrology-nsfw-or-those-who-are-offended-by-swearing/

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          1. OMG . . . I had a reply all typed out . . . and then I clicked a link in your comment and lost *my* reply. LOL

            Bah!

            I was saying that I had just now read your 2nd comment regarding the 5th house, and that was after my recent post talking about how my Saturn in 5th was getting knocked all over the last 24 hours. As of right now, transiting Uranus is only 2 minutes from exact conjunct from my ascendant. I feel like Uranus is acting like an eye of a needle, and that everything that I’ve worked so hard on up till now, is about to start being birthed into this existence. Kind of like using Saturn to pull it all into reality. (Which . . using Koch house system, I have Capricorn MC . . . look for Saturn in my chart to see how that will play out . . . in my 5th house/Leo . . . the cusp of my 5th house is cancer . . . look for moon in chart . . . Neptune/Moon conjunction in opposition to Sun/Jupiter . . . . well you get the point.

            The last 24 hours has had so much weird and crazy happen . . . and all of it amazing. I can feel all of those things connected to Saturn going on and coming through and unwrapping . . . whew. But keeping steady. Besides Saturn . . . I’m thankful for my Mercury Taurus. It keeps me steady. Despite the wicked fast things in my chart, I actually have to slow way down in order to respond or communicate because of it. So that’s why it can take me days to reply back on anything . . . my Taurus Mercury is s l o w . . . It’s like I have rocket jets being led by a turtle. A turtle who doesn’t give a fuck how anxious those rockets are to get somewhere. You go his speed, or nowhere at all.

            I loved the image you linked . . . Sagittarius . . . Awkward Fucktard LOL! OMG yes. Okay . . . pushing my turtle to the next thing. kthxbye. 😉

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            1. I think transiting Uranus is interacting with Mars in Libra at the moment, and I was reading something about Eris getting into the mix, but I was reading Merc in Aqua style – I usually have at least 5 browser tabs open and flip through them reading too many things at once – so it’s very energetic and zappy in a everything happening at the same time kind of way. I got some news at the weekend which changes my life, again, and it’s on top of everything else which is already changing my life. I had a moment of going – crap, couldn’t this have waited a few months, it’s not practical for it to happen now – then I went – Eff it! Might as well all happen now, what’s a little more chaos at this point, if the pot boils over… *shrug. I’ll clean it up later (never maybe).

              I used to look at my natal chart in a typical Virgo way thinking it was a bit off and would work better if a couple of placements changed. My natal Sat squares my Sun and annoys the hell out of me because it curbs my creative enthusiasm almost killing it. Then, after hating my chart for a long spell thinking the universe had messed up with it, I realised it was copacetic, that it was my thinking which needed shifting not the placements of my chart.

              So, your Merc in Tau is perfect as it helps to stabilise and channel all that wonderful energy in your chart, just like you said, it takes all the super fast genius and makes it practical and usable genius.

              OH! The replying thing… sigh… I’m a blurry brained airhead so I don’t tend to notice certain things which are time related, my sense of time is very Doctor Who, I’ve had to train myself to reply to people as soon as possible or I forget completely until I remember several years later. On blog comments people don’t mind so much if you’re slow to reply or reply at all, because everyone is busy, so they comment and run. It does depend on the type of comment though, if a question is asked then an answer is usually wanted. I’m actually quicker at replying to comments than I am to emails and other correspondence thingies.

              I know I have gobs of Virgo but I don’t tend to apply it to other people, just to myself, unless they ask me to or unless the other person is a Narcissist, then the analysis kicks in and is done to the other. With Narcissists it is vital to dissect them and everything they say or they mind eff you. 😉

              I like turtles… although I once was sitting by a small swamp contemplating the beauty of the place and felt the eerie feeling of being watched, so I turned around and there were about 50 heads just above the surface of the swamp and they were converging on me – apparently the locals fed these swamp turtles. I didn’t have any food, so I ran away in case they were carnivorous turtles 😀

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          2. Okay, another reply – I was looking at your chart (awwww hellll) . . . visuals help me so much. You have Venus in Pisces, and Pisces on 7th house cusp. Soooo (this will most likely touch upon your moon stuff in the 12th and Neptune in Scorpio in the 3rd) . . . my ex (broke up in November) has Neptune/Venus in his 7th (conjunct my own Neptune/moon), and a lot of other pisces type stuff going on, and something that we struggled with in the relationship, was the projected illusions (big old duh) and the “extension of self” going on there. It’s a big part of why I’m so super bent on boundaries and clarity between people, because it can get foggy real fast in Neptunian waters. My moon/Neptune has it constantly coming and going . . . I tend to idealize people . . . people tend to see some unreal person in me. They pick a costume they like, and they throw it on me to wear for them. Between that and my shape-shifting ways . . . it’s no wonder I get lost regarding who I am.

            As soon as I let down my guard and get comfy . . . I start to blur between myself and others. They’ll say something about me that isn’t *quite* true for me, but I’m like sitting in a Jacuzzi and relaxed (like . . . stoned-relaxed), so I’m like “eh. not really true . . . but no bigs.” Except months later I wake up from my Jacuzzi nap and the water’s gone cold and I have NO idea what’s happened and where I’ve been all the months in-between. So, of course, I see your Venus in Pisces and your descendant in Pisces and something in me went O.O “Clear your head, Jenn . . . snap out of it! Get out of the hot tub!”

            Not in response to you, but in an effort to keep myself alert and not drift off into my typical jacuzzi dreamland when I get comfy around someone. {grabs some toothpicks to keep eyelids propped open and for added discomfort}

            I’m sharing with you, because it helps when both are aware of the potential to drift into la-la land instead of just one.

            So you said that you have always been clear about yourself, but the difficulty came in who others thought you were (feel free to put your Virgo-essence to good use and get super technical nit-picky on me here . . . if I’m not quite getting or saying what you were trying to communicate . . . I would really like to know. . . I need Virgo clarity in these instances).

            I love that your Pluto/Uranus (and Jupiter) are all good buddies in (near) your first house. That’s awesome. Especially the Virgo area. Because I feel you’ll have some personal insight into something my ex was clueless about, because he didn’t have the benefit of those things in his first house.

            With my ex, he got this *picture* of me in his head about who I was. It was, basically *only* my Neptune Moon . . . like the rest of me didn’t exist. Anytime I strayed outside of Neptune/Moon territory, he would stop responding to me. So if I went into Aries . . . he would subtly not respond in ways that passively or subconsciously let me know that he didn’t approve of it. Since we were in a relationship, of course I want his approval/attention, so I would adapt . . . adjust. It’s so fluid and natural with me, I almost can’t see that I’m doing it (and why I’m trying to stay very alert).

            This is why I need lots of breaks from people and time alone, so that I can call myself back into awareness. It’s not a big deal at first because I’m used to shifting like that . . . but in an intimate relationship, and in this last one in particular . . . he only wanted me to stay frozen as this one thing. Only as Neptune Moon. (But neither he, nor I was aware that this was happening at the time.) So the rest of what makes up me, started to fade away into the distance. It didn’t feel okay to have an outburst of emotion, or to break into song . . . or to dance . . . or to *appear* less than perfect/civil (not because he *did* anything or threaten…mostly the complete lack of response. Over time, I just started to feel ridiculous doing/being those things around him because he was so repressed in movement with those things in himself. It’s too hard for me to be open and moving, if I’m always around someone who is still and contained. I felt like . . . . oh. I felt like I was acting childish/immature around him when I did that. Ok . . . that just explained a lot to myself.

            It’s actually kind of nice to be able to see how that happened. {re-strengthening my resolve to keep clear in who I am and to continue to be that . . . continue to be ridiculous Jenn . . . continue to be ridiculous . . . continue to be ridiculous AND an awkward fucktard}

            So . . . for you and from your own personal experiences . . . does any of this sound familiar, whether it was from you/towards you, etc.? I ask mostly because any insight or lessons learned would be greatly valued/appreciated. We have a lot of similarities, with the unique situation of having come through it from other directions/angles. SUPER valuable in helping with seeing blind spots.

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            1. I can really relate to your share Jennifer. I have Venus square Neptune in the seventh and third house. I was reading that the narcissist doesn’t fall in love with the person but with an image of what they want the person to be. A while ago I read a book was written by a woman called Patricia Evans who has written a lot of books on emotional abuse. This particular one is called Controlling People and in it she explains this dynamic where some will only relate to you if you are a certain way that they find acceptable. the other parts of you they cant accept they discount or erase…they don’t want a relationship with the real you as it threatens them… Its very complex and I’m sue I too have been guilty of it at times. I am always intrigued by how synastry contacts between charts can play out in this way. ..as you may find a certain person turning up when a planet transits something significant in your chart and then it sets up all the dynamics….Sound like in your case he couldn’t tolerate the separateness of those parts of you ..anyway what you wrote is really interesting, thanks for sharing it.

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              1. Oh and because they want you to be that way they can also shame you for expressing all the feelings they are too scared to face.

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            2. I can definitely relate to a lot of what you said. It’s a very similar experience only with different natal chart culprits at play. I also use the talking it through to figure it out, my earlier posts on astrology, I made huge mistakes with my interpretations, I was there but not quite there, and it helped me to get there… still finding new perspectives which erase old perspectives.

              When I was younger I used to lose myself all the time. I knew who I was but who I was always seemed wrong (Saturn square Sun). I felt everyone else was right and I tried to change myself to who they seemed to think was the right person to be. I did this in one on one situations and with society. Society just never stops criticising me and telling me I’m shit as is! <— (stealing the arrow idea from you) That is Pluto/Uranus in the 1st with Pluto trine Sun and Sun squared by Saturn. So when I feel the pinch from Saturn on my Sun, the pain of the Sun in the 5th feeling the hostility of the world against my creative self-expression of me as is, moves along the trine line to Pluto who gets pissed off and wants to kill other people for hurting me, hurting me mostly by making me want to kill myself because my existence bothers other people. Pluto is primal survival instinct, and it's very protective of me (trine Sun and 1st placement). So Pluto then stirs up the conjunction with Uranus demanding help dealing with the oppression of self. Uranus gets all activist, amplified by Jupiter in conjunction, and since Jupiter is in the 2nd house of personal values… recipe for radical rebellion which often means I break free in a dramatic way and surprise everyone who thought I was a reserved Virgo rising and a soft (Venus in Pisces) easily pushed around idiot (Nep in 3rd). Then Mars gets in the mix triggering my aggressive side (Mars pings off my Merc and Moon and Asc (ass). And the motions my Moon was keeping quiet and private erupt like a geyser.

              But when I lose my laid back cool, it feels more dramatic on the inside than it actually looks on the outside. On the outside I get the Pluto death-stare eyes and say – No – very definitely. So, Virgo rising is still being reserved. I don't actually want to kill or hurt anyone, but I can taste blood and it tastes delicious so don't mess with me. I let you get away with a lot of shit because I'm lazy and very human and I know you're very human too, so slack is cut and it's long… did I mention I'm lazy… so yeah, if I have to get up I'm going to make it worth my while 😉

              I'm sort of Incredible Hulk-ish. But a very chilled version (at least I think so). Other people have other views, not my business or problem anymore unless they force it to be my business and problem. Then THUMP – this is me – don't like it, you don't need to, do yourself a solid and go away, there is no reason for you to know me.

              Does that go with your Aries in anyway? Oh, btw, I switch writing style depending on how I'm talking in my head – I talk-write – I wasn't directing those words at you. I know I don't need to say it, saying it anyway. Didn't need to say that last bit either… okay I could get stuck in a loop here.

              So at some point I went – Eff it! If who I am as is is wrong, and who I try to be to please others is never good enough and they want me to try harder and lose myself for them, and that makes me feel like there's no point in being alive as someone else could do me better, and why the Eff doesn't this person go and find someone who is the person who they want me to fit into and be for them… well, I'll just be myself openly, and that'll clear up this mess. Those who like me as is, well… Hello! and so on… and those who don't… Please stay away, I'm not good for you, never will be, thank you, goodbye, have a nice life without me in it!

              Age has done me a huge favour! Hitting 40 made me more aware of my mortality and less prone to wasting my own mortal time being a complete idiot in relationships.

              I have to say that my very Virgo with a big dose of Scorpio partner helped me immensely to sort myself out. He encouraged me to just be me, and be all of me. Since I know he can handle me full on, volume at max, and that those times when it's too much he just says it's too much, but doesn't expect me to change for him. He just says I'm off to do my own thing and I go off to do mine. Intimate relationships need a balance of time with loved one and time with yourself. The formula for relationships needs the individual to be an individual, but also to merge and be a unit. It's ME/YOU/US. It takes much mess to get the formula to work 😉

              My Virgo doesn't need to butt in, you've got yourself sussed. Definitely a good idea to explore the oppositions in your chart, they hold treasures. Now where did I read that gorgeous bit of advice on how to work with an opposition!?! It's something to do with finding a sweet spot between the opposing sides, but also realising how each side has a point, it's just sometimes they work/pull against each other like in tug of war, but they can also work as a team somehow if the opposing sides want to do so.

              So your Moon/Nep and your Sun/Jup is a source of creative friction which yields both positive and negative inspiration. You need to check out the blue lines and see where they connect the opposition in a harmonious way. That gives a clue to how the opp can work together to a common goal.

              Tell me this, or tell yourself this… what drew you to your ex, and what was the gift in the relationship for you. Sometimes we forget the good parts when the bad parts focus all our attention on them. We sometimes learn more from the bad bits, because painful lessons are easier to learn as they hurt and we remember them because of the pain. But they're one side of a whole. SO what were the 'right' 'good' things in the relationship?

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              1. I loved how you went through your chart like a stack of dominoes following cause/reaction down the chain. And you totally had me laughing at your descriptions. I can relate to the way you write, and so I totally follow what you mean when you suddenly go into the things you are saying to yourself in your head, but out loud to us (your talk-write). It makes it feel like we’re sitting together in person, and I imagine all kinds of hand gestures going on as you get carried away in describing things, and it makes me laugh to see you all caught up in the story.

                Reading the part about how you know your partner can handle all of you full on . . . that was inspiring to me. In fact, reading all of this triggered a ball of info within myself of stuff I had forgotten about (while I was in my last relationship) . . . which THEN inspired a blog post that just came rolling out (and of course I had to write it the second I got near a computer before it left me again . . . and THEN I was too turtle pooped to come back here to respond to what you said . . . so to rest my weary body, I instead went home . . . plopped on the couch and watched a few episodes of a Korean drama series on Netflix that I’m totally hooked on like nobody’s business.

                All of the little things you mentioned kept triggering more and more stuff that I had “lost” or forgotten about myself and it kind of snowballed on me. The oppositions, finding the sweet-spot between the two, and then asking about what drew me to my ex. It was like explosion {realization} explosion {realization} pew pew pew pew pew pew connections and lasers ricocheting, connecting, and sparking understandings and memories back to life all up in my head.

                It was exhausting. When everything in my chart starts working together as a single unit, I have access to vasts amount of knowledge. I *know* so much at once . . . but when any of those things in my chart disconnect either from over exertion, feeling insecure, making myself small, etc. then I lose that mega data connection, and I don’t know or remember much of anything. I just walk around looking clueless and like a pitiful little retarded kitten.

                Hence the “I don’t know, I don’t understand” sudden switch to “omg, I know aaaaaaaaallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll of this over here.” Uranus has not been making that easy either. And my turtle. My poor little fried out mercury turtle. He’s in a fetal position inside his shell crying his little eyeballs out to make it all stop. At least until he can catch up to all the data being run through him and can feel *good* about it. (Poor little fellar.)

                And THEN, reading a comment from the post yesterday from astrologerpeg, got me in a silly weird mood and suddenly I’m in Wonder Women underoos, streaking through the post (that I had already written) being extra ridiculous . . . and lightening the post up considerably (omg I had not realize how serious I had gotten in it. Over.the.top.)

                So, that was my little adventure launched from the point of reading your comments to now. It call all action-hero-ie (no doubt your image of the incredible hulk had something to do with that) 😀

                I have a feeling more Korean soap operas are in my near future.

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                1. I love interacting with you! I can be all over the place and that’s okay because you get it or just tell me that I’m all over the place, know what I mean 😀

                  First (trying to sort through loads of conversations I’m having with you in my mind) – Hi, I’m Ursula, I’m a Netflix/Lovefilm addict… please tell me the name of this series!!!!? I’m in the UK so I think there are differences of what’s on, but still, I have other ways of getting TV series 😉

                  I love Asian film in an inappropriate way! I’m a Cyborg, but that’s OK <– best film ever!!!!!

                  Okay, wait… High Plains Drifter will always be my first best film ever but… time to back away from something which may turn into an inner argument (Mars square Merc).

                  Love them both equally! (thank you…is it Jup in Libra?)

                  I got a bit sloppy according to my Virgo rising with the following of energy flowing along aspect lines (that Nep in 3rd gets sloppy) in my chart. I could have been so much more precise, however… chill dude, I was contemplating turtles and how cool they are (Merc in Aqua) I mean they're like pre-historic and stuff so… respect 'cause they were here before us, they'll outlast us all and they do it with style!

                  Learning to follow the energy of your placements along the aspect lines is very intriguing and revealing. There are loads of people who have the same placements (especially if you explore the searching by multiple astro criteria of http://www.astrotheme.com/) so what makes your chart different… the aspect lines! How they placements interact and how the energy flows.

                  Such as we both have Uranus aspecting Mercury – that's the mind on lighthning, but mine is blue and yours is red. So the dynamic is buzzing, the mind is being zapped differently. Then there are houses and such (that's sloppy… chill Virgo).

                  I thought your post was superb… and I should be putting this in a comment on your post… I had several multiple thoughts about it. I'll go over to the post and put them there. Here's the thing, I'm bold in my comments/replies on my blog because it's my territah! But I get timid (Virgo Moon/rising) when commenting on other blogs. I don't want to bring the crazy there… here's okay… but there… (Chiron/NN in 7th vs Pluto/Uranus(amplified by over enthusiatic Jup which is in 2nd but cusping stuff) in 1st).

                  So, I'm coming over… brace yourself… use the 'comment edit' feature if you need to 😉

                  Of course I may forget what I was going to say… I love reading other comments 😀

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                  1. LOL . . . so fun 😀 I’m ONLY poking my head out of my shell to tell you the name of the TV series (because it’s currently on pause on my TV and it’s too awesome to *not* share that information with a fellow Netflix addict who ALSO loves Asian films in an appropriate way (<— hysterical).

                    It's called "The Great Queen Seondeck." I can't say exactly all the different things it sets off in ways that no TV show ever has before (including popular US shows) . . . but something draws me to it, and it . . . ack. stop . . . just stop talking Jenn. Hopefully you have easy access to it, then maybe you'll know what I mean. It's like I'm sitting with family or people I know or remember? I don't know, but it makes me feel comfy and at home (even when they're fighting . . . awww . . memories. {sigh} )

                    I understand the ease of being all open on your own site, but more reserved on other's sites. Feel free to get comfy! I'm hoping to shape the feeling of a space on my site where people do feel okay in being bold over there. The only time I'm going to but a "shhhh" on it is when . . . hmmm how do I explain this? I feel my way. Sometimes, someone *appears* to be thoughtful or "nice" but there is this feeling in me that just says there is no fluffing way I'm going to let that energy start leaking in here and poisoning stuff.

                    Saying that, I'm still open to them having an opportunity to try again if they want to check their attitude at the door . . . because yes, we all have bad days. But in the end, I knowz my energies . . . and if I don't like it . . . itz gotz ta go! I don't need a justified reason. LOL, like you said "it's my territah!"

                    Oh dang nabbit . . . I said ONLY to tell you the TV series name . . . now look at me! Gemini! Go straight to your room, you need to ground. {awwww, mom!} March! {mumble mumble mumble}

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                    1. *inappropriate . . . in an Inappropriate way . . . Asian films. Sorry. I could feel the Virgo-essence raise it’s eyebrow in disapproval of me. I cracked under pressure and had to correct. Ok. Back into my shell to watch my show in unashamed delight.

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                    2. No… that Virgo-essence raising eyebrow thing with disapproval of you… ain’t me. I can raise one eyebrow but not in a disapproving way. It’s impossible to disapprove of anyone when you’re as aware of your own shit as I kind of am. Awareness of my own shit is in my personal daily RSS feed.

                      Been having a lot more of it lately… causing changes.

                      I only raise that eyebrow when someone does that holier than though disapprove BS to me – Oh Really!?! – I think, eyebrow goes up, then laser beams check the purity of the blemishless person and realise it’s just another human pretending to be super human because they’re afraid of their flaws, so they thought they’d look down on mine… look elsewhere ’cause this mirror is a funhouse one.

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                    3. Thank you! I don’t think my Netflix has it… but there are other ways of getting it. I’m going to internet check it out.

                      I’m fairly open to whatever people want to share in comments on my posts. Still, I’m relieved to have the WP blog powers in case I need to use them. I try not to censor self-expression in others ’cause I don’t like it done to me. But I have deleted a couple of comments. One was a troll, another was a comment by a commenter who is usually aware and respectful, but they slipped up (we all do that), it was directed at another commenter and was insensitive.

                      Other than that… if I dish it I can take it, I don’t dish what I can’t take – survival 101 😉 although I am prone to self-destruction.

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    2. Hi Jennifer, thank you for writing the way you do, today I sent your post to a friend who was aching due to the fact that she felt she became what people said she was..my issue too! Thank you, it was very well expressed and explained.We both feel you helped us out! seashell

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      1. Hi seashell,

        Thank you for taking time to let me know. I’m sitting here with all kinds of things going through my head that I want to say, but none of it feels like it’s actually touching on what I really want to say. The closest I can come to it, is to say that it means a lot to me that you found something that might help . . . and that it was something I had shared . . . and that it meant enough to you that you wanted to share it with a friend . . . it really touches something in me. (This is the kind of stuff that starts coming out of my mouth when I try to push my Mercury Taurus faster than it wants to go 🙂 ).

        It makes me feel happy in a deep, tearful way that you took the time to let me know how I affected you. Thank you.

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  16. I think it’s probably common for people who’ve been through it to wonder about the disorder’s origins, along with examining why they attracted that type of person into their life.

    Contemplating the origins doesn’t necessarily mean they hold steadfastly to that thought as a belief. It’s just part of the learning curve and could also be a tool for the person who came out of it to understand themselves more and their own part/accountability in what happened.

    Misunderstandings may happen along the way, but sometimes those are cleared up…which can include realizing the idea one was developing wasn’t entirely accurate because another person more familiar with the topic shared their insight with you…

    Maybe someone who originally wondered if Narcissists were born that way came to a different conclusion after reading your posts and interacting with you.

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    1. Absolutely, discovering the origins is a part of the process of understanding the whole and seeing beyond the part which you experienced. I have no problem with people questioning, it’s the bit where people are looking for a ‘magic’ answer and stop looking and questioning and seeking to understand which rubs me the wrong way.

      Each Narcissist is different, they’re a person, albeit a very stuck in their past damage and sharing that with everyone whose lives they touch person.

      Every Narcissist though will tell you exactly who they are and how they became who they are. What caused the NPD. You just have to hear it.

      You are seeking to understand, and I see that and admire it. This was in no way directed at the question which you asked the other day, that was a good question and I know why you asked it, you are right to ask it and explore it and find your own answers. It hit upon something I was already fuming about, I read something glaringly NPD disguised as victim of NPD. It was so openly NPD, plus some added extras which made it more gut-wrenching when I saw people praising and encouraging this person’s NPD, feeding delicious N supply, and… basically abusing themselves by doing so and colluding without realising it with the N against the real victim. I really want to expose this person but that is such a self-destructive idea. They’re the type of Narcissist that will attack and do it very viciously, and I will have to delete myself off the internet. That’s why I have to scale back on writing about, this is not my cause and I am not an activist on an N witch hunt. I started writing about it to clarify my own confusion. That is that.

      It did help me to understand why non-Narcissists find Narcissists so attractive though, it clarified the dynamic more. It also showed me something else – Narcissists warn their victims, so in a twisted way they are right about us asking to be abused by them. That doesn’t make the abuse right in any way at all. But I now see that their contempt is sickeningly justified. If we let them treat us this way and ask for more by encouraging them, they’re right to do it. It makes me nauseous! But it showed me my own pattern in a vivid and raw light.

      Keep doing what you’re doing and follow your instincts.

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      1. Hey Ursula.. that is so true my ex narc said to me before we got involved “be careful, I’ll only fuck you up”. We do stick around and that’s what I don’t get as it means we have a masochistic flaw to our character that needs to be made conscious and we need to examine the way we collude with the abuse…. it can get truly confusing when you know the narcissist was damaged in childhood and you understand that .and being compassionate want help soothe the pain… .. but you cant fix it for them and that is what they expect on some level…. even if its not totally conscious. I do hope you do continue to write about narcissism, at least some of the time because it helps so many people…..you give such peace to people and a safe place to talk about it and work through the painful feelings and confusion. Also do you think its common to question if you are a narcissist at times. I just had a run with my therapist and it was over an attention issue, when I was really sick she would not take my call…..I thought we got through it but last session she said how much I had hurt her by saying how angry I was at not being able to talk to her when I was in need. that made me question… Am I being the narcissist here? The point was I could accept she needed her space but when she tried to make me feel bad for having anger and then dumped an interpretation on me that I didn’t feel was true I stood up to it….I find this kind of encounters hard because even if I feel I am in the right I continually question myself. I did a reality check with another therapist and he said what she had done was wrong..anyways….just sharing it here…. have had computer internet connection issues that were only resolved yesterday…. so haven’t been able to keep up as much with your posts….

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        1. Logical thought is vital when dealing with Narcissists because they are illogical.They present what they say as being not only logical but the only way to look at things. They are inflexible, it’s their way or… there in no other way or version of events or reality.

          And when assessing a situation, reviewing an interaction you have to make note of all the elements – The interaction you had was with your Therapist – thus you expect a therapist to remain level-headed and detached, not bring themselves and their issues into the interaction because you’re paying them not, you’re paying them and asking them through the commitment of money to help you and do so in a helpful way. Surely when you are having distress is exactly when you would contact your therapist to help you, because that’s why you’re going to the therapist, so they can show you how to be healthier in your relationship with yourself and with others.

          And the way your therapist behaved is illogical for a therapist and patient interaction. It is only logical in a relationship between you and a friend.

          Sure the therapist needs their space, but it’s up to the therapist to set the boundaries between their space and your space clearly from the get go and maintain those boundaries in a firm and gentle, guiding manner, because their patient may have unhealthy boundaries and needs help to form healthier ones.

          The therapist/patient relationship is a very particular kind of interaction. To me it sounds like that therapist has unhealthy boundary issues. Her role is to help you to clarify things not make things more confusing for you.

          Here’s the thing, with you I feel very comfortable because I know you won’t take responsibility for my emotions, thus I can express them with you. You’ll let me know if I’ve confused you. You also own your emotions and are aware of yourself. So we can interact as two individuals who aren’t symbiotically linked, which is a wonderful relief and very satisfying. We can share ideas and insights as equals. No role play involved. TFFT!

          And yes, it is more than common, it is a symptom and red flag of being in a relationship with a Narcissist to ask yourself – Am I the Narcissist?

          Narcissists, especially now that NPD is a hot topic, will ask that question too. Only they don’t ask it of themselves personally to be self aware, they don’t experience self-doubt like we do, or the tendency to shoulder the blame. They will ask of others in a very particular way – Am I the Narcissist? – but others are being prompted to answer that question in the same way that all questions Narcissists ask must be answered – catering to their hyper-sensitive ego which will have a tantrum and punish you if you answer incorrectly.

          It’s how the question is asked which shows whether the person who is asking it is doing it genuinely wanting to know or just playing a mind game.

          You other therapist is right, so are you.

          ps. I never expect people to read my posts, and am always surprised when they do. So thank you, truly, and don’t ever worry about keeping up with them. I repeat myself all the time, especially when I’m trying to figure something out, and it can get boring 😉

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          1. Dear Ursula,
            thank you for helping people in distress.
            You gave me the courage to believe I can help too, and just for a change I am proud of myself.i would like to become a therapist, but a real one.I know you hate giving advice and you don’t like authority (neither do I) but what you do is very precious and effective as it comes from your own experience. in spite of what I have lived with my previous shrink I am trusting my new one and I do think it’s a good decision. Good therapy can change things.
            I do not know if my attitude towards my former shrink is due to my IN disorder, but I am sad for him who can’t live emotions freely as he is imprisoned in his cage of control, with the illusion he is controlling others but in reality he’s preventing himself from living;Ns are warped and hurt children as you say, although under the same circumstances we have “decided” otherwise.
            I have been able to read a situation thanks to what I have learnt with you and therefore i haven’t suffered as I would have. You can’t imagine how i cherish to be in contact with you and to read you. take care, seashell

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            1. Thank you 😀

              As I see it the best thing you give to others is by being yourself and then others can be themselves around you, and when you interact with people who are expressing who they are as is, inspiration flows both ways.

              So you being yourself with me, sharing your story and insights, that helps and inspires me, and I’m glad it flows both ways 😀

              Whenever you’ve been affected by a Narcissist, it’s important to see that in all the pain there is also a gift which can lead you through the pain into new territory of the self as you discover strengths and talents you might have missed otherwise.

              There are some types of therapy which use art as part of the healing process… You may find several passions coming together 🙂

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          2. Thank you Ursula.. I am so very grateful to you.. I told her I was getting more from this site.. its part of what upset her.. but what you wrote is so clear. that I am beginning to doubt myself must show I am not a narcissist..and you Ursula are the furtherest from boring of anyone I have ever met..you just know this territory so well and are passionate about it…you are a gift to this planet.. truely ((((-)))))) 🙂

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            1. Also so true.. I was just gobsmacked when she told me how hard my anger was for her to deal with…and that is not what you pay a therapist for.. but the good thing is it brought light to a sticky situation which I am now free of ……

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              1. To me that sort of thing sets off alarm bells, red flags, because this person is not a friend, with a friend that sort of discussion makes sense, you know, especially if your anger triggers something for them or they just don’t want to deal with it or whatever, it’s friendship, but this woman is a professional, of a profession which you can only practice after getting a degree, to get that degree you have to show you have grasped the training of being able to deal with the emotions of those to whom you will offer your services, services for which she is being paid, paid to deal with what she is saying she can’t deal with, and that is off. Even more off is her dumping on you her problems. All therapists have their own therapist, it’s a requirement of their profession, so she should be discussing this with her therapist not with her patient. She could have worded it in a way which would have been constructive, as in – I’m freaking out, sorry, let me give you a referral to a therapist who can actually offer you therapy and not more confusion and damage which you’ll then have to heal on top of what you’re already trying to heal.

                I’m getting bolshie 😉

                Glad you saw what was happening and made a very healthy choice. There you go, you’re in a very healthy place, so it was a useful experience because when you’re healthier than your therapist… that’s a big sign!

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            2. Thank you 😀

              Oh… did you post the poem you wrote about your relationship with a Narcissist on your blog too? It’s so beautiful and poignant, and so don’t forget to post it!

              And no, you’re not a Narcissist, and never will be. And that poem shows it!

              That particular therapist on the other hand… could just be egotistical, Narcissistic but not NPD.

              I bore myself when I talk too much about myself, especially if it’s old stuff I’ve already heard before 😉

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  17. First time caller etc.

    I have read your blog and let me first say, you are amazing. As for this little ‘rant’. Well hardly a rant, just a very honest statement of your feelings and in typical Saga Noren style, it offends some people. But hey, as you and Morgan so eloquently put it, ‘If the shoe fits, lace that bitch up.’

    Oh and another thing, well a million other things actually but one for now, as the ‘partner’ (Ugh I hate that word but sometimes no other suffices) anyway, as the partner of a child of narcissists your kind of brutal honesty (and I mean real raw honesty) is refreshing and helps anyone who has had contact with Narcissists or those afflicted with Narcissists to deal with that which they are going though.

    Anyway, I must depart momentarily, but don’t worry about me. I have my therapist on speed-dial.

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    1. Thank you 😀

      My post was a rant with rant expression on face included and your comment turned my ranting expression into a smiling one – which may be more deadly 😉

      I do worry about you though.

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  18. I can understand why this is upsetting. You make some good points.

    For my own peace of mind (and not really related to what you are saying), I am trying to accept the loss of the PR battle (ha, makes it sound like I am a public person; I am not), or at least to not have to win it. I don’t have to prove or disprove anything in my battle with a narcissist. I can accept my way of thinking (I am in a damaging/abusive relationship with a narcissist) and validate those thoughts by taking right action, rather than hold myself to an impossible burden of proof. It is enough I am being deprived of life, liberty, and happiness. It should be the right of everyone to walk away (safely, without fear) from a relationship they see as harmful. Unfortunately, we live in a judgmental society that is eager to cast stones, which causes victims to feel like they must prove themselves.

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    1. Thank you 😀

      Thank you for sharing, your story is exactly what I was trying – through rant – to say. That abusers keep abusing even when their victim frees themselves, more so because the abuser has lost control of their victim, and they are better at the PR side of it because they’ve had more practice, they know how to get people to believe their version of reality, which makes it harder for their victim to untangle themselves from the web of abuse – exactly what the abusers wants.

      And people, society, tend to accept what they’re told, it’s easier that way, and the abuser knows how tell people and society what they want to hear and will accept more easily, whereas the victim is so traumatised and relieved to have finally escaped the abuser and finally able to speak out about the abuse, that they tend to say things which are too starkly honest, and thus society and people don’t want to hear that because it triggers their own fears and issues.

      The proof people are willing to accept needs to be edited for popular acceptance and tied up in a bow, abusers have a lifetime supply of bows to make lies seem like proof.

      Well done on getting out, I know it took an enormous amount of strength, and real raw courage. To do it safely is even harder. Take care of yourself.

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      1. Yeah, I guess that’s it. The idea of escaping freely is such a sweet one, the rest of it just doesn’t seem like it will matter. It will probably seem more important at some point. I’d like to be at the point where I have the luxury of it being important. Still, an abuser can use popular opinion to harm you in very real ways. It’s a common threat, I think, that they will turn everyone against you, even up to the point that their family and friends will do you physical harm. Perhaps it;s an empty threat, but empty threats do their job just the same.

        I wouldn’t say I’m out. I don’t know if I can do it safely, but escaping safely is the ultimate goal. Should I be saying any of this online? Probably not. Sometimes I think that the more people know what’s going on, the safer I’ll be. Honestly, I’m winging things far more than I should be.

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        1. You asked a very good question – Should I be saying any of this online? – I ask myself that all the time.

          It took me ages to get around to breaking my silence, the habit of keeping things to myself is deeply ingrained. My experience as a child of two parents with NPD, two very clever story tellers who could sway the views of their ‘public’, having to put up with strangers coming up to me and telling me what was wrong with and bad about me because my parents had sold them a beautiful lie, made me realise that other people tend to only hear what they want to hear and that the truth is whatever makes them feel good about themselves.

          Narcissists are very adept at creating soap operas that other people can have a role in. One of the most appealing roles is – the saviour/protector/hero – so Narcissists play the victim and cry for help, and people fall for it because they want to rescue and be crowned a hero by the Narcissist. It’s a folie a deux only NPD style which means there’s a crowd of people who are sharing the delusions of the Narcissist and thinking it is real.

          When I first started out expressing myself ‘publicly’ online, I was terrified of doing it, every word I spoke sounded loud and it echoed. I was certain I’d regret it. Convinced it was probably worse than keeping quiet.

          What I’ve found doing things this way is –

          a) people don’t really listen because everyone is busy talking and hoping to be listened to.
          b) those who do hear for the most part hear it because it resonates with what they are feeling.
          c) it is the kind of self-therapy which heals a lot of stuff you didn’t know you had, or knew you had but were ignoring.

          The ripple effect in my life has been quite astounding. Blurting out my ‘crazy’ online has made me more confident inside myself and thus outside myself.

          Also, writing about Narcissists has had an impact I did not expect it to have on me, and I don’t mean by drawing attention to my blog. The rant on this post has opened my eyes to a few things about myself and others.

          And I agree about the sweet dream of being free.

          I went No Contact many years ago, but I was never truly free by doing that.

          Recently I’ve been having to deal with the Narcissists in my life and the mess they create PR and otherwise, and it’s stirred up a lot of stuff, including the fear of reprisal which could get physical. I’ve stopped running and am facing it head on which is difficult but worth it… I hope 🙂

          I am also winging it, in fact that’s how I do everything these days.

          The important thing is that you’ve made a break for freedom and are determined to succeed. That is the beginning of the journey where you take back your life, and it’s an evolutionary journey, whenever you reach a milestone and look back you realise how far you’ve come and how much you’ve changed.

          I’m glad you said this online, thank you for sharing. 🙂

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  19. Please don’t stop writing because of the ones who don’t understand or choose to try not to. You are an amazing blogger!!! No one is born evil, they just develop bad habits from somewhere or someone and it happens from there!

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    1. Thank you 😀

      I’m just expressing myself as always 😉 Sharing perhaps TMI. But hey, it’s my blog, my blog is me!

      Speaking of blogs… WOW! You’re evolving yours with style! Nice! Better than nice! Kudos!

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      1. Thank you, I appreciate that! I’m trying my best. I was in a funk yesterday, but that’s because I was in constant communication with a narcissist. I play xbox with this wonderful girl, but her husband is well.. a narcissist. He’s so mean and some of his comments are just.. UGH! It’s draining and it got me down and in a funk.

        I’m glad you’re expressing yourself. It IS your blog and you can do what you want. Speak your mind! Mind if I “steal” that picture? I’ll give you credit from where I thieved it from 😀

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        1. ‘Steal’ anything you want, no need for credit not to me anyway, I nabbed everything from the internet.

          Was the narcissist husband of your friend playing Xbox too? ’cause they are nightmares when they play games with you, as in actual games, they hate losing. I played a video game with a narcissist once and enjoyed beating him – it was a boxing game so doubly fun – he had a tantrum and decided the game was stupid. Never invited me over to his house again 😉

          Love your blog! Let the funk inspire you, that’s fuel for posts 😀

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    1. Thank you 😀

      I’m just having a ‘moment’. I’ll get over it and move on from it, but first I have to acknowledge it.

      I am going scale back on writing posts about NPD, but if anyone has a question via comment, I will answer it or admit I don’t know and direct them to someone who may have an answer.

      I know I don’t need to say this because you know this, but you’re the one helping yourself through me, my words, the ones which help, those are your words, your knowledge which is already within you speaking to you. That’s one of my passions, making sure people see their own personal wisdom and power. We get hypnotised into thinking we’re not as powerful or wise as we are, we’re encouraged to do that thing known as self-doubt. But we know.

      Take care, ((((hugs)))) back 🙂

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      1. Wow Upturned S, I have just discovered your blog through my good friend CZBZ. So happy you are here, writing!

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        1. Thank you very much 😀

          CZBZ is phenomal! I know she likes to be humble, and that just makes her all the more awesome! Her article is a brilliant tour de force! And I’m honoured to be a small part of it.

          Thanks for visiting and sharing, means a lot to me 🙂

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